Crossfit open style competition for water skiing

[disland]

I know this has been discussed before but thought it might be worth another run at it.

 

For those of you not familiar Crossfit open is competition where local gyms all compete on a global basis the same workout that has to be done within 4 days. ( I think that right but I apologize if I am incorrect), over several weeks to qualify for the next round. The idea is local "judges" certify the score without everyone having to travel to a single location. this is followed by regionals which is more like how waterski regionals is done. Everyone's scores are posted on a website for the whole world to see. No one seems to be too worried about cheating. Some of the bigger clubs have fans that come out to see the workouts and cheer everyone on, but thats not required. Soldiers are doing it in Iraq.

 

I believe a similar concept could translate in skiing. Use local scoring for advancement to regionals that doesnt require a full on tournament with tower judges, certified scorers, safety guy who took some kind of class and all that overhead. People can post their scores every week and you can track you progress against your age group peers through the existing ranking program.

 

There still could be local tournaments, which is no different than folks gathering at a gym to watch the top guy do their thing.

 

More scores, more "tournament" sets, more fun. Even more money if you charged a nominal fee for entering scores.

 

Less hassle, less admin, less cameras, less promo boats, less expense.

[Beastmode]

I like the concept. would need lots of details to make work. Just thinking out loud--- would have to be a sanctioned tournament site with certified course, Rated Boat Judge and driver, Video, ECT... Could not set Records this way but could be a great way to get Scores in the books for Avg. Could increase number of scores needed for avg - golf uses 10 scores to set Handicap.

 

I personally love the tournament scene but many states and areas don't have as many local tournaments.

 

[oldjeep]

And more people would hear about it. First rule of crossfit o:)

[jayski]

@Beastmode now your just complicating it again ;) ...pretty sure in "the open" either a certified judge has to watch the workout or you can send in video proving your score. Simple enough. In reality ANY course will do and with video or a certified boat judge it could be easy enough. In regards to cheating, it would all come out at regional's or Nats anyway so no harm no foul...perhaps the proper legit "qualifying" order should be video/boat judge to state, state qualifies to regional's, regional's qualifies to Nats...and a record tournament can qualify for Nats also

[cragginshred]

Why do none of the cross fit girls look 'fit'? Apart from the ones who look like Romanian power lifters they usually look pudgy with no definition. Just an observation

[Horton]

@cragginshred

 

[mikegile]

Why not do it just like amateur golf? Practice scores create a handicap then we all compete on the against each other. Sandbaggers get weeded out at the tournaments.

 

Still keep the big tourneys the same.

 

Just a thought...

 

[david_quail]

@cragginshred What a weird comment to make. But I'll nibble. "Crossfitters" for the most part, are just average folks, looking to stay in shape and get functionally stronger while making a few friends in the gym. They're not looking to make pin up models of themselves - if they were, they'd stop eating and or hire a trainer. From my experience (I can't believe I'm commenting on this), crossfitters look like any average bloke walking down the street. Some eat too much. Some eat too little. But they're all usually strong as f#$ck. I wouldn't normally take this conversation to a place outside of slalom, but critiquing a group of people trying to stay in shape for their appearance seems misplaced .... so I feel the need.

 

That aside, I like the idea of a Crossfit open style competition. There are challenges ... one of which not mentioned ... is getting average everyday skiers (like myself) to participate.

The Open appeals to average crossfiters for a number of reasons:

- It's usually done as a big group with everyone encouraging eachother on - in a party type atmosphere.

- The workout is a big surprise. You have no idea what you're going to get

- You know you're not going to be anywhere close to the pros, but it's always interesting to see where you stack up. Depending on the workout, this can vary a lot.

 

None of this really applies to a Slalom Open. I guess clubs could do it as a party type atmosphere. But there's no element of surprise, and I already know exactly where I stack up against the pros (and it's not pretty).

 

Anyways - even just for the sake of having clubs get together and compete internally and share the results - it's definitely a really good idea.

[WBLskier]

Last year we created a ski league that pretty much does what the OP is asking for. A description is below. We had 100+ skiers over five states last year. We are re-tooling this off season to work out some of the kinks we discovered, and we will be taking registrations later this spring for the 2018 season that will run June-August with a two week playoff series.

