Pole Vault

[Than_Bogan]

So today, I tried the pole vault. 46 isn't too late to pick it up, right?

 

Any vaulters out there? In some ways it seems to have a lot in common with slalom.

 

The story behind this is that I've always wanted to coach the High Jump, and the opportunity to coach at the local high school just came up -- but they really also want me to coach the Pole Vault, which I barely know anything about. So I figured Learn by Doing...

[Wish]

@adamhcaldwell

[aupatking]

She’s not on here, but one of my club members pole vaults for Vanderbilt. She takes the entire school year off from skiing and comes back and runs PB’s. So, I’m guessing the mechanics, if not somewhat similar, work to strengthen the same muscle groups that allow/promote good form.

Or, she’s a freak athlete.

She’s a freak athlete

[lpskier]

Well, Bruce Jenner was Eastern Region overall champion in 1970 or thereabouts.

[Edbrazil]

I believe that Jenner got his start as a pole vaulter before expanding into the Decathlon.

[disland]

Its more like jump. Maximize speed into the base and technique to transfer forces into height. It is like skiing in that you must master the finer points of technique to get good.

[rfa]

@Than, fortunately for you, you can get pole vault and slalom advice from the same person...@adamhcaldwell. When I was in SC, he referenced pole vaulting several times, both in terms of his background, but also with relation to skiing....good stuff...HNY to you and don't get hurt...

[Than_Bogan]

Caldwell was one of the first people I contacted when I started to consider this. Texted him several times yesterday.

 

I do think slalom background helped a little. I was much better than the other 3 newbs, but to be fair two of them were 14 year old girls.

 

I think the biggest carry over is: do what the coach says, not what seems to makes sense :).

[ToddF]

@Than_Bogan send me a message if you want. been vaulting and coaching vault for 30 plus years

I jumped over 17' a few times back in the 80s and 90's now I am trying to beat my son one last time in a couple weeks at the national pole vault summit in Reno

[gregy]

I pole vaulted in junior high and some in high school. I had a few times that I landed wrong and was very sore. I don't think I would have the courage to try it now. I was pretty good early on but just wasn't a fast enough runner to compete later.

[markn]

WOW, 17 foot vault no matter when it was is darn impressive. Remember using the old fiberglass Sky-pole or the really cool black Catapolt poles back when I vaulted in high school. Never got past 11 feet. Guess I was a 15 off vaulter and you were a 39 off vaulter! Good luck in Reno.

[ToddF]

Sky poles and the black cats were scary must have broke six or seven of them I am glad pacer started making good poles back in the eighties

[Jordan]

Of no help to you @Than_Bogan....I vaulted only one time. High school track and field team was doing surprisingly well at a local meet. Found ourselves within a few points of first place overall. Then we realized that there were points for competing in each event, not just placement points. Now, we didn't have pole vaulting at our school....borrowed a pole, ran like hell and went up, then right back down on the track...hilarious! Eventually got one jump in that got over the (very low) bar.

 

Anyhow, good for you @Than_Bogan !!!

[mwetskier]

@lpskier -jokes involving bruce jenner and pole vaulting kind of write themselves.

[Than_Bogan]

@Jordan. I actually did some similar things in college. Although I am a marginal athlete, I am pretty good at achieving mediocrity quickly, so a total of 3 times I was called upon to enter a weight event at the last moment and try to pick up a point or two. There even was one weird-but-fun meet where I didn't even get to do my best event (triple jump) but instead did the 35-lb weight throw, just because the other teams were so strong in TJ and so weak in WT.

 

It was a last-second realization by the head coach, so the story was kinda funny. I arrived early at the track on the somewhat ridiculous notion that somehow I'd get into the triple jump (which was the first event). As I jogged into the indoor arena, Coach Taylor came running up to me.

 

Coach: "Oh good. You're here!!" (This was not his standard greeting, as I was kind of a scrub at the college level.)

