Good use of ZBS rule

[lpskier]

G2 at Nationals. Variable wind tending to be a head wind off the dock. A little gusty for Alexis Michler's set. She opens with 30/-22, comes back with a tail wind at 30/-28, then moves up to 32/-28 ((32 is top speed in G2) as her headwind pass and runs it. -32 as a tailwind pass, gets 1 and takes the lead. Smart use of the ZBS rule.

[Horton]

ZBS for kids always made sense

[eleeski]

And old guys!

 

Eric

[Not_The_Pug]

And Wife's!

[Drago]

and middle-aged guys

And women

And .....

[eleeski]

@Horton gave me and Kevin a disagree? While I think it's great that a G2 uses ZBS to match her developing skills to a good performance, I don't understand why it's wrong to encourage a spouse or to recover from an injury. Happy spouses support purchases of new skis, new boats and travel to tournaments. Old guys who suffer deterioration might not be physically able or safe at higher speeds. (Note that age divisions are made to best match the physical changes as we age - not to give more medals.) We want to encourage everybody to enjoy their rides!

 

Eric

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

I'm pretty sure Horton's parole conditions mandate a certain rate of disagreeing with you, Eric.

[Horton]

@eleeski at the top end of the older divisions the ZBS rule has caused more heartburn than it is worth. For every skier that thinks it is a godsend there is another that is spitting nails mad about it.

[skispray]

Remind me again, if someone is skiing in an older men's division where the max speed is 32 mph, does ZBS allow for people in the division to ski 34 mph for extra buoys?

 

If so, then I think ZBS would make a lot more sense if we did two things in conjunction with it. Don't allow for skiing at speeds above the division maximum and change the age divisions so that the only age cutoff is from below. That is, M1 is the 18+ division, M2 is the 25+ division, M3 is 35+, and so on.

 

That way someone that's 50 that wants to ski 36 mph can do so by skiing M2 and competing against 25-35 year olds. Or if they want to ski 34 mph but still against younger bucks then ski in M3.

 

Thay way the divisions are speed based; people don't have to worry about getting beat by someone willing to go faster than they feel safe going, given their age and people that are more elite for their division can choose to ski down a division in search of more competition and prestige. In this context I think ZBS makes a lot more sense because it would come into play more for the reasons stated in the original post and less for someone that wants to do something totally different than their division traditionally allows.

[eleeski]

Reasons for ZBS underspeed: Allows time to adapt to new speeds.

Allows injury recovery.

Shortening the line is fun.

 

Reasons against ZBS underspeed: Removes incentives for skiers to learn the new top speed.

Allows gaming the conditions and competition to a skier's advantage.

Skiing is a serious sport with a history of tradition.

 

Reasons for ZBS overspeed: Allows skiers to ski at world speeds when AWSA speeds don't match.

Allows skiers to try other speeds to consider other divisions (like Open or Masters).

For some individuals, it's safer to go faster.

 

Reasons against ZBS overspeed: Creates incentives to ski at speeds deemed unsafe by age division data.

Gives a significant advantage to skiers who have just slowed down over the skiers who have been training slower for years. (Youth already confers an advantage.)

Creates incentives to go faster, not shorter. Spectators like shortline.

 

It's worth giving the ZBS a fair try. The only critical change needs to allow the overspeed for skiers chasing world competition spots in the L tournaments. That's easier than adjusting age divisions.

 

@skispray 's idea of allowing going down in age is a really good one - especially if one can try out the speed in tournaments beforehand. But that's a good idea regardless of ZBS. Actually needs ZBS in case a skier gets hurt and has to ski out their underage year.

 

I'm going to start shortening at slower speeds. Hopefully I'll get to enjoying the shortline rush without destroying my new hip.

 

Eric

[LeonL]

@skispray in answer to your question, yes if Class C, (if the LOC approves) no if otherwise. This brings up a scoring question. You senior scorers out there. If in a class c the hypothetical skier mentioned by @skispray does choose to ski 34 and the LOC approves does the scorer do something different to override rule 10.06© and implement 10.06(a.3)? This was sort of touched on in another post I started with negligible response. The question in that on is rule 4.02(c.2).

