Boats & slalom deep starts

[kirkbauer]

Some quick background on me. I grew up on boats when I was young, then took a break, then started skiing when I was in high school, then took a ~20 year break. I just turned 40 and am really getting back into water sports, and although I'm messing with wake boarding, I still really enjoy going fast on a single ski. I actually started skiing a few days per summer two years ago and I bought a 71" Radar P6. At the time I was about 215# and not in great shape. This has motivated me and after 1.5 years of strength training and eating well, I'm now at 200# with a lot more muscle. I think the ski should be good for me, if not a bit too large.

 

Almost all of my slalom experience was on a low-profile boat with a 120hp outboard. I used to actually tuck into a ball, with my head way forward, and effectively submerge under water for the first few seconds of each start. I was also a lot lighter back then, somewhere in the 160-170# range. And on a smaller ski.

 

My issue now is that I'm having trouble with deep starts, and I want two bits of advice. The first advice I need is how to get up more reliably with my current boat. The second advice I need is how much better a different boat would be.

 

I'm currently in a boat club, and the boat I have been using is a Chaparral 246 SSi Surf Edition. It's a surf/wake boat, not a ski boat. Obviously the wake is a bit large, but what I'm more concerned about is I only have about a 50% success rate at getting up behind the boat. I'm constantly adjusting how far back I lean, but when I don't get up, either I am pulled over the front of the ski, or I lose the rope due to the excessive drag. I'm sure part of it is my technique, but I don't have anybody to watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong. My wife is driving the boat (this is new for her) and has been flooring it (more on that below). It definitely doesn't help that I'm not in great shape, as my success rate drops after a few attempts.

 

Just two weeks ago, I had the pleasure to be pulled by an experienced driver on an actual direct-drive ski boat (I think it was an older Malibu). Note that I was tired at this point, having already done two ski runs on my boat, and then a third where it took me 3 tries to get up. I got up almost effortlessly. And again. And the third time I fell because I stood up too quick (according to the experience skiers in the boat). And the fourth time I got up too. So 3 out of 4 tries I was up, and I was already really tired. So obviously either because of the driver and/or because of the boat, I had a much easier time than I normally do. On this boat it took *longer* to get up (several seconds), but it was much *easier* on me.

 

So last weekend I had my wife try a 3-second increase in throttle on our boat, instead of flooring it. And I got up much easier than normal. So I thought I had figured it all out. But then I tried 3 more times with a slow start and couldn't get up. Then two more times with a full-throttle and couldn't get up. And then I gave up due to being tired. So apparently I haven't figured out the secret.

 

So, back to my original question: without having somebody watching me to give advice, are there any suggestions on what I can do or my wife can do to make it easier to deep start on my ski?

 

Secondly, am I choosing the wrong boat? My boat club also has a Coach tritoon with a 250hp outboard. The owner of the club said it would be better than the Chapparal for slalom because it planes easier. I thought he was crazy but now I'm wondering if I should give it a try for a day?

 

Thirdly, I'm very tempted to buy a slightly used Ski Nautique 200 OB which seems to be the best new ski boat out there, with good storage for skis and good seating for the family. Would this make a huge difference for me on deep starts, in addition to the much smaller wake? If so, which engine would be best to get in that boat (I see there are 3 engine options).

[Jmoski]

There are several threads on deep water starts with good advice - let me know if you can't find them via search or just scrolling through recent posts.

 

In regards to which matters most, I would rank it in priority order of: skier technique, driver technique, and lastly the boat (assuming the boat has ample hp). Don't get me wrong, driver and boat do make a noticeable difference - especially if you haven't quite got it going.

 

When you start do you have both feet in the bindings or are you dragging the back foot?

 

If the rope attachment point on the boat your currently running is at the back - that's definitely making it harder as when the boat rears up on take off, the back will actually drop down for a moment - hence you deal with more drag (from the slight downward pull) and for a longer time.

 

In regards to driving - try putting the boat in gear (just barely moving) for a few seconds and then hit the throttle - stay with the more gentle throttle up though. Dropping the hammer with a powerful boat is a sure fire way to pull something.

 

Hope this helps

[oldjeep]

Depends on you, I prefer a full throttle dump behind a ski boat. Can't stand it when people feather it up.

[6balls]

I like it hot, and start dragging one foot....juse easier on my back. A lot of 2 foot skiers, though, don't like it that way...more gradual and progressive. So a preference issue. If you can afford a SN 200 OB...great boat for sure. I'd get the 6.0. The 5.7 does the job but runs higher RPM to do so and for me the pull is not as smooth.

[ScottScott]

I don't think the boat is going to be a big factor as long as there is enough power (as was mentioned before) and sounds like all of the boat options you mentioned are. Tucking in tight, getting ski as close to surface and horizontal as possible will reduce drag (thats where dragging a foot helps, but I haven't gone that route as I have also seen people talk of pulling groins etc.) I use RTP but leave both feet in, and like a gentle progressive pull, of course my boat is a pretty slow pull at full throttle so thats what I am used to.

