Gates and Edging Out during the Glide

[DefectiveDave]

I've always had gate issues and I could never really get a good stack going into 1 ball; some might argue that I never got stacked at all going through the gates. Looking at video I can't argue with those people. Over time I just developed "methods" to deal with my lack of stack and maintain my outbound direction at shorter line lengths (28 and 32-off in my case) so I could limit the slack at one ball. I nailed down the timing so that my gates were consistent and repeatable, but the technique always sucked.

 

However, lately I've felt like my gates are really coming together. I feel slow coming into 1 ball with a tight line and the turn just seems to complete itself into a stacked position heading to 2 ball. Yet, I also feel like I'm putting less effort into my gates.

 

The only thing I've really changed is I decided to stay as wide as possible during the glide. I've been accomplishing this by simply trying to keep an edge out during the glide with tension on the rope. I'm not talking about a little bit of tension, I've been loading the line aggressively with probably 30-50 lbs of force, if not more (it's hard to gauge these things on the water). Then when it's time to turn-in I just go for it (hips from 10-2 to initiate) and it feels as though the force on the ski from edging out is released, throwing the ski wide. The effect is that I maintain width, my turn-in happens much faster and I am able to get into a decent stacked position while I'm still wide, giving me time to generate speed into the gate without much effort.

 

I'm RFF and use a 2-handed gate. I've always heard you should edge out during the glide to maintain width. I think every skier has heard that at some point. I thought I'd been doing it, but was I really? I would pull out and get into my glide and try to keep the line "tight", but thinking back on it I probably only had a couple of pounds on the line and on video I definitely wasn't maintaining width right before turn-in.

 

However, I've also heard several times that when you're edging out you should "keep the line tight", which I interpreted to be about the same thing as "no slack". This, combined with the fact that we call it a glide, is probably why before now I never really tried edging out aggressively during the glide and before the turn-in. It's also entirely possible that one man's "keep the line tight" feels quite aggressive to myself, it's all relative after all.

 

The thing is, I'm not sure if the aggressive edging out during the glide is what's truly helping my gates. I know something is, but it's entirely possible I'm misinterpreting the results. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Maybe the edging out has nothing to do with it and it has simply changed something else about my technique that is making the actual difference. I hoping to get to the bottom of this.

 

Do any ballers have insight into this particular issue? Do other RFF skiers feel like they are edging out pretty aggressively before the turn-in and is it something they feel is important? How about LFF skiers? Perhaps this concept only applies at the longer line lengths (32-off and below)?

 

It's easy to say, "if it works, keep doing it" and I fully intend to do so. However, I wonder if perhaps this might be one of those details that might not translate well in coaching given the relative nature of how we all perceive certain actions or queues.

[jimbrake]

yes

[DefectiveDave]

@jimbrake,

 

I see what you did there.

[jimbrake]

@DefectiveDave - ah, just messin'.

 

I've been working on the same thing, but I'm hesitant to add to your discussion, debate it, offer other view points because, well...my skiing sucks. All I know is that swinging to the top of the arc with a tight line, whether on your pull out or in the course, is a good thing. It's hard to know what you mean by "aggressive". Got any video? Keeping a slight edge away as you come up out of your lean during your pullout is good, but "aggressive"? Not sure. Would like to see it.

[Andre]

@DefectiveDave

Did you also change the timing for when you turn in for the gates ?

When do you turn in?

Will try to edge out until turn in tomorrow morning and will let you know if it gets better!

 

(Wish i could answer your question but my gate sucks. Mid 35 on a really good day...)

[DefectiveDave]

@jimbrake ,

 

It is hard to say what aggressive really means, it's all relative. I think to me it just feels aggressive compared to what I've been doing. If I stick with it a few years, I probably wouldn't even think about it or notice it. Unfortunately I don't have any video. It takes up valuable skiing time and afterwards I get obsessive trying to nitpick what's happening in the video, haha.

 

@Andre ,

 

I didn't change the timing, but I have been playing around with the pullout intensity lately to either carry more or less speed at turn-in. Overall, on average I would say that I've reduced my pullout intensity somewhat because it feels more comfortable. I feel more load on the rope as my speed starts to fall below the boat speed and at that point I'm forced to edge out pretty aggressively (from my perspective) for a brief period of time to maintain width. Then when it's time to go I just initiate and it's like the energy stored loading the rope and edging out with the ski is released, popping everything into place for the turn-in (kind of like a spring unloading).

 

I don't really have a set time to turn-in, I just watch the gates and go when it feels right. If you get a chance to try it tomorrow morning I do think the speed in the glide is pretty important. For me, if I'm going too fast it's hard to feel the load and edge out effectively. So if it's not working out at first, you might want to try pulling out earlier or with less intensity to reduce the speed, just a little bit, before turn-in.

 

This is probably just a comfort zone thing as I find it hard to believe that having less speed is superior to having more speed, but it's at least something to consider.

[gregy]

I'm LFF. I try to keep some tension on my outside arm as I glide to keep tension on the rope, but not much. I don't try to turn in quickly. I pull out qradually and try to make smooth turn in while I still have some speed. Try to build angle into the wakes and time it so the boat picks you up after you have established you angle. But make sure you don't turn into slack.