[Jody_Seal]

I can say it is no fun going to a event and falling on ones opener due to injury and trying to ski max speed. having had a rough last fall and injuring a shoulder I have been skiing at 52K instead of 55K. I realize I take a 6 buoy hit but at least I am running a few passes. Taking that 6 buoy hit should not be an issue to anyone but it seems it is to some. I think it is more because that's how many of the nay sayer's have been brought up and brought into the sport.

ZBS has created a degree of inclusion as i have seen this last season a few skiers come back into the sport and have learned how to ski better on shorter lines. Also the ZBS is a great tool for junior transition skier's coming up into older divisions and having to make big speed jumps.

I dont not agree with the ability to ski faster then max speed in any division but it was retained and credited in class C events and that can off set and impact rankings.

Now in men 6 that is still a 55K division I will try and go back to max speed but if the enjoyment is poor doing so I will slow back down.

[Horton]

I do not think anyone really hates the idea of shortening at a slower speed. It is the over speed stuff that has made some folks really really made.

[LeonL]

@Jody_Seal then you interpret 10.06(a.3) to mean that at Class C and the LOC's discretion, if one skis above division max he/she gets credit for the buoy count of that higher speed? That's what I have thought all along this year. I have asked a local scorer how they can do that. See previous post by me. She didn't know, and recommended that I ask Jeff Clark. Jeff says that 10.06© is the rule that applies with no mention of the other rule. I have since asked him to define 10.06(a.3) then. Awaiting answer. I thought this was the rub and the rule was then restricted to Class C?

[MISkier]

@LeonL, a scorer in a class C can apply the commensurate credit for higher than max speed in two ways:

 

1. The skier selects the higher speed on the opening pass.

2. The skier "opts up" to the higher speed. In this scenario, the scorer actually uses the Opt Up button and can then apply the correct speed and rope length chosen. The skier will get the correct credit.

[LeonL]

@MISkier I'm still unsure about the two different rules. According to your scenario the skier would seem to always get extra credit. Where does the "discretion of the LOC" to not allow this enter into the equation?

[MISkier]

@LeonL, the LOC would essentially direct the judges and scorers to not allow scenario 2 and the skier would be forced to shorten at max speed. In scenario 1, the LOC would direct the judges and the scorers to only record the pass at max speed.

 

The system doesn't have a toggle (to my knowledge) to shut off the ZBS overspeed logic. So, the LOC has to toggle the officials off.

[LeonL]

I'm confused as to how the scoring program can be overridden for either scenario.

[MISkier]

Per my understanding, to handle situation when LOC does not approve overspeed ZBS:

 

Scenario 1: Skier requests speed higher than divisional max speed. Boat driver accommodates with higher speed Zero Off selection. Scorer ignores the higher speed and selects only the divisional max speed for that opening pass. Skier is forced to shorten after each pass or receives a zero. Scorer records each shortening at divisional max speed. Skier actually skis faster speed, but receives only credit for max speed of the division.

 

Scenario 2: Skier asks to Opt Up in speed. Boat driver accommodates with higher speed Zero Off selection. Judge informs skier that they must also shorten or the pass will not count. Scorer ignores higher speed and only selects line length (if shortened). Skier skis the pass at the higher speed and receives a zero if they did not shorten or receives the buoys skied as though they were at the max speed for the division.

 

@klindy, do you have insight into handling this situation? My question would be: how do they handle time input? Do they just input the expected "actual" time for the divisional max speed in each situation?

[klindy]

@MISkier you and @LeonL ask good questions. I'm not completely sure about how to handle the scoring program. I've never had to sort it out this year. I've asked for some clarity, I'll report back.

[John Brooks]

@LeonL & @MISkier the scoring system (WSTims) prompts you whether the skier would like to change the speed or rope length after a completed pass.