 

(OPEN TO SKIERS THROUGHOUT THE NATION)

 

The league is virtual weekly team slalom waterski competition open to adults and junior skiers who enjoy skiing in the slalom course. No minimum level of proficiency is required, only a desire to get better at skiing the slalom course. Handicap scoring equalizes the field from beginners to experts. Skiers will compete at their own sites, with their own boats once a week, on their own schedules, and compete virtually against other teams throughout the country. Skiers on the same team can (and have) competed alongside one another each week while skiing in different states. Each skier gets a minimum of four passes every week. Certified judges and drivers are not required. Any boat can qualify as a permitted towboat. Speed control is not required. Teams can range in size from 3 to 10 skiers.

[ShererSkier]

@WBLskier do you have a website for this league? Sounds fun!

[WBLskier]

@Shererskier we're building out a new website this winter...I'll send info to you when it's done.

[cragginshred]

Ok good to know there are some fit cross fitters. Sounds like the norm in your areas. In my county the gals I know that post pics on FB of they're gym members make me scratch my head -all pudge no definition and they are soooo stoked to squat whatever they're squatting. They put on size but that's about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Onside135]

@david_quail, @cragginshred continues to highlight his ignorance on this. I recall a previous thread where he seemed to imply that a woman's fitness goals should include becoming attractive to "most men"

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/287612

 

Come on, man...

[RazorRoss3]

@cragginshred anyone who posts gym pics on facebook should make you scratch your head because no one gives a rats ass about anyone else's gym routine.

 

Outside of that, as a former competitive lifter, you'd be surprised what a little extra mass on the body can do for power. As a current lifter I can make 300lbs look like a tinker toy, it doesn't mean I'm completely lean. You can be both healthy and strong without looking like an Olympic athlete. I would point out that most amateur water skiers I see aren't rocking 6 packs either unless we're talking about IPAs.

[epnault]

I think it could work if we could get as organized as the crossfit community but I think it is doubtful. It would be a fun way to bring us all together.

 

There are many misconceptions about crossfit and the big one is that it is about body building (get the look). It has nothing to do with that. The whole methodology is about turning yourself in to the best athletic shape you can. All the lifting is full body movements. You won't see people rocking muscle specific moves like bicep curls.

[Rpc29]

One of the biggest things we can learn from Crossfit is how they do promotion. Something like this after major events doing a recap would be great:

 

Wouldn't cost much but I could see there being issues with getting footage from the actual events.

 

Here's another example of a trailer they did to recap the Crossfit Games:

[disland]

This thread was supposed to be about the format. But tangent here we go.

 

The biggest difference between waterski and crossfit is Dave Castro. Dont know who he is, google it.

 

Anyway waterski suffers from too much democracy which results in politics and bureaucracy. Crossfit has one guy calling the shots.

[BraceMaker]

@Rpc29 footage would be great, the scored trick runs are really cool to watch with the score and the trick being listed, in many ways the webcast format would be improved with recaps of the interesting stuff being prioritized over the hours of watching the waves dissipate.

[OSUwaterskier]

I think this is a great idea. Really like the analogy to a golf handicap - can put as many scores into the system as you want, but no one will believe you until you prove it in a tournament.

 

May be getting a little carried away here, but would be awesome to have some kind of leaderboard app that mixes in a periscope-type live feed where you could hop in and watch the sets of whoever is currently skiing/entering a score around the country/world? Would be awesome to keep an eye on those around you in the leaderboard. Does something like this exist in CrossFit?

 

Probably too ambitious since we still struggle to piece together a good feed of the largest ski tournament in the world...

[david_quail]

@OSUwaterskier Some good ideas there.

 

The crossfit open is all about feeling like you're part of a local and global community, and then competing within it. So as you say - a leaderboard including scores, videos etc, is one way to help this out.

 

With the Crossfit Open, they accomplish this in some ways including:

 

- They livestream the announcement of the weekly workout (Each of the 5 weeks (or is it 6?) is always a surprise) and have two of the worlds best athletes compete head to head. Lights, cameras, live audience, leaderboard etc. They have lots of $ to throw at this :|

- They have a global leaderboard. You can query how you compare against people your age, people in your country, in your state, etc. You can see video of those who have submitted video proof rather than a qualified judge

- Most crossfit gyms make a big deal of the workout and have everyone do it in an evening (or morning or whatever). At our gym they host "friday night lights" ... so instead of the usual trainer + 5 other people, the gym is full of 30 people doing the workout in heats, all the trainers, family and friends show up, lights, DJ, food, etc.

