New CG Fin from Denali

[S1Pitts]

I believe I have the C 65 dialed in on the reg fin and quite honestly this ski works insanely well for me. Still having a bit of a hunting issue on the pull outs but I am working on it.

I cannot imagine what is in store for me when the CG Fin goes on.....so exciting.

 

I want to thank Horton for maintaining such a great site and all the posters on this thread / forum. Switching over to the fin would have been a much steeper learning curve without the input from users here.

Cheers to all.

[Than_Bogan]

@S1Pitts Are you double-boot? For some reason that I haven't fully understood yet, Denalis are much more likely to edge-hunt a bit for us double-booters. The most important cure is to aggressively move onto the front foot during the pullout and glide, which actually is what you want to do anyhow! You may get a slight benefit from moving your boots one way or the other, but the fundamental cure lies more with technique than ski tuning in my experience.

 

So glad you're enjoying the ski and hope the future is even brighter with the CG Fin!

[Wish]

+1 for putting as much weight on the ball of your front foot as you comfortably or even uncomfortably can not only in the glide but before it and after it. Had the same experience early on. Really focused on feeling that weight on the ball of front foot it became muscle memory.

[Than_Bogan]

"or even uncomfortably" -- exactly!

[ghutch]

@Than_Bogan and @Wish, how much or rather what are you feeling when you go to the front foot that much? I have a Denali and think I am on the front but probably not enough. A few times I have tried I thought it was going to be a yard sale or look like a dumb stunt double for Superman. Also how did it change or affect your skiing?

[The_MS]

So how long before we see this fin type on all skis being made? Sounds like a game changer

[Than_Bogan]

@MS I truly believe it is. That's why I keep insinuating that I had something to do with it. I think if every so often I increase my "how much I contributed" percentage by a factor of 10, that nobody will notice and eventually I can get to 100%.

 

But being slightly more serious, I think this fin may be a relatively larger delta than even the very significant ski design advances Denali has made. I love the c-65, but it's not too hard to make the case for about 10 different skis as "the best" right now. But it might be the case that this fin is "just plain better."

[Wish]

@ghutch short version: less drag, less load, more speed.

[Than_Bogan]

@ghutch So firstly, when I was at a Denali summit, I actually tried to throw myself off the front with my first move, probably because I am contrary and wanted to prove the Adams wrong. I couldn't do it. (I suppose if I bent my rear leg at the right moment to actually LIFT the tail, I could force OTF, but from just pure weight transfer I can't do it.) Instead, the ski just accelerates like hell.

 

For me personally, the thing that helps the most is to very actively lean forward at least as much as I lean left when I start my move up before the gates. Sadly, if I don't focus on this, it goes away after about 3 sets. I think a tiny bit has "stuck," but it's still a very conscious move for me, and when I do it, I get SO much higher on the boat and under better control. When I completely fail to do it, the edge hunting at the apex returns (and I'm narrower and my gate is far worse).

[The_MS]

You would think they are all testing it or a variation of it

[Than_Bogan]

Or negotiating with Denali to license it... (No, I do not have any evidence of such a thing. But it's what I'd be doing in their shoes.)

[S1Pitts]

@Than_Bogan Yes I am a double booter and LFF. I had some heal side pulls today that on any other ski would have been an epic OTF. I believe you 100 % that it is less likely with the c 65 but I hope to never discover just where that line is.

As for the pull outs when I tried to load the front foot more it resulted in the ski kicking out hard to the right just at the point of entering the flat ski glide phase which had me do my best beaver tail impersonations...not just once but several times. Hard to push thru that kind of self abuse.

Edited Aug 9 - I will try even more FF pressure today and see how it responds. Does front binding placement affect this?

[S1Pitts]

My other brand cg fin has been making the rounds on skis this week while I have been skiing the C 65. So far everyone who has tried it wants one. +1 on this fin becoming the new standard.

[Than_Bogan]

@S1Pitts Binding placement matters greatly, but I have not found it critical to edge-hunting. One of the things I always tell people when setting up a c-65 is that you have to get in front of the "kick-point" -- that sudden change of bottom slope between the boots. When you're in the right spot, that kick-point automatically rocks you to the sweet spot. It's a cool idea and it works. BUT if you manage to get far enough back that it doesn't do that, then you're basically turning on about 1/3 of a ski!