[DefectiveDave]

I've been trying this for quite a while now and in retrospect I think my original beliefs on the reasons for the efficacy of the approach are flawed. I think in the process of changing my glide I was simply generating more speed in my glide before turn-in (sub-consciously) which allowed me to get into a better stacked position.

 

I essentially stopped trying this the last few weeks and just started trying to get more speed in the glide with much better results. I figured I would follow up just in case anyone were to read this in the future.

[AdamCord]

@DefectiveDave You're on the right track. Generally edging out before the turn in is needed when you haven't generated enough speed in the pullout, and you are falling back on the boat too soon. I find myself doing this when I've mis-timed the gates. It's much better to be aggressive on the pullout and get HIGH on the boat early, so you can be gradual with the turn in and build angle slowly, while the boat moves away from you and keeps the line tight.

 

The trick on the pullout is to move forward in the direction you want to go and not back away from the boat. This is done by pressuring the front of the ski and driving the left tip bevel into the water, and rolling to the left while keeping the handle pinned to your hips. If you can do that part right you can generate a ton of speed very quickly putting you way up on the boat with plenty of time to make a progressive turn in for the gates.

 

Notice the short but efficient pullout gets me high on the boat, and I have tons of time to build into angle as the boat leaves me as I move for the gates. The end result is I'm miles early to 1 and have a tight line at the finish of the turn:

 

[lkb]

@AdamCord is it optimum to be gliding at boat speed when you start your turnin? Or is there some benefit to try being a little faster than the boat? Also what do you use as a reference for initiating the pullout?

[AdamCord]

@lkb watch where the shock tube is moving relative to the boat as I drop in for the gates. You can see that it's already starting to drop back as I make my move to turn in. This is how you can tell my down-course speed is slower than the boat.

 

This is the purpose of getting high on the boat with a lot of speed early. You can stay up over the ski and just wait for the boat to leave you as you lead the ski with your body and let the ski angle build on its own. If you try to turn in while you're moving faster than the boat, you're either going to turn into slack, or you're going to need to roll to the tail and turn the ski into too much angle in order to keep the line tight.

 

You need to be moving slower than the boat when you start your turn in. Then as you get to where the rope is less than about 45 degrees to the boat, you can really load the rope and the ZO will just whip you through the center without you ever having to create a ton of load on the ski. In a perfect world we would keep this timing with the boat through the whole course.

 

For the pullout I start when the boat is maybe 10 feet before the green buoys. I like to pull out really hard really early, and have lots of time to settle into the glide and turn in.

[lkb]

thanks @AdamCord

[Wish]

The GUT gate is a thing of beauty when you nail it the first time. The nifty side effect;...because you're starting so high on the boat and allowing the boat to pull away..some, when it's time to initiat the turn in, the angle to the gates is such that they look a mile wide. As in ... impossible to miss.

[mwetskier]

andy mapple once addressed turning in for the gate at a speed that felt too fast and he replied that no matter how fast he was going if he had a tight light line he could turn the ski.

[DefectiveDave]

Thanks @AdamCord, @Wish, and @mwetskier,

 

I very much appreciate the advice. For my part, I've been trying my best to maximize my energy entering the course. I've been thinking of it as:

 

Potential Energy: Some function of height on the boat

Kinetic Energy: Function of the skiers velocity

 

Both are built during the pullout using the boat's energy through the rope. However, as soon as we stop pulling out we are losing energy to drag. Ideally, I would think that I want to get as wide as possible very quickly and turn-in at as high of a speed as I can manage without slack.

 

One thing that seems to make a difference building energy during the pullout is where I start relative to the port wake. If I start closer to the wake I have a larger work zone and can build more speed. However, since I'm starting closer to the wake I have a lower initial starting energy.

 

In the past, I thought that it was an equivalent trade off, but at the shorter line lengths its starting to seem more efficient starting closer to the wake. I'm still not certain of this, but it seems plausible.

[mwetskier]

its my take that immediately before you begin to pull out you are standing more or less erect but when you begin your pullout your body must lean to the left - and getting from an erect position to a leveraging lean consumes some amount of time and space.

 

Your goal is to convert as much of the potential energy of your forward momentum (plus the boat's connection to you) into outbound direction and speed as possible. the closer you are to the center of the wake the less potential energy you waste during this transitional lean. i believe this is why the current best slalom skier in the world initiates his pullout from the right edge of the left hand trough.

 

[AdamCord]

Well the real goal with the gate is to generate as much speed into the wakes/gate as you can. I've played around with where to start the pullout. While I agree that starting closer to center can give you a longer runway to get up on the boat, the difference is pretty trivial compared to HOW you pull out. Efficiency is important here.

 

It's not immediately obvious why it matters, though, other than efficiency=good, but there's more than that to it.

 

I'm not sure if I can explain this clearly without drawing it out, but I'll try. If you are behind the boat when you start your pullout, you can pull directly against the line while leaning left, and you'll go left. If you pull out very softly and gradually, you will need to keep pulling all the way to the wide point where you will need to start your turn in for the gates from. This also tends to force you to the tail of the ski as the ski "digs" against the boat. It's generally easy to see when someone is doing this by watching the water break on the ski. Back=bad.