 

Many of these ideas translate to Slalom with a few tweaks. But the overall idea of bringing Slalom enthusiasts (everyone from Nate Smith to someone struggling to run 30mph, 15 off) from around the world to compete together using technology and local clubs, is a mighty fine one.

[OSUwaterskier]

Thanks for the insights, David! Awesome stuff. The early morning, public water slalom crews would be all over this - set up league's among your ski crew, instant facilitator of handicap based bragging rights.

 

What is the fee structure for participating in Crossfit Open? Couple bucks to submit your score each week? Subscription for the season? Subscription to get access to the announcement of each week's challenge? Does the gym pay the Crossfit Open organization to host an event where people set scores?

[jcamp]

It would be awesome if we could take low-pressure, local tournaments that give you multiple rounds and cost between $45 and $55 to enter, then feed everyone's scores into a rankings list that allows skiers to compare themselves to other skiers on the state, regional and national levels.

 

We could call this type of tournament "Class C."

[OSUwaterskier]

Good idea! Maybe also as part of those Class C tournaments, we could set it up so that it wastes your whole day and when you fall, you have to swim to shore and wait 4 hours to try again! Count me in!

[jcamp]

If skiing and being around friends/other skiers "wastes your whole day" then maybe skiing isn't your thing.

 

 

[OSUwaterskier]

Sorry @jcamp. Maybe your type of skiing is not my thing, as is the case with many I’m sure... if you can’t see the difference between this idea and Class C tournaments, I’m not sure this thread is for you.

 

Sorry to tangent again @disland. It’s hard to believe that there are still some that are not open to new ideas for this sport. Let me know how I can help - large group of early morning course skiers on our lake that would love this.

[jcamp]

@OSUwaterskier Why would we want to encourage water skiers to be even less social than they already are? Lots of people say the decline of Nationals began with the online rankings list. Why go to Nationals to see how you stack up if you can just look it online? I guess they have a point.

 

With what's proposed above, why ever leave your home lake to compete if you can just ski at home with your best buddy driver and submit your "best" score? No traveling to new sites, no meeting new people, no learning from others, no having to show up and actually test yourself.

[BraceMaker]

If only you both weren't so correct!

[MarcusBrown]

@disland I have to respectfully disagree.... CrossFit is not run by one man (Castro). Democracy should be a good thing...politics and bureaucracy a bad thing.... I think you and I would agree the latter 2 are the problem... Another problem we have is that we don't have $$ to do the things folks are proposing in this thread.

 

One example is the trailer above, for this years CrossFit Games Documentary that @Rpc29 shared. Just the thumbnail image itself includes artwork that probably cost them $20,000+. My buddies Marston and Heber (who helped me film the first FlowPoint Episode at Lake Powell) directed/edited/filmed that trailer and documentary (along with many other camera operators) and have been working on it since last August. $500,000 would be my super lowball estimation on how much this years production cost just to put together. Not saying its not possible, but trying to be realistic.

 

But, 11 years ago there were no CrossFit games. There were 70 athletes, at some dusty ranch, competing all day and toasting to good times that evening.....sounds pretty much like a water ski event. Only difference is Water Skiing has been like that since day 1....and CrossFit has exploded into a community-based lifestyle that tends to attract more people than it purges. Finding a way to apply some of their magic to our lifestyle wouldn't hurt.

 

A "CrossFit Open" style movement could definitely be a jumping off point. Maybe age-divisions could be shelved in place of ability-based divisions? I know its been beaten to death, but in the spirit of making things competitive and fun, maybe its something to keep in mind when going down this road of trying to create a compelling world-wide water ski movement?

[Rpc29]

Whoa @MarcusBrown I had no idea we were talking about that level of $$. Totally changes my thinking. However, short sub 5 minute event summaries might be more affordable and at least be a start?

[braindamage]

I think this is a great idea. Don’t over complicate it though, just follow @WBLskier and start posting scores. Add a video would be a great feature on a website as well.

 

I think this would promote local groups getting together to record their weekly scores.