Me: "I'm prepared for the triple, Coach!" [smiling; show him TJ shoes in hand]

Coach: "What, no. We discussed it doesn't makes sense for you to do the triple today. I need you to throw the weight."

Me: "Um, ok." [probably slack-jawed blank stare at this moment] "You know I've never done the weight throw in my life, right?"

Coach: "If anyone can teach it in an hour, it's J.P. He's expecting you..."

 

J.P. taught me a "special" technique that day, designed to maximize distance on day one, without regard to the "right" way to do the event. And sure enough, I not only picked up the "free" point (from the event not being full), but beat one guy to earn two points :). Combined with a few points in the HJ, that was the only meet of my college career where we would have lost without my contributions.

[Andre]

@Than_Bogan

Like always,i'm sure we would all appreciate videos of your next jumps...

[Than_Bogan]

Good point. Graybeard vaulting does need to be documented! I'm guessing I will look even more stupid than I feel!!

[Andre]

Can't feel stupid for helping kids do sports!!!

Congrats!

[Than_Bogan]

"and don't get hurt" @rfa One of the many amusing aspects of my first day was that every time I'd stop to stretch or pause to think on the mat, someone would immediately say "are you alright!?" I noticed they weren't saying that to the teenagers...

 

But yes, I was alright. Really only the arches of my feet got particularly sore in the following days, and I'm still not sure why.

 

I'm pretty aware of both my abilities and my limitations. As a simple example, I did most of the drills about half as many times as the young newbs. Once I had the basic idea, rest was better than repetition.

[jimbrake]

@Than_Bogan - I haven't vaulted, but sure have watched a lot of it. My son vaulted from 11 thru 18 years of age and cleared 15'3" a few times. He cleared 16 in practice and had some scholarship-free opportunities for college, but opted to ski in college instead.

 

I wish I would've vaulted when I was a kid. I applaud you starting now. I still (at 59) would like to give it a go. I certainly understand the mechanics of it. I also know that I would have a high probability of getting hurt.

 

@ToddF - This year will be my first since 2011 not going to the Pole Vault Summit. I will really miss it. Good luck to you and your son!

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Than_Bogan I believe it was Dirty Harry that said “a man has got to know his limits”

 

Hope you end up on the right side of yours B)

[Than_Bogan]

Of course, I may get hurt. We all know nothing can prevent all risk.

 

But there is a little upside to being a mediocre athlete, in that it can help keep you from getting into trouble. I recall a funny story of a kid who was a very good athlete, but had never skated before and we were teaching him. It hadn't been a super-cold winter, but our cove was frozen solid; the main lake not-so-much! After about 10 seconds of instruction, he's off and skating -- quickly building speed to a nice clip. At some point he notices the open water is now starting to approach, so he yells back "HOW DO I STOP!?"

 

He came up with some sort of stop/crash and wasn't really very close to going into the water, but nevertheless this is the type of situation that a worse athlete just doesn't get into.

[ToddF]

@jimbrake My first year back since 2006, before that I used to live/coach in Reno and went every year as well, even coached at the summit a couple years.

 

15'3" is a great high school mark, nice to have the choice between skiing and vaulting for college. Not sure which one I would have chosen if I had that same opportunity.

 

Vaulting and Skiing require similar Kinesthetic movements and mindsets.

[Horton]

I really tried to Vault in high school - could not do it. Guess I am a skier.

[Than_Bogan]

A video has been taken! Hopefully it will be in my possession and ready to share soon.

 

I think the stage I'm in now is similar to standing on 2 skis: a necessary step in the learning curve, but doesn't look all that much like the real thing. But anyhow, I survived a second day! And slightly fewer people asked if I was OK. :smile:

 

I also tried to chat up the athletes in the line, and I was dismayed by how many either had no coach at all or a coach-in-name-only whom they clearly did not respect.

