Senate Graphite, Lithium or Vapor

[Windsurfnut]

Looking for some insight on purchasing a 2017 Radar ski.

I currently ski on a Senate Alloy, at 15off 30-32mph and struggling through the course and open water skiing. I share the ski with my wife, which is not ideal. The boots are too big for her, and we are wearing out boots quickly with the 2 of us in and out of the ski so much. So she would like to take my 2015 Senate Alloy, as she loves the ski and put small boots on it. Therefore I need a new ski, and not sure what I should buy. I don't feel I'm a Vapor level skier, but also don't want to have 2 Senates in our arsenal.

I had my mind set on a 2017 Senate Graphite, with the updated shape and better construction being enough of a difference to justify a second Senate. The reviews on the Lithium seem to be superb, and I've started leaning that way. The final choice would be a Vapor Graphite.. But really at 42 yrs old, I don't see myself going short line or 36mph any time soon.

The course we ski at is on a fairly large lake, we get boat traffic and wind, so its not very often that we see glass. Similarly out open water skiing is pretty disturbed too with weekend traffic.

Thoughts

(Hope Horton chimes in here, as I really liked your review on the Lithium)

Cheers

 

[Chef23]

Since you have the green light to buy I would go with the 2017 Senate Lithium. I don't think there is a down side to going with the Lithium.

 

Another option if you don't want two Senates is the new HO Omni. That seems to be targeted at the same skier as the Senate.

[Horton]

Nobody ever regrets updating the materials on their ski. The lower price-point skis are really good but 99 times out of 100 the better construction is worth the cost.

[Sivota]

@chef23 has a point, but try as I might I have not been able to find a price for the Omni in the US or the UK. Prices are settled for Australia and you can order one there. I seriously was considering the Omni Syndicate but cannot compare it to a Senate as no one has the pricing let alone predicted availability.

[buski]

I've skied a graphite (16) and lithium (17). Granted there was a shape change but compared to the 16 graphite, the 17 lithium feels faster (in a good way), is easier to ski on, is more responsive but still more stable than other skis I've been on. After skiing on the graphite (demo) I decided to buy the 17 lithium. I'd have been happy if what I got skied the same as the 16 graphite, but am even happier on the 17 lithium.

[MarcusBrown]

Not trying to steal the thread here, but simply because of the success I've already seen with the new Omni series, I have to mention it.

 

Yesterday, I put a young woman on the Carbon Omni, who had never run more than 3 buoys in here life (was skiing on last years HO CX). She immediately ran 2 full passes.

 

At the higher end, of course you have to take this with a grain of salt, but Will Asher ran 41 off at 34.2 mph on the same Omni shape (Syndicate Omni, instead of Carbon Omni).

 

The Omni is based on a Syndicate Pro rocker line, with a slightly wider platform, and clean-edge tail. It is a completely new design, that I've already seen people gain 4-6 buoys on, at line-lengths of 28 and 32 off, yet its something that allows me to freeski and get aggressive on in the open water. Incredibly well rounded ski.

 

At the moment, probably because I'm still nursing my back, the Omni is the ski I get most excited about when I walk into my ski shed and turn the light on.

[OldboyII]

Water Ski Community needs independent opinions.

Something like - http://www.worldskitest.com/en/

With all my respect to manufacturers which make really good stuff and improving year to year.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

The constructions below the Lithium are a bit damper, which can be nice in rougher water. I have skied both PU and PVC cores in rough water and the PU core was clearly "quieter" whereas the PVC core skis can have a bit of a ping to them in choppy water. However, I don't know that this is reason enough to go with a PU core if budget is not an issue. I know that I got used to the pinging feel of the PVC core quickly and didn't really notice it after a few sets.

[Jmoski]

How close are you and your wife in terms of weight? - dangerous question I know!

 

My guess is you would each need a different length ski anyways, especially if your running the course.

 

Nothing wrong with a matching set of his & hers Radar Senates!

[C5Quest]

Lithium Senate ... can't go wrong. Fast and forgiving

[igkya]

Lithium Senate.

[bikesrus]

We have "his and hers" Lithium Senates. Everyone that has tried ours wants one of their own!

[andjules]

I'd consider the graphite and the lithium, but drop the alloy off the list.

Traditional fiberglass, non-carbon skis (like the alloy) are going to absorb too much of your effort when you're in the course. You want a stiffer layup that will get you earlier to the next ball with the less effort.

[Deke]

@andjules The 2017 Alloy Senate is all carbon.

[Windsurfnut]

I already have the Alloy, its not on the list. Its going to the wife and is the right size for her, she just needs to put small boots on it.

I think the Lithium makes sense.. Now does anyone know of a 2017 67 available. Most of the online places are sold out, or if showing available, when I call its actually not there.

[Deke]

@Windsurfnut check out ski-again.com

[JBB]

I am not sure this is much help, but I will be posting a 69' 2016 HO CX tomorrow. I has been skied on ~30 times, and will have double freemaxx bindings. My cousin skis on the Radar Senate Alloy, and they a similar. The CX is a bit more slippery and likes to turn a bit harder than the Senate. Just putting it out there.

[packski]

I don't think the Senate Lithium is available anymore?

[andjules]

Thanks @Deke. If the alloy is all-carbon, it makes me curious about the marketing-speak behind the 'all terrain core' vs the 'aerocore' and what it all really means in terms of stiffness/responsiveness. It would be great to here an honest, comparative review of all three by a mid-level skier in the course.