Because I am not naturally a weight-forward skier, I've gone a little ahead of stock on mine and am at 30.5" on the 66". This assures proper operation of the kickpoint even when my bad habits creep in!

[The_MS]

Anyone tried one on a KD?

[mwetskier]

@Than_Bogan -i'm not sure how much ' negotiating to license ' would be necessary. i compared my denali fin to a schnitzers slot fin that i've had for at least a decade and to my eye it seems like every ' unique ' feature on the cg fin can be found in one form or another on the schnitzers fin. maybe denali could get a design patent but i don't see anything new on the denali fin that actually qualifies it for a utility patent.

 

since schnitzters didn't patent his slot fin any specific feature of that fin like the horizontal slot or the beveled ends on the holes is literally ' up for grabs ' by anyone else who wants to manufacture fins. as always, just my opinion so don't shoot the messenger.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Intellectual Property laws and precedents are immensely complicated.

 

One of the many reason that is true is that every invention is related to previous inventions.

[teammalibu]

@MS today!

[Adam Caldwell]

Clearly, we wanted to copy Schnitz and take the credit for all his hard work and just figured no one would notice. Damn - the gig is up I guess.

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@mwetskier - I think when you photo them side by side like that outside of a ski you disguise that on a Slot the horizontal "window" is well below the running surface of the ski - where as on a CG the window is somewhat obscured -

 

Sorry to parties whos photos I may have borrowed from ski-it-again -

So I guess I'll post a link to their ad - can't complain if you get free publicity but it shows the point http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Slalom&postid=46697

 

This becomes effectively an adjustable volume port using the ski surface as a valve of sorts.

 

So, different shape, different hole location that thereby functions differently, different product.

 

 

[The_MS]

@teammalibu So what is the result?

[mmosley899]

@mwetskier I'm afraid you are overlooking some very critical differences, and @Than_Bogan is also correct...

[6balls]

@mwetskier there are so many differences in your photo from fin to fin it's not same or even similar. The only real similarity is the idea of a slot.

I'm not saying one is better than the other...just that this is apples and oranges in that photo...or in the flying world like a Cessna and a Piper.

[Wish]

@6balls had to google those to see what the diff was. Looks like they both fly, have wings and a motor and the similarities end there. Pretty much the same with the 2 fins. Good analogy.

[mwetskier]

@adamhcaldwell -I realize you're being sarcastic, but i'm pretty sure i didn't actually say *any* of the things you are implying. however, would you agree that the seemingly 'unusual ' aspects of your fin can also be found in one form or another in the schnitzers fin?

[Wish]

@mwetskier can you admit that no one cares. CG fin works..nuff said.

[S1Pitts]

We dug out the old Schnitz fin and tried it today - two horses but of completely different color, Stratocaster vs Les Paul, Chevy vs Ford.....the comparisons are endless.

[S1Pitts]

@adamhcaldwell @AdamCord

If I had 10 fins in the boat today I could have sold them all. Any discount for bulk buying? Need to earn gas monies.

[mwetskier]

@Wish -for the record, i use a cg fin myself (with a schnitzers mini-wing) and i love it. i'm supportive of the adams and their ski company and i hope to find the time this fall to fly down and and try (and prolly buy) a ski from them. also for the record i'm sure no one *does* care about the similarities i pointed out.

 

in fact, my real point is that because the similarities do exist i don't think @Than_Bogan 's prediction of other ski companies *licensing* the cg fin is likely to come about. i think if the other companies do anything at all (unlikely) it will be to simply appropriate whatever features they think have value -and it certainly wouldn't be the first time in history a ski company did exactly that.

 

again, this is all just one guys marginally informed opinion.

[slow]

If the fin works people will buy it. It works. No reason to get stuck in the dirt.

[BraceMaker]

@mwetskier being that there is no patent police it all comes down to a patent holder to decide how much time and money to defend their property. And then to repeat it again. And again.