[swaterkd]

There is already this type of thing going. For those who don't know about it it is called The Wednesday water ski league. It has been a lot of fun and teams from all over.

[Chef23]

I like the idea of golf handicap type of scoring to apply to your average. I don't think that would impact participation in tournaments.

 

I was a serious golfer between the ages of 22-38 before I got back in to skiing with my family. Having a round of golf played under the rules that contributes to your handicap is a good thing. I think a set of skiing with a driver and an observer acting as a judge on your home course could count toward your average.

 

In golf there is a big difference between a round on your home course and a real tournament round. I would expect that would still apply to skiing. There would obviously not be qualifying for Nationals without competing in Regionals. You could also have qualification for Nationals require a tournament average similar to today. I think it would be fine to have qualifications for Regionals based on your non-tournament average. If that gets more people to Regionals at least in the North East that would be a good thing.

 

I don't think that allowing these "home" scores would impact attendance at tournaments. I think most people that go to tournaments realize that it is difficult to take your practice scores to a tournament. I know I go to tournament to see how I do when some pressure is on and to see and hang out with a great group of people.

 

Some people don't want to spend a whole day for 2-3 sets and you aren't going to change them. My Dad who could run 28 off in the late 70s and early 80s was one of those guys which is why I didn't ski tournaments as a kid. It doesn't make them bad people they just have a different perspective on things. My Dad would ski two sets in the morning, go for a bike ride, wash the cars, cut the grass and maybe play 9 holes of golf in the afternoon. I love going to tournaments.

 

I know people are worried about sandbaggers, courses that aren't at spec, drivers that swerve etc. That all would get shaken out when they come to a tournament. Worst case is maybe they ski closer to the end of the order than they should. There are both sandbaggers in golf (who use it to their benefit to win handicap events) and vanity handicaps. To me that doesn't outweigh the benefits of making it easier to have a ranking.

 

I don't have any idea of the actual numbers but I would guess there are thousands if not tens of thousands of people in the US that ski the course but don't have a ranking average. I know at our courses maybe half of the people (or less) that use them regularly ski tournaments and have an average. I think a USGA handicap costs $50 and comes with a USGA membership. Access to the ranking lists for "home" scores included with the base USA Waterski membership might help spur membership and interest. It couldn't hurt and I don't see the downside.

 

[BraceMaker]

That Wednesday league is cool. Be cooler for the teams to actively want tons of members like a bonus for number of weekly participants.

[jayski]

@MarcusBrown must be money somewhere if they can build that complex in Florida! ;) Maybe that will be the "Waterski Open finals" site like CF always has theirs in Cali...

[Chef23]

@BraceMaker the issue with tons of members sometimes is water time. Particularly at public water sites sometimes there is limited access to quality water. We are ok at our site but I know for example we don't have time to add another skier to our morning group. After work time is a little more flexible but quality water and daylight become issues. Weekends tend to be better until about 11.

[RazorRoss3]

When every set is 20 minutes and every skier wants 2 sets it's hard to have more than 3 or 4 in the boat no matter what time of day or day of week you are skiing. Only so much time in the day.

[BraceMaker]

@Chef23 it's the duality of ALL of these conversations.

 

Q: The sport is dying what can we do to grow involvement in the sport???

 

A: maybe we should get more people onto skiing and create formats that encourage growth and involvement.

 

R: whoa we already have too many people trying to ski and only 3 or 4 people can take sets.

 

So the question becomes how the heck are people supposed to become interested in a sport where our venues only accommodate a small number of participants.

 

And I pose this as someone who maintains 2 prostar 190s to try to accommodate guests and pull them skiing but cannot get a course installed on our lake.

 

A format where clubs could let people score a round over a lunch break, or 2-4 people who can get a late start or a early day can punch a score card and use some private water, even to score a mini course entry might make growth and spark interest.

 

But as @OSUwaterskier said I take my wife to a local tournament and she won't stay more than 45 minutes, let alone 5 hours. And she can slalom but has no interest in sitting around when she can get a pull at our lake even with no course then go about her day.

 

 

[OSUwaterskier]

Is the goal to get more people on skis or is the goal to get more course skiers involved in some type of competition and grow “competitive” waterskiing? This concept is probably geared more towards the latter but maybe eventually would have some impact on the former?