[escmanaze]

So here is my opinion, but I'm no expert teacher either, I just have my opinions from watching lots of people over the years.

 

Some of the people who have the hardest time getting up on a wakeboard are the old school skiers. Old school skiers with old school tiny skis and slow boats got used to dragging their ski through the water for at least 10 yards before even beginning to think about standing up.

 

Wakeboards came about, and everybody had their opinion, and after a while, I developed mine: For the "getting up" part of wakeboarding, don't coach or say anything, just tell the person to stand up...that easy.

 

You see, with a wakeboard, you have tons of surface area, and if you try to drag that thing through the water like an old school slalom guy, you don't have a chance. You instead have the use the surface area to your advantage and just stand up the second you have tension on the rope and rely on that surface area to keep you afloat while the boat gets up to speed (it will).

 

Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but compared to the old school, skis are bigger and fatter (more like a wakeboard) and boats are faster (the 0-10 speed of a 200 is ridiculous compared to the 0-10 speed of my dad's old Reinell with a 90 HP outboard.) I think that with bigger skis (like a P6) and faster boats (definitely a 200, but your SSi is probably still pretty fast if you hammer the gas) that people need to move away from the old slalom techniques of getting up by dragging forever stay in a ball etc. etc. and they need to move toward the wakeboarding technique of basically just pulling yourself one time quickly up on to your ski right as the boat starts up and then trust that in the time that you can use the rope to pull yourself from a sitting position to a standing position, that the boat will be going fast enough for the larger surface area of the new big skis to support your weight.

 

So then what is the technique for getting up? Literally just stand up. Imagine you had a rope tied to the wall and you are sitting on the floor with shoes with good grip. You would just give the rope one good pull to get your body up, and there you are, that's it.

 

Below are a couple videos of me and my dad skiing behind my 97 nautique with the pro-ski 5.7 at elevation (interpreted: even a 200 with a 5.7 should be way faster 0-10 than this boat). On mine, the boat doesn't even get full gas right at the start. I would like full gas as it's easier to get up, but my perfect pass behaves better if I don't, so I take the slower, tougher start as a compromise. Still, you can see in these videos that the rope gets tight, we give it one good push with the legs and pull with the arms for a concept no more complicated than "just stand up" and by the time we get there, the boat is already easily to a speed where it can support our weight (me 175, him 185) with our fairly large skis (me 69" senate, him 69" P6.)

 

 

 

And one last thing: Don't underestimate the help of a tower at getting up. If you're worried about competitive skiing, stack, leverage position, etc. then a tower is useless. But if you are just trying to get up and have some fun skiing, you'll be amazed at how the taller tow point of a tower (or pylon) makes it tons easier to get up and there is much less drag for staying up as well. The majority of my family nowadays ski from a tower tow point because it is just so easy and fun. Assuming you have a tower on your SSi, make sure you are hooking there instead of the low tow point, and if you get a 200, I would heavily consider a tower.

[elr]

The tip I give to folks having a hard time getting up is simply "keep the ski in front of you." And, yes a DD boat is better for deep water starts because it gets on plane faster than t.

[wannabeballer]

I think its great that skiing has helped motivate you to get stronger and healthy. I was 39 (now 41) when I started to learn how to deep water start and it was the hardest thing that I have ever had to learn physical wise. Like yourself I learned on a Larson i/o and probably took 30-40 tries to get it. I found that the use of a deep v handle really helped and for a month or so, then I never looked back. The problem is once you get it the drive to learn and the load on your body and how it makes you feel is addictive. So the best thing that I ever did was purchase a tournament boat in my case a SN196. This sport is so different behind the proper boat and I cant say enough of how it has allowed me to progress and fueled me to stay on the water learning and pushing myself the sport is awesome and as I have found the people that are also into it are great people too. Anyway its awsome to hear that you are pushing yourself to do it and you will get it no problem, so many people give up and say it is too hard after a few tries. Get a ski boat for the health of it ;) it keeps you strong.

[kirkbauer]

This is all awesome advice so far, thank you everybody. I didn't even think about using the top mount for skiing; I thought it was just for wakeboarding. I have been using the lower back mount this whole time. I will try the upper mount first thing this weekend and see how much of a difference it makes.

 

I'm also going to focus on getting the ski flatter and closer to the surface. For the record I don't drag a foot and never have. It just seems so much harder to me. But perhaps I should try it.

