The farther you lean / pull past centerline ...

[Horton]

Maybe this makes me “Captain Obvious” but I had never thought about his before yesterday:

 

The farther you lean / pull past centerline - the more your shoulders have to move to the inside when you do edge change. I have not exactly wrapped my head around explaining why this is but I am sure that if you transition at the centerline you can almost just bring your feet and shoulders into the same vertical plane. The farther past centerline you are when you transition the more your shoulders will move to the inside and your feet to the outside.

 

(Now I get to sit back and read the 100,000,000 words @adamhcaldwell / @AdamCord are going to write explaining the why this is. I am hoping for words like tangent and coefficient or maybe even exponent)

 

[mwetskier]

personally i appreciate every single word either adam has ever written about the sport. on a related note, if you could write one word per second, 100,000,000 words would require a little over 3 years to complete. hopefully they'll express their thoughts in less time than that.

 

[Brady]

@mwetskier you are eerie-Ingly starting to sound like @Than_Bogan. Please lord no!!!! I still can’t get the physics of how to jump over a 6 foot pole vault out of my mind.

[Stevie Boy]

Slightly different perspective, I am trying to always transition at the CL , working on the concept the shorter the line the more you need to lean, have to ask is there any returns, for " Pull /Lean past the C/L "

Most things that I have read suggest not, my opinion is that, if you have not generated enough speed into the C/L, after the C/L the boat will take control and you will be forced to go with it, if you don,t you have got a fight on your hands to complete the pass.

I feel that " Lean / Pull " after the C/ L results in the boat trying to take you to the inside of the course, when we are trying to ski outside of the course.

Based on what @Horton is saying, too much movement, ie, shoulders to the inside and feet to the outside, results in what I describe as flip/flop skiing, with so much movement it has got to be much harder to achieve consistency in varied water/wind conditions.

[Than_Bogan]

Also, I'm pretty sure @Than_Bogan would annoyingly point out that eerie-ingly isn't even close to a word.

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan don’t confuse a good story with the truth.

[Brady]

@Than_Bogan exactly!!! Love you brudda!

[mwetskier]

@Brady -actually i'm thankful @Horton didn't exaggerate all the way to ' a billion '. if you could write one word per second 24 hours a day, writing one billion words would take you roughly 32 years. a trillion words would take around 32,000 years.

 

reminds me of a old joke: ' three brazilian soldiers were killed today in iraq...

hey folks,. can somebody please tell me just exactly how many is a brazilian? ' -jay leno

 

[Horton]

@mweskier ok I regret making the joke. Back to slalom skiing please.

 

@Stevie Boy For sure it is not ideal to pill past the centerline but in the real world we do not always do what is ideal.

 

I like the term "Flip/ Flop skiing" I am going to use that.

[Adam Caldwell]

If you don’t pull after centerline then how do you keep the handle swinging fast around the pylon to reach a wider point further up on the boat before releasing off the handle?

 

Is it true to say that If your not pulling after CL then you are litterallly getting pulled-apart?

 

Need to figure out a way to “pull” and remain connected in a way that is conducive to swing speed without creating load on the ski when executing said “ pull”.

 

This just goes back to the definition of what “pull” really means and the objective behind it.

 

Short enough?

 

 

[Stevie Boy]

@adamhcaldwell would this involve transferring load from the outside arm to the inside arm ?

[mwetskier]

@adamhcaldwell - you wrote ' Need to figure out a way to “pull” and remain connected in a way that is conducive to swing speed without creating load on the ski when executing said “ pull”. '

 

When i read that i interpret it to mean your goal is to actively preserve your angular momentum without simultaneously increasing your vulnerability to the restorative force. would that be correct?

 

[Stevie Boy]

@mwetskier Wow ! I Guess, I should just go Ski, Pro comment "If You Start To Think, You Are Done" courtesy of Will Asher.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell Semantics? In this instance I'm using the word "pull" to mean the top of the ski is facing away from the boat and the skier trying to lean away from the pylon. It's not very good terminology but this sport is full of bad terminology.

[mwetskier]

@Stevie Boy -allow me to retort: ' most skiers stop thinking too soon. ' andy mapple

[AdamCord]

@Horton that's one of the most confused and misunderstood aspects of the sport. Caldwell is talking about load on line, and you're talking about load on your feet against the boat. Understanding the difference is key. You can easily have 600lbs of load in the rope on the 2nd whitewash, but no load on the ski. In fact, you should strive to have that.

 

blah blah centripetal force tangential trajectory blah blah coefficient of friction optimized efficiency blah pythagorean theorem exponential velocity blah.

[Horton]

@AdamCord okay how about if we just say point of transition in relation to the center line

[andjules]

@AdamCord while we could/should do better with the terms, we have conventionally called one of those things "pull" (or "lean"), and the other we have called "staying connected". You're definitely throwing some helpful light on the latter, but at the same time we had two terms that "everyone" kind of understands.