 

A great video to watch is NYCCNC has a quick video discussing how you can go about protecting your design.

 

To me the aspect of a slot obscured by the ski to control volume is something you could protect.

 

Anyone recall the power port?

[mwetskier]

i do recall the power port. ultimately it didn't make the cut, but it was certainly an interesting idea. i also recall perfect pass rattling their saber at new player e-controls, only to have e-controls challenge their patent in court - and perfect pass having to settle for the lesser market in order to stay in business.

 

on a side note, you and i interpret the primary function of the slot differently. i don't believe the partially obstructed slot is so important to control the volume of water passing thru it. my take is that it allows the fin to be adjusted through a wide range of length / depth combinations without appreciably increasing or decreasing the fin's surface area. As always, just my opinion.

[JC McCavit]

Bump - I haven't heard one person say they don't like the C.G. Fin, so let's talk about why we like it. I like it because it makes me more confident on my ski and it's pretty.

[Ed_Johnson]

I like it because it makes my ski more efficient, less work, faster, quicker turns, and tracks like crazy !!!

 

[Fehlindra]

Cant tell what the fin do or not on the c-65 cos it came shipped with the ski in january but when i tryed mount it on the 17 nano xt alot of the drag just goes away and it get faster over the wakes, and if i keep the depth just under 2.5 and length 6.830 and longer the ski keeps the speed and dont dig in so hard at the buoy which i like at 28off but maybe its needed at shorter linl. edit cg fin at maxed out back on xt havent measured it

[teammalibu]

@MS tried it last nite felt pretty good! I think I will move it back a little and drop it a little deeper today! Started with BBs #s

[A_B]

@Ed_Johnson does it track so well that it eliminates smear?

[The_MS]

@teammalibu Let me know the final outcome.

[bradb]

Has anyone received a fin from the second batch yet?

[Ed_Johnson]

@A_B ... I have my NRG set up with the washers for a depth of RFF, 2.423 Left, and 2.453 Right side, which allows for some smear coming off the apex. Tracking is then excellent cross course. If my pea brain reminds me to apply forward load, it will actually increase angle when the load hits it's maximum leverage.

 

[HighAltitude]

I have not received mine either. Hoping to get it soon.

[Beeker]

@A_B I feel it tracks like crazy as well, in my opinion it does smear less. .However to me the easier wide cast out is a fair trade off.

[mbabiash]

I have a fin ordered.

I was talking with @AdamCord at nationals and he said to set it to my current settings but .030 back.

I forgot but he either told me if it’s too slow go one direction, too fast go the other. Any one know forward or back and how it correlates to speed.

 

[Ed_Johnson]

On mine, forward made it faster, however that could have been the result of the mini-wing at 5 degrees.

The size and angle of the wing directly correlated to the amount of drag. Right now my NRG is long and shallow, with the low drag wing, and it is perfect. For 28 and 32's I have to start the edge change at the first wake, because there is so much carry out.

If I had to describe the CG Fin in One Word it would be "EFFICIENT."

 

[bhs]

I just ordered the fin. I will set the fin as suggested but I am confused about the wing. Set it at factory, buy a mini wing or ski with out one?

[S1Pitts]

Just put any wing on @ 7-8 deg and go from there.

Personally I use 10.5 with mini wing - 9 with radar wing - 6 or 7 deg with s wing depending on water being fast or slow.

[Booze]

I have both, as well. The Schnitz fin has ALOT more material at the back of the fin, and is designed to be almost flush with the tail of the ski.

[mbabiash]

Has anyone received their CG fin from this last batch? I know they were going to get them shipped after the Malibu open.

I’m just curious if mine is on the way or if I even ordered in time to get one from this batch. No word from either @adamhcaldwell or @AdamCord

 

[HighAltitude]

Unfortunately, numerous companies with a great product have failed because they ignored the "business" side of their business. Totally understand if this is just a hobby, but if Denali wants to actually grow as a business they have to communicate with customers and then deliver on their communications.

[Steven_Haines]

They said that they would ship after Malibu. I’m anxiously waiting too. I’m in the second batch