 

I don’t think the idea creates more water time, it just allows people to join the fun with the water time they can afford and have available to them.

[braindamage]

I think this would get people like me who love to open water ski and probably could run a course to give it a try and get into it. That may bleed to my kids who also like to ski.

 

Otherwise I’ll be perfectly happy to do my 3-4x/ week early am runs with my small ski group.

[APB]

@WBLskier so rad. are you guys interested in having a canadian team enter? we have a great group of dudes... all abilities that would love to join.

[WBLskier]

@APB for sure. We’ll be getting our updated website launched in the next month or so. In the meantime if you want more info just pm me.

[JeffSurdej]

I just read this whole thread and I'm very intrigued. This is not the first time this has been thrown my way. I have received numerous emails indicating the need for allowing practice scores, and at the recent WSIA summit there was an in depth discussion that we need to find a format that appeals to the Saturday morning group of guys that are not going to spend a weekend at a tournament.

 

@Chef23 boy did you hit it on the head with this paragraph. I don't have any idea of the actual numbers but I would guess there are thousands if not tens of thousands of people in the US that ski the course but don't have a ranking average. Access to the ranking lists for "home" scores included with the base USA Waterski membership might help spur membership and interest.

 

 

So lets discuss how we could really do this:

 

1) With the new $19.95 membership, this base price could be the membership level that allows you to enter "practice scores"

2) We currently have class F/GR, $40 sanction fee, all you need is a trained driver and safety...is that too much? would this just be the sanction these practice scores would be entered under or do we need even more relax conditions.

3) We already allow class F scores up to L5

4) If class F is too much regulation than how would practice scores be entered, any proof? tricks would be easy as we could have volunteers call runs, but slalom a little tougher although a video would suffice, would the video have to be contigious, no turning off and on?

5) I agree with what all have said in the fact that who cares if someone qualifies for regional on practice scores, they have to show up and proof it but the way we do our rankings it would be an issue b/c we have guys right now that rank top 5-10 and never show up at reg/nat and I dont think we would want someone to win rankings via practice scores so if we do this then we have to finally weight our rankings to have a formula that gives more weight to scores done at big events?

 

So how can we make this work?

[ALPJr]

Makes sense to me. At least 75% of the skiers I know don't go to tournaments. Seems like having a way to gauge where your skill level is among a larger group of skiers would be good and possibly spur interest in going to a tourney it two.

[skispray]

@JeffSurdej it's awesome that people in leadership positions are thinking outside the box like you are.

 

I've thought about this a bit and I think the amount of people required to run a tournament; that is, the number of people required to verify a 'legit score', is a bit ridiculous. In order for a score to count you've gotta have a rated driver, boat judge, tower judges, etc. Compare it to crossfit where you do the workout and you have one certified judge being trusted to accurately certify your score. But at the same time, I get it. Water skiing is unique in that an outsider (the driver) can have an enormous impact on a skier's scores. I've been wondering why technology couldn't help with score verification. I'm not sure of the current capabilities of gps, but how cool would it be if zero off could be used to verify boat path? And why couldn't sensors like the one linked below be attached to a ski to verify path for slalom, distance for jump, and hell maybe even verify credit for tricks? Maybe it's a pipe dream but it sure seems like we're getting to the point where all of this would be possible.

 

https://www.litprolive.com

[Chef23]

@JeffSurdej I think you are over complicating things with sanctioning and safety. For a golf score to count towards your handicap all you need is to play a full round of golf under the handicap rules with a witness (you may be able to submit solo rounds but I am a little out of date on the rules). My thought is you should only need the following.

 

1. Boat with speed control that can verify time is good. PP or ZO is fine.

2. Spotter in the boat.

3. Skier declares it is a score to be recorded before the set.

 

I know it is simple but I think that is enough. I don’t think you should limit the level you can be ranked at but you need some real tournament scores to qualify for Regionals & Nationals. Maybe there is some sort of notification for if they are practice only scores.

 

For golf each golfer self records their scores for their handicap and notes where it is a tournament. Tournament scores carry more weigth in that I believe they stay in your handicap longer. The handicap system is based on honor and the fact that most golfers belong to a club where they play with other golfers regularly. If a golfer plays in a tournament outside of their club they are responsible for recording their own score. It doesn’t matter if it is a member guest or the US Amateur. I don’t see why a similar system wouldn’t work for water ski handicaps.