[MISkier]

@John Brooks, it only prompts for B3/G3 and below. To use it for overspeed in other divisions (e.g., M4), you need to use the Opt Up button.

[GK]

So we had a summer of ZBS after all the hysteria this winter. I saw a good number of people at all ages shorten at slower speeds and really enjoy themselves. I know of only a couple people in our area who actually skied OVER max speed and so far as I know they also enjoyed themselves. Is there any evidence from anywhere in the country that ZBS negatively affected somebody? From my vantage point, I only see positive. The fact that it is restricted to Class C only was a good compromise. The fact that the LOC has to approve it is silly.

[lpskier]

I had a similar scoring situation in spring 2016 before ZBS. I had a young British skier that would be B1/49kph max in US but would ski 52 kph under the rules of his home federation. He set a national record skiing International Boys division at the faster speed. I believe we scored him as if in B2 and then had to sort it out with his federation. As chief judge, I wrote a letter to the British federation explaining what we did for scoring purposes. It was confusing and the scoring program didn't have much flexibility so we did what we thought best at the time to get the right result.

 

I think if I was CJ at a C tournament and we had a M3 skier, for example, that wanted to ski 36, I would have the scorer enter him as M2 and straighten it out with Melanie at HQ on Monday.

[JeffSurdej]

I can not answer the scoring part, I know at nationals tina lindsey did it, they scored her at 32mph for the tourney and placement and then rescored her after at 34 to take care of the IWWF part. Perhaps the same is done at class C.

 

BTW has anyone heard an LOC deny ZBS this summer?

 

Overall I think it has been a win, we will run stats at end of year to see how may used it but I'm hearing enough happy campers that I think it has been a positive overall for the sport. I know overall skiers who struggle in slalom have really enjoyed not having to rely on making that top speed worth 12-18 buoys which was always the make or break for overall contention.

 

Everyone thought ZBS was going to end the slalom world, I'm glad we gave it a try. And at Nationals everyone had to ski at the same speed so it worked out.

 

Looking back at National rankings the only real effect I see was in Mens 8, top guy used it, and he may have still been #1 as he had the highest score at 49k anyway. 3 @ 39.

 

 

 

[lpskier]

@SkiRV You disagree. How would you handle it, or is there an update in the scoring program I don't know about? I'm not a scorer, and the only time I have run across the "faster than customary" situation was that one time in '16.

[tap]

1. At the risk of showing my ignorance... what or who is an LOC? I keep waiting for someone to actually spell this out but it hasn't happened.

 

2. I don't really care to much since the scores will wash out pretty soon anyways, but if you are a M2 skier with scores from class C events that are carried into M3, would it not make sense to treat those scores as an "opt up" to 36mph? The current system for the rankings list knocks all of your M2 scores down by 6 as if they were scored at 34mph.

[SkiRV]

Sorry...accidental click while reading thread

 

[klindy]

@tap LOC = Local Organizing Club. Basically the tournament host

[klindy]

@LeonL @lpskier @MISkier Per Dave Allen today: "Starting for the 2017 ski year skiing above the division maximum is scored per ZBS, meaning it scores the pass above the maximum. Previously it allowed a skier to ski above the max but didn't score."

 

There also was some discussion about E/L/R tournaments and how to submit the proper score IWWF purposes. It can be handled in one of two ways (comments below again directly from Dave) -

 

"Initially score the skier at the division max to use that score for tournament placement purposes. Then prior to submitting the tournament update the skiers score to use the increased speed. This will allow the

score to go to IWWF with the desired criteria. The problem with this approach is that it affects the score shown on the ranking list and on the published scorebook.

 

My preferred method is to create an addition tournament entry for the skier using an IWWF division. Then enter the skiers score using the division max for the skier with the AWSA age group and then enter the score with the actual skier's speed to the skier with the IWWF division. This will leave the scores for placement purposes with the appropriate results in both the ranking list and in the tournament scorebook.

 

Additionally the skier will have a score with the actual speed available to be sent to IWWF for purposes of the world ranking list.