 

Another amusing moment was a gymnast / champion pole vaulter showed me some exercises to do hanging from a pull-up bar. Most of them were hilariously impossible. I couldn't even imagine what muscles allowed what he was doing, much less having the strength to execute.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Out of curiosity, did you have a coach? If so, did he/she know anything?

 

In terms of this whole adventure, I'm at the 3-year-old stage right now, where I just want to say "Why?" to every single thing anyone says about the pole vault!! (In fact, this is giving me a lot of empathy for three year olds...)

[Edbrazil]

Had a friend, now deceased via Viet Nam, who was quite an all-around high school athlete and a BMOC. Participated in several sports, including football, as a JV quarterback. Mediocre student, but got by. His coach suggested that he get used to heights, because of pole vaulting. So, he climbed up a 100+ foot tower near the athletic field, and yelled down something like: "Coach, is that enough?" Yes, he was a joker, too.

 

Went on post-school to get somewhat involved in politics, working as an aide for a state sentor. Until Vietnam got him, as it did other friends of that era.

[jimbrake]

@Than_Bogan - exercises like "Bubkas"? Great for your core. I can do a few. My son can whip out 20+. Hey, as long as your moving the pole through and landing in the pit, consider it good. It's like coming off the jump ramp over your skis instead of to the side or under them. A good feeling.

[Than_Bogan]

I just learned Bubkas, and so far I can do about 2. I was surprised when I did 1!

 

But the exercises this kid was showing me made that look trivial. Simplest one to describe is dead hang with arms straight and then running your feet around a virtual, vertical clock. Obviously, 6-o'clock is easy. I couldn't get to 3 or 9, but I could understand how that might be possible with stronger muscles. 11-1 range just seems physically impossible. But apparently not.

 

And yes: move pole, land in pit == good!!

[Horton]

I don't remember if my Coach knew anything or if I just didn't have any tricep strength. I never could get myself to keep my arm straight and bend the pole.

 

That's all I remember. It was 30 years ago so who knows.

[ToddF]

@horton based on what you just said I would guess your coach didn't know very much about the vault

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddF I was thinking the same. Perhaps I've learned something already!

[Mateo_Vargas]

Maybe some of the guys can help you out over on Ball of Vault.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton, @ToddF, @Than_Bogan - And any other vaulter out here, this is what I am talking about with skiing.

 

99% of what is coached in slalom is the equivalent of "trying to bend the pole". Slalom is very rarely discussed as effectively creating, transferring, and redirecting energy from one direction to another. In the vault, pole bend is merely a by-product, or result of, effective energy transfer and not an 'objective' per-say.

 

I would argue that for the majority of the skiers out there, the 'edge change' in slalom is equivalent to "pole-bend" in the vault.

[Than_Bogan]

As I've been learning this, I keep finding myself thinking "Do not try to bend the spoon."

 

That famous Matrix line really has nothing to do with this, but the association is so strong with "do not try to bend"...

[jimbrake]

I think this is great. I know a lot of water skiers roll their eyes when the snow skiers start to compare the techniques of the two sports. Now we are working on the comparison of the pole vault to slalom. @adamhcaldwell - clearly it's the swing to inverted position that is the "edge change" per se, not the pole bend itself. We can also debate the tuck and shoot to the trailing leg swing methods to invert now.

 

Next up: the top of the backswing of the golf swing - is this really the apex of the slalom turn/reach as I postulated in the late '90s? Discuss.

[Adam Caldwell]

@jimbrake brake, the swing to inverted cannot be the edge change. Swing to inverted means the vaulter is recovering energy from the system. For the skier, the ski can be on a new edge but the skier still receiving energy from the boat.

 

The pole bend is a process that evolves over time, not just a singular event. During the bending and unbending process energy transfer to and recovered by the vaulter. It starts the moment the pole hits the back of the plant box and ends as the pole straightens out and the vaulter recovers the stored energy.

 

In slalom, I think of an edge change more as a long transition as something that starts at CL and ends at apex, during which the skier undergoes a similar sequence of energy transfer and recovery.