 

To be honest I think I'm on the path to buying a Ski Nautique 200 OB, but I'm going to likely wait a while. We have a 5-year contract with our boat club (4.5 years left) so probably after that's done, although it isn't super expensive to get out of it. But my wife will want a newer boat, so that is looking like it would cost me about $50k which I'd rather save up for :)

[BrennanKMN]

I couldn't agree more with @escmanaze

 

Granted I am not a big heavy skier, but I have the driver roll into the throttle and by about 15 MPH I am starting to stand (less than 2 seconds).

 

I think far too many people trying to learn a deep water start for one or two skis make the mistake of not standing fast enough. The faster you are up on top of your ski the faster you are stable. Use your legs and arms and pop right up.

[Marco]

@kirkbauer Another tip that might help is don't feel like you have to start with your ski pointing straight ahead at 12:00. That often leads to falling over on your wrong edge. If you are LFF, start in the water with your ski off to the left at about 11:00, 1:00 if you are RFF. That will help you balance. As the boat starts to pull you, your ski will automatically straighten out. Also, be sure to have the rope on the correct side of your ski. To the right for LFF, to the left for RFF.

[kirkbauer]

Thank you... I'm RFF so I'll give it a shot at the 1:00 position.

[scorban2]

As someone who skis behind both an i/o and a tournament boat, the difference to me is night and day. Whether you hit it hard, or roll into it on an I/o, the boat is also struggling to get on plane between 10 -15 mph, at which point its hard for you to stand up. The fact that a DD ski boat planes out so much faster means that the acceleration is more constant, and you're up on the water much faster.

 

I'll also second the deep V rope (or cheater rope as we call it). It's what I learned with, and what we teach everyone with. Helps new folks keep the ski in front of them before you start standing.

[Tom351]

Also, don't put too much weight on back foot, you can still lean away but keep weight on the front foot to "help" the boat (and yourself) by getting more ski in the water.....I only ski behind direct drives...except this one time behind a jet ski (obviously an extreme case)- on a wide old wooden ski from a combo set (with NO rocker)- I got up on first try after what felt like an eternity of fighting to keep the ski in front of me, but the main thing that stood out to me was how the jet ski would not accelerate past about 10mph until I trimmed the nose of the ski down a bit to reduce the load. Just remember: more ski on the water means more planing surface area and less drag. That being said, I'm not sure if I would have gotten up on my normal ski...maybe we would still be stuck at 8mph trying to plane out.

[Than_Bogan]

I don't think anybody mentioned the prop above. Most non-ski boats have a prop that is selected mainly for top-end speed. In most cases, that prop has awful torque. A prop that allows the boat to generate more torque may pull a skier up totally differently -- and usually much better.

 

In a past life, I routinely skied behind a 70hp Boston Whaler. With the "factory" prop, it may have literally been impossible to get up on a single ski with both feet in. With a prop that sacrificed top-end to get more torque, it was pretty doable (if a little slow).

 

Another tip is to move the crew as close to the bow as possible when taking off. This is surprisingly helpful to make it plane out sooner.

[oldjeep]

Good point on the prop. When I used to ski behind a 19ft i/o we switched to a 4 blade prop for a better hole shot.

[Ski_Dad]

I have the exact same ski and I'm around 220. Still a very intermediate skier. I do have a direct drive now, but came from outboards that were just adequately powered. On the outboard we just dropped the hammer. I find that a progressive pull gets me up the best on my DD boat. Maybe 3 seconds to half throttle. I also make sure my ski tip is tipped forward toward boat.

 

I really like the new 13" Masterline custom handle i got this year. I feel that was a huge help on my deep water starts bc the handle just feels right. I get up palms down and the switch to baseball grip once I get up.

[TEL]

Just because I am proud of her my girl friend at the age of 50 something if she reads this she might kill me (58). Never skied in her life got up on one ski on her 5th try on an old combo at that. With both feet in and went all the way around the lake. She is already looking at slalom skies she says I created a monster (yay for me). I told her to join BOS so watch for her posts

[sunvalleylaw]

You know, having been raised behind old outboards, some very small where we had to drag a leg, and then behind 115's and 120's, etc., when we got out new DD, I missed a few starts. Also behind other's boats. I am a double boot guy. As some have mentioned here, a lot just want to throw the hammer down. I guess because I am not used to that, sometimes I will let that pull me forward then lose the handle. In training my wife and family, I discovered that I like it feathered a touch, but not too much. Also, "In gear" in my DD gives more pull than I want as compared with the old outboard. I prefer to bump it for a decent line tension prior to hitting it rather than just put it in gear. I suppose that depends on each boat and how the idle is set.

 

Then the other key for me seems to be to let the ski hang or fade left, as far as 10:30 or 11:00 as I see @Marco mention above (I am LFF) and let the first tug of the line pull the ski straight. If I try to hold it straight up, I can get pulled out of position somehow.

 

Another key for me is to keep my knees bent and let the ski plane before standing up up. That is an easier start for me as compared with standing on the ski too much to begin with. I had a blown L4/L5 disc a few years ago, and try to minimize force where I can. If I can avoid resisting or fighting the boat, I will.