 

I understand the issues about honesty, quality drivers and are courses in spec. My position is who really cares. All of that will shake out when a skier shows up at a tournament. If a skier has a vanity handicap worst case is they might start later in the order than they should. No real harm. If someone’s handicap is too low you generally aren’t using it for the competition so still no harm. In addition there isn’t generally money involved like a handicapped golf match or event so the incentive to have your average artificially low goes away.

 

For golf every full round is supposed to go into your handicap and 10 best of last 20 scores calculate your handicap. Using a system like this would get a lot more scores into your average. I do think that you should have to declare that a set is a scoring set. Frequently I know I might not be happy with a practice pass so I will decide to repeat it. For a scoring set you would just have to move on down the rope.

 

I think this could drive more attendance at tournaments. If you have an average online you might be interested in going to a local tournament. Maybe not but who knows.

 

I am not a developer but it doesn’t seem like a complicated app. I would guess you could get a computer science intern from a local college to build it as part of a class.

 

I think the $19.99 membership for access to this is great. You would have to pay an upgrade to ski in a tournament.

[Chef23]

@BraceMaker my post my have come across more closed than it should have. We have a site on public water where anyone with a boat can come and ski at no cost. We do have a small club and we try to collect $50 or so from people that use the course to cover costs to maintain the courses.

 

You do have to have a boat there is no club boat and there is no beach our place to park and get picked up by the courses. Anyone who shows up at the course is able to join the rotation.

 

I have introduced people on this forum to our courses and invited people to park at my house and taken them out for a set in the course.

 

We all have limited time though. I don't run a ski school or club. I have a job and a family with busy kids (although next year they will both be in college so I will have more time) which limits the time I have available. Maybe I am selfish about not wanting to add more skiers to my weekday morning rotation so I get to ski but I don't feel bad about that.

[disland]

@JeffSurdej

 

No sanction. Dont need it. I do suggest a nominal fee like $5 per score entry for admin expense. Plus you have to be a member obviously.

 

Level 10 scores are not eligible. Not really an issue as we know who they are and they ski a lot of tournaments anyway.

 

Tricks have to send in a video. Only for verification not to re-judge

 

Jump- must use video,no meters.

[Chef23]

@disland I disagree with having to pay to submit scores that is going to prevent people from submitting scores and objective is to get more participation. If you can get more people to join USA Water Sports at $19.99 a piece because they want a handicap that should work.

 

I don't think you should have to submit video for tricks or jump. Tricks get tough because of the 20 second timer which most people don't have. The whole system is going to be somewhat dependent on the honor system anyway and I don't think anyone is going to review the videos at HQ anyway.

 

Regarding jump I think most jump sites these days that I am aware of have Splasheye. If a site has Splasheye I think that is enough to submit a score.

 

If someone really wants to cheat to submit scores who really cares. When they show up at a tournament they will be exposed. We need to make it as easy as possible to participate.

 

This is different than even a class F tournament where a group of skiers come together. Those are still a blast. To me this is a Wednesday and Friday morning when I am skiing with my regular group and I jump in the water on my first set and say this is going to be a score I submit for my average.

[disland]

@Chef23 Agree with all that. My only reason for the nominal fee was to create some sort of limit so the system doesnt get overwhelmed.

 

For jump I didnt suggest a video had to be sent in only that scores for meters dont count. I dont want to get into a situation where people put distance buoys out there and start using those for scores.

[Chef23]

@disland I agree that you can't just estimate by a buoy for jump that is why my suggestion is for Splasheye. If people have another method to accurately measure jumps I think that is fine but I am not aware of one.

 

If there is an automated system hopefully once set up it won't require a ton of work. I think most of the scores would be slalom scores.

 

I see this as much closer to a golf handicap score than the Crossfit Open. The Crossfit Open qualifies people to go to Regionals which is a big deal and needs to be verified. For example a golf handicap can qualify you to enter a qualifying tournament for the State Amateur then you have to out and play well in the qualifier to get to States. It could be similar for waterskiing. Your handicap could qualify you for States and if you ski well at States you could get to Regionals. You could always qualify for Regionals the old fashioned way by skiing multiple tournaments.