 

If the rule is maintained for next year to not score with speeds above the division maximum then I will adjust the handling in the program for skiers in class E/L/R so these work arounds are not required."

 

Hope that helps.

[LeonL]

@MISkier I believe your scenario 2. to be in error. The rules say that a skier must go down or to the right within the matrix. No mention of requirement to go 2 at once. I may be misinterpreting though. @tap your #2 makes total sense to me.

@klindy so per Dave Allen WSTIMS would default to scoring at over max as opposed to default to comply with 10.06©??

@JeffSurdej in KY the federation agreed to not allow ZBS (over speed option) specifically at State Championships. No one has requested it to my knowledge. That may change beginning the new ski year. That's the reason for my questions.

[MISkier]

@LeonL, my explanation of scenario 2 requiring a line advancement was to answer your question about how a skier would be scored when they wish to ski overspeed and the LOC has not approved that. I am aware of the normal progression in the matrix when overspeed ZBS is allowed. When it is not, a skier cannot ski a subsequent pass without shortening. If they do, they have essentially decided that they are done with their round for scoring purposes and receive a zero for attempting a pass without shortening.

[klindy]

@LeonL I'm just relaying what Dave told me. Again I have never had a case where a skier asked for a speed higher than division max so I haven't tested it myself.

 

For further clarification, Dave sent me this today - "What I described is how skiing above the division max should be handled for a E/L/R event. However if it is a class C event then it is much more straight forward.

 

First, if the skier is starting at the speed above the division max than it just needs to be selected before adding the first pass. Then scoring is normal and the ZBS calculation applies using the calculation as described in the rules. If the skier starts at or below the division max then that is handled normally. At the end of each pass the system will ask if the skiers want to increase speed or shorten the line until they are at the division max. At that point the system will automatically shorten the line for the next pass leaving the speed at the division max. If the skier then wants to increase speed rather than shorten the line than simply click on the Opt Up button and this will ask if you want to increase speed or shorten the line. If you select increase speed it will increase the speed of the current pass and reset the line back to the length from the previous pass. Then score normally."

 

[LeonL]

@MISkier my apologies. I went back and reread the post. I was wrong.

[AkBob]

Help me be less confused. Suppose I enter a class C tournament now as a M7 skier with a max division speed of 32 and post a 96 buoy score of 6@38. A fellow M7 competitor runs a 35 pass at 32MPH and " opts up". He then runs a 35 off pass @34MPH and posts a 96 buoy score.

 

How would a runoff work and how do those C tournament scores get posted for National ranking? And.... not to beat this horse too much more .... what about Regionals and Nationals for the 2017 ski year?

[LeonL]

Your first question does raise quandary. My first impression would be to go with the current rule. You both start the run off at your last completed pass, no matter that they are different.

Scores will be posted on the ranking list by buoy count, regardless of speed. As of now, barring no other rule changes, opting up to a speed over division max is only permitted in class c. You weren't specific in your question about Regionals and Nationals. Did you mean 2018?

[AkBob]

Thanks for clarifying the ranking question. The runoff question would be interesting.... the last completed pass for each competitor in my example would have been 35@32mph. Then I guess either competitor could shorten or opt up in speed. I can foresee that the LOC could be fuzzy on how to score while getting used to ZBS. Regarding the last part of my question from earlier post.. I was referring to the 2018 Regionals and Nationals. I sort of thought we would be scored/ restricted to division max speeds. By that I mean you could ski " overspeed" but your score would be determined by line length at division max speed. To say another way, 38 off is 38 off regardless of whether you ski 34 instead of division max speed of 32.

[LeonL]

In your post you put forth a scenario that that said skier 1 completed 38 off at 32 mph and skier 2 completed 35 pff at 34mph. You did not mention the line/speed that each missed. Taking the assumption that skier 1 missed 39 and skier 2 missed 38 the runoff would be skier 1 going out at 38'and skier 2 going out at 35. Now this is not specifically covered in the rules, however logic would dictate this scenario. Question 2: again unless another rule change occurs, rules 10.06© applies. You are correct.