 

The main problem is that the wider you are while pulling, the less effective your pull will be at creating downcourse speed. The end result is that if you pull out slow/gradual, you may be able to get to a wide point, but the moment you let up on your pullout, you start falling back on the boat. By the time you switch to the other edge and start your pull for the gates, you are actually much narrower and moving much slower than you should have been. This slower speed will always force you onto the back of the ski, causing excess load without the needed speed to go with it. In the end you get shot late and narrow into 1 ball.

 

If instead you take advantage of your position when more directly behind the boat, and do all your accelerating within the first 30 degrees or so, you can create enough speed to get very high on the boat while riding a flat ski. From there it's very easy to stay up over your front foot and lead the ski into the turn for the gates. This keeps you from ever dropping into a "hole", which will spike the load but not increase your speed. Instead your entire path from the high point on the boat to the first wake is like a runway, where the speed just builds, and because you never fell back on the ski, the ski load is minimal.

 

I apologize if that's really hard to follow. This is one of the subjects we spend several hours on at the Denali Summits using whiteboards and other visuals that make it much easier to understand.

[Drago]

@AdamCord ^ spot on and very understandable

[DefectiveDave]

@AdamCord,

 

Following up on your comments, to maximize the energy for the gate, ideally we would want to pull out as efficiently and intensely as possible for just the right amount of time. Summarizing ways to potentially accomplish that in order of importance:

 

1) Lean forward and left to move the ski efficiently

2) Pull out with as much intensity as possible until reaching approximately 30-40 degrees relative to the boat path (seems like 1.5 seconds or so)

3) Start as close as possible to centerline (gives more time to pull out before it becomes inefficient)

 

Gives me plenty of stuff to try next time I'm out on the water. Thanks!

[Wish]

Something I did on a plane a while back. Might help. And yes that is Cord. He is robotic with this...in a good way.

.

[Chef23]

@wish that is awesome thanks for that. @rayn watch the video above.

[Skoot1123]

Bump. I have been struggling (self proclaimed work in progress) with my gate this year (trying different things to see what works for me) and came across this gem of a thread. Re-read for a great refresh. I’ll be putting into practice this gate approach tonight.

[Stevie Boy]

I struggle with the get out super wide early and slow turn in, mainly because the speed drops off too quickly for me, it's getting better, keeping shoulders square, I start slow with my ankles and then increase intensity quickly up on to the front of my ski, this method allows me to get wide but have enough speed to turn and hook up with the boat nicely.

[Zman]

@Stevie Boy You "start slow with your ankles"?

[Skoot1123]

I tried some of this in my set tonight - I’ll admit I have a bit of work to do. Feels like I have the right speed into one ball but my turn just falls apart and I end up pulling back around the buoy instead of making a turn. This is super frustrating. I want to get it right - but it is hard, need some video. Gotta see what I’m doing wrong. Great illustrations @Wish

[Stevie Boy]

@Zman I suppose it can be looked at another way, I think ankles, but you could say that , really I start to move my hips outbound .

[Skoot1123]

I think I am finally starting to get a little grasp of the GUT gate. I have more work and timing to do but think this will really bode well - especially at shorter line lengths. (32 and 35 off)

 

I do have a question though, is this feeling of the gate correct? - I turn in, obtain my angle, and then hold that position into the first wake and try to ride the rope out to the buoy (on my inside edge). I am barely pulling (at least that’s what it feels like) into the first wake.

[BrennanKMN]

https://denaliskis.com/pages/gut-gate

 

This is a pretty solid video as well.

[Skoot1123]

Any feedback on my question? It seems that if I get in the right position I don’t have to do what I call “active pulling” past the white water/through the trough of the first wake.

[Wish]

@Skoot1123 compared to what you probably did for a gates in the past, yes, you will feel less load and not have to work as hard or as long. It is the experience I had and currently a skier on my lake is having. If done right, the gates will look a mile wide to shoot through and you will get an earlier edge change being an outcome as you draw more speed on the down swing. It's all about efficiency and where you start the pendulum swing. You're obviously more efficient now. Personally I can tell when a pass for me is going to be easy or a huge line loaded PITA based on my pull out for the gate glide. It all starts right behind the boat and your position on the ski. I spent many many sets just shooting gates and ball one maybe ball 2. Drill drill drill.

[Skoot1123]

Thanks @wish! Glad to know I am not alone. After my awful set last night I need to drill drill drill this into my head. It seems now that I just have to manage the intensity for each new line length. All part of the learning process.

[jhughes]

@Skoot1123 lean, not pull. There is no pull, there is only lean.

[Skoot1123]

@jhughes - yes. That is the proper terminology. Thanks for correcting.

 

What is amazing is that when a ski is setup properly it builds speed without having to do “extra work” - like pulling.

[Skoot1123]

The GUT gate is a true thing of beauty. Really worked on it tonight after a day off yesterday to recalibrate myself. @AdamCord stated the gate turn in perfectly earlier in this thread.

 

@wish - now I know what you mean by a mile wide. Gotta love it.