 

The "swing to inverted position" is just the vaulter preparing to recovering energy from the pole after it has reached its max PE. For the skier, that would happen the moment just prior to the skier getting 'disconnected' from the line an completely free of all energy from the boat.

 

In vaulting we want the energy recovery (invert phase) to initiate and take place as high off the ground as possible. In Slalom, we want it to take place as wide in the course as possible.

[Than_Bogan]

There are many analogies to be made about the technical elements. And keep them coming, because this helps me a lot.

 

But I also think there is an analogy relating to common misconceptions. In that regard, I think the notion of trying to bend the pole is most similar to the notion of leaning over more at the turn. Both of those things LOOK like what the athlete is trying to do, but in reality trying to do those is very detrimental!

[jimbrake]

@adamhcaldwell - oh man, you thought I was serious and actually thought that out. Sorry, I was just mimicking the technical discourse that you can read ad nauseum on polevaultpower.com. Swing to invert happens before the pole unbends. When the pole begins to rebound you better have gotten your hips and legs and feet vertically above your shoulders or the pole will shoot you into the bar. Watch Mondo:

 

[ToddF]

Kid is a stud. His dad is 5'6" and built like a body builder and also jumped 19' kinda like if terry winter was Nate smith's dad

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Impressive

[ToddF]

During the swing you are still loading the pole and continuing forward momentum

"rolling the pole over." (Technical aspects omitted) As long as you are doing that you will be putting yourself in a position to rock back and get lined up with the pole as it begins to unbend and shoot you up and hopefully over the bar. Now, if you begin to unload the pole with either hand too soon the pole will begin to straighten and now the vaulter will be trying to rock back while the pole is lifting them up. which is bad and most athletes lack the physical strength to do anything successful after that.

Picture swinging upside down on a high bar easy right? Now trying swinging upside down while hanging on a helicopter while it is going up. Much more challenging but not impossible.

 

And yes if done properly the swing and rock back will ideally increase or at a bare minimum maintain the energy created from the takeoff

 

Dr. Peter McGinnis has done a lot of biometric studies on the vault I am sure we could find all the needed values

 

I will try to do all of this correctly this weekend and post it, or post exactly what not to do, probably the latter

[Than_Bogan]

By popular demand, here I am doing my Newb Vault Drill at my 4th practice session:

 

 

Naturally, the two I did after that one were considerably better. :)

 

On my best ones I was giving that soft bar at 12' a decent kick. Seems like my lifetime goal of 9' may be possible ... eventually.

[Chef23]

That looks nothing like it looks on TV.

[Than_Bogan]

Conveniently, I still have 2.5 years until the Olympics. I'm pretty sure I'll be ready...

[jimbrake]

You're ready to move back to a seven left and 15/185.

[Than_Bogan]

@jimbrake Ha! I must admit I am super-tempted to just go full bore and see what happens. But considering that this is the introductory path they use for 15 year olds, I probably shouldn't try to be more aggressive.

[ToddF]

@Than_Bogan I like the take off. Just like a triple jumper should, but the pole carry has to be addressed ASAP you are now their leader they will follow your example.

 

Don't let anyone get in the habit of carrying the pole like that to many bad habits to break

 

Soft bar is called a bungee

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddF Just doing what they told me :). This particular school seems to prefer to delay proper pole carriage until the newb is pretty reliably driving energy up and getting the pole to rotate fast (and thus, critically, land in the pit). They tell me usually 5-10 practice days this way.

 

Are you saying when you start a complete newb that you incorporate the correct pole carriage into the first drills? Can you comment more on your philosophy there?

 

@Horton Would you prefer if we take this offline? I would have thought there's only about 4 people here with the slightest interest this, but this thread does have over 1000 views... Maybe the "train wreck" effect is at work?

[thager]

@Than_Bogan Any sport coaching 101. Teach them the correct fundamentals from the start!