[Bill22]

The Alloy was fiberglass, in 2017 it was upgraded to all carbon. In a discussion way back (not sure which one) Brooks explained the difference.

 

As stated before, buy the best materials you can afford and if unsure what ski is best for you call Radar.

[OldboyII]

@packski 6 weeks ago I could not find Lithium. Got Graphite .

[oldjeep]

Curious what the 2012 senate - not the C version was made out of. It has been a good, durable ski. Considering a new ski for next season but concerned that the materials now are not tolerant enough of sunshine to survive the ski rack.

[eddie_roberts_jr]

The Senate C was carbon fiber with a polyurethane core.

[escmanaze]

@Windsurfnut If you go out there right now and find a holdover 2017 lithium senate 67" for sale for any kind of discount significant at all I will be really upset. I just looked really hard. In the end I purchased a 2018 darn near full price, which I'm sure will be a great ski, but I was hoping to get a ripping good price somewhere, and not to mention I liked the graphics so much more on the 2017 because of my college football allegiances.

 

 

 

[escmanaze]

Here is the thread with the pics of my new 2018 ski. The graphics are fine, but it would have been cool to perfectly match my college team's blackout uniforms, which were already my favorites.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/284916

[oldjeep]

@eddie_roberts_jr how about the regular senate? In your opinion which would be the current senate with the best chance of surviving being out in the sun?

[eddie_roberts_jr]

If you absolutely have to leave something out in the sun it would probably be better if it wasn't black like the Lithium. The Graphite is lighter in color and the Alloy is even lighter yet and it is basically the same ski minus the adjustable fin and plus the wood stringers in the forebody of the ski. If your ski was at least in a bag on the rack it would be kept cooler than sitting in the direct sun.

[C5Quest]

@escmanaze I'll trade you my 17 for your 18

[oldjeep]

@eddie_roberts_jr - OK, this is getting way off topic but putting a ski in a black bag keeps it cooler than being directly in the sun? Seems like it would get just as hot with the added benefit of the steam bath as the bindings are drying out.

 

In any event a bag in a ski rack isn't really doable - the syndicate bags (that we keep our radar skis in) are better than most but wouldn't survive long flapping in the racks at 34+ MPH. Typically it is the bottom of my ski facing the sun.

 

Thanks for the info though, maybe you guys can start making the skis white again ;)

[escmanaze]

@C5Quest If you were in Utah, I would actually consider it. However, start adding shipping costs and graphics suddenly fade on my importance list once we start talking real money.

[spicoli]

Who told u 42 was to old to improve my group all at 60 and still going for more bouys.

[OldboyII]

@oldjeep bag or neo sleeve will protect ski from ultraviolet rays, which is the most destroying factor of direct sun light.

[Edmund]

@spicoli My thought exactly!

[eddie_roberts_jr]

If the ski was covered it would also not get as hot.

[Windsurfnut]

I could not find a Lithium Senate anywhere, other then ordering 2018.

My friends at Radar recommended the Vapor, so I picked up a 2017 vapor graphite. Vapor Lithiums were pretty scarce too.

Huge change from the senate Alloy!! Going to take some getting use to, but already I love the graphite construction and after skiing some of our usual chop this morning I think a lithium would be just too stiff in our larger open lake conditions

[Bill22]

@Windsurfnut awesome! Sounds like you got the right ski for you.

[Windsurfnut]

Revisiting this, with an update and questions..

I sold the 2017 Graphite Vapor this summer to a friend who needed a ski after damaging his, and I was skiing more on the Graphite Senate, as I had slowed down my course speeds to focus on technique. I was running 28-29 mph in the course at 15' off consistently and have moved up to 30-31 mph at 15'off consistently.

 

I'm back, however to a decision - as we still have STD boots on the Senate and my wife really needs small boots.

 

As luck would have it, I found the Senate Lithium I was looking for.

Will I really notice a difference going to the Senate Lithium over the Graphite? I don't expect to ever be a 36 mph skier, but running 22-28 off at 32 is a shorter term goal.

 

If I do not pick up the Senate Lithium, and stay on the Graphite, we'll be looking for a ski for my wife and likely put her on a Lyric. She loves the Senate Graphite though, but could probably benefit from a 65" ski vs the 67", although she is running 27-28 mph. I also think that a step back to Alloy construction is less than desirable with the Lyric, she really likes the Graphite.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Pretty unlikely your wife would notice much of a difference between the Graphite Senate and the Lyric at speeds under 30mph. I switched from the Alloy to the Graphite, and at 34mph I could feel a slight difference in water feel, but very slight. I only ski up to -22 and believe it is more likely that someone at shorter lines who is more consistent in technique would notice more of a difference between the two models.

[aupatking]

It’s more the shape than the construction that you’re going to notice. What year Senate are you looking at? The Senate will ski very much like the Vapor of the same shape, but much easier at the speeds you’re riding it. If it’s the 17-18 shape, over the 15 shape you have, don’t let your wife ride it. You won’t get it back.

Remember, a different shape is a different ski, no matter if the name is the same.

You’re really gonna love the new one!

[A_B]

Of your are not that “into” high speed short line, keep the Senate and buy her a Lyric in girlie colors.

 

You’ll be a hero.

[Windsurfnut]

Lol. She’d rather have the Senate Graphite then a lyric, including the colors!!

 

I grabbed the lithium for myself. :)