[dhofert]

@OldboyII I noticed that about the pro' s too. I think there are 2 reasons for that. 1. they are way lighter then most of us i'm sure. 2. they are pros! But seriously I started to nail more of my starts after watching my first few pro streams online. The biggest thing I figured out was keeping my hands under water on the starts seemed to help me. I don't know if it really matters but it has seemed to help me. Also, taking tips from here about staying balled up as well.

[escmanaze]

@OldboyII Here are my comments / thoughts.

 

1. Head above water: Where did anybody recommend putting your head underwater to get up? I don't think this is critical at all. If you're on a small ski and a slow boat, I don't think you have much choice except to go underwater for a second, but behind fast boats with a decent size ski in deep enough water, I never plan to get my head wet.

 

2. legs straight: I think this goes back to my explanation of old school versus new school. Again if I have a fast enough boat, deep enough water, and a big enough ski, then I find it actually easier to start with straight legs, and like I said in my post "just stand up". "Just standing up" is even easier to do if your legs are already straight. However, if I have a small ski or a slow boat where I know I'm going to need to drag for a while, then I'm going to need to bend my legs a lot in order to not have the ski go left or right on me while I am in the water dragging. Having straight legs while dragging in the water creates distance that creates leverage that makes it so there is too much leverage for you to overcome and keep the ski straight while dragging it through the water. But if you are just standing up immediately, that's not something you need to worry about. The more you have a problem with your ski going left or right, the more you need to bring it close to you. The more you have a problem with generating power to stand up, the more you need to get it far away from you (because your legs are more powerful when they are closer to full extension.)

 

Long story short, I think in our current day and age of big skis and fast boats, more people should get up just like the lady in the video you show. Instead, too often, they are stuck getting bad advice trying to make it harder than it is just because it used to have to be hard.

 

Again, just my two cents. I'm no pro teacher, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ;)

[Jmoski]

So when skiing this morning I paid closer attention to how I start:

 

I suck my rear foot under my butt, knees bent with my chest over my knees, when the boat goes I push back to hold that athletic stance until the ski planes.

 

I'm lighter than you (175lbs) but I am up well before my 196 has planed.

[OldboyII]

The post about women pro's start was a bit of a humor...

It is obvious that 95kg man can't get up with a style of 55kg young lady.

First reason is that he is already has billiard-ball haircut and do not care about it.

Second reason is that we are talking about hydrodynamics: all functions are not linear - small differences produce big effect (in fact - square big)

Example: 0.2" in normal life is ridiculously small, whereas this is a difference between Vapor and Senate and it changes all.

I'm 95 kg and my start (behind any boat) is relatively effortless. All what I do: fully bend hips, knees & ankles. Keep ski above the water. Relax and live force only in fingers. Follow the boat. If I forget about one of these elements or do it "halfway"- I fail.

[OldboyII]

Somehow my last post here disappeared, is it possible to restore it?

(Thanks!)

[kirkbauer]

I wanted to share an update. I tried the 250hp tritoon on Friday and getting up was super easy, but kind of slow, like the Malibu ski boat I experienced. I did really focus on my position as well (more on that later). Then yesterday I was on the big heavy wake boat again, but with the upper attachment point, and a more experienced driver. The driver accelerated slowly (perhaps 2s to half throttle) until he saw my ski plane and then he floored it. It wasn't quite as easy as the tritoon, but it was much better than normal.

 

My theory is that in response to getting slammed by the big wake boat I have been leaning back more and more and putting my ski more and more vertical, in order to fight the boat. Now thanks to advice here I really focused on keeping my ski fairly horizontal, and keeping the pull of the boat down. It seems obvious in hindsight but I think that did the trick.

 

I of course don't get the awesome ski wake from either boat. The wake boat has a "table" behind it with fairly steep drop-offs. The tritoon has four tiny little wakes, however they are kind of "hard" when you go through them. I'm not sure how to describe that.

[dhofert]

@ScottScott that was so me last year! This year I ditched the trainer rope on the first attempt and never looked back. I still miss one or two here and there but am much more consistent.

[lazzn]

Biggest thing that I notice when going from my collegiate team's Mastercraft to my family's Chris Craft I/O is that as @Than_Bogan was saying the prop is not meant for a torque-y hole shot, and combining that with the rear mount point of most I/Os, my ski and I won't plane until the boat planes and the engine gets a little less load from the boat and can take off. It sure makes for a fun fight and also teaches discipline in deep ups; getting up is like nothing when I go back to a ski boat. The position to fight the boat in is hard to describe, definitely more of a feel thing, but I find that usually I have a lot of weight on my front foot and am halfway between standing and staying tucked. Once everything planes out I've pushed myself up.