"Pull" ("lean") = trying to accelerate laterally/tangentially, by having load on your feet, leaning away from the pylon, ski on edge away from the boat

"Staying connected" = ski neutral or on inside edge, and as you point out, no load on feet; no longer trying to accelerate laterally/tangentially; but maintaining load on body, not "surrendering" body to the inside.

Correct? And of course there is the transition between those two states.

 

We could try calling them something else, but that'd be a whole "terminology campaign", and those rarely work out well (e.g. trailing vs leading arm, onside/offside vs heelside/toeside).

 

[Wish]

@andjules You've discribed things well but the missing section I would say is from CL (your pull/lean phase when that ends at CL) to ski being on inside edge (your stay connected phase). The missing section would be from CL to the new edge which is where the thread title refers. It's there that pull/lean and stay connected get lost in skiers understanding do to the terms everyone is used to. Change is hard but may be nessisarry for better understanding.

 

I believe that's Adams point. Changing the terms may be nessisarry. Pull/lean and Stay connected are very misleading IMHO. Lean is ski load and pull is line load however that is generated. I've been working with a couple skiers over the winter and the idea of pressuring the line (pull) vs pressuring he ski (lean) has been an eye opener for them and me for that matter. Telling someone to stop pulling/leaning, as you put it, after CL but to stay connected actually is a difficult concept to rap ones head around as you are still pulling (line load). That and pull makes skiers pull in with arms. But to tell someone they can continue to load the line (pull) but can no longer be loading the ski (lean) at CL separates the two concepts so each is better understood. It gets the skier to keep line load but scrub ski load at or even starting befor CL which is the desired outcome. It's not really that big of a term jump but it does provide more clarity.

 

[Horton]

You guys may recall that I actually set up a wiki a few months ago so we as a group could build a lexicon and no one cared. I guess if we all used the same terminology and understood each other we would not have as much to talk about. :(

[Wish]

Maybe stop leaning at CL but keep pulling.? Not a fan of the term pulling but it's better then combining the terms pull and lean in the same definition.

[Horton]

In reality I think the term Pulling is likely bad in all uses but it is a very common term in the sport.

[andjules]

@Wish a couple of things:

 

a) no question that the terms aren't ideal; so in one way I applaud the Adams for digging deeper for meaning, but at the same time, I'm not sure that it's going to be helpful to try to redefine "pull" to mean something completely different than what our whole community understands (as per @adamhcaldwell's comment above)

 

b) agreed, the "staying connected" part isn't all that well understood, and lots of us (me!!) struggle to execute. Ironically(?), I think you misunderstood me, as I'd include the transition as part of staying connected (rolling off the 'away' edge, through flat and onto the inside edge, while still providing some resistance/feeling some load with the upper body). "Staying connected" in my mind is a process through the transition, not a state at the end of the transition.

 

c) I don't think I agree with your definition of pull (line load) vs lean (ski load); that's kinda my point, most skiers — rightly or wrongly — think of them as synonyms. For sure, I'd agree that "lean" has usually been less ambiguous than "pull". But (as per @adamhcaldwell comment above, calling what happens after the CL a kind of "pull") I think we're gonna make more problems than we'd solve if we try to redefine "pull" for the whole community. I think a more helpful way to describe line tension/staying connected after the CL is: there is a skill in "being pulled" after the CL; where "staying connected" can be done well — what the Adams are helping us think about differently — or poorly, e.g. "getting separated".

[ski6jones]

Why not just describe it as line tension, like you just did? "a more helpful way to describe line tension/staying connected"

[Wish]

Could not agree more on pull...do not like that term at all. Not a big fan of lean either. As written in Hortons post but altered a bit, "The farther you pressure the ski past centerline the more......" Doesn't sound all that confusing to me I guess. We came to accept the term "counter rotation" from West Coast Slalom, misunderstood it and moved away from the term. I think "stacked" is now an accepted term that has very recent roots. To me, line load vs ski load does define things better off CL and are more easily understood when talking about certain elements of skiing. Pull, lean and connected seem to muddy things a bit. What means pull, lean, connected to someone (where, when and how much) may not mean the same to someone else especially based on age. But agree, change is hard. Look how long it took for " counter rotation" to be sorted out and it probably still hasn't.

 

To your point ""...the transition as part of staying connected (rolling off the 'away' edge, through flat and onto the inside edge, while still providing some resistance/feeling some load with the upper body""...aka... keep line load but not ski load off CL. Sound simpler maybe?? :/ I don't know but it works for me and several skiers who have had a big ah ha moment.

[andjules]

Yes, "keep line load but not ski load after CL" also made me stop and take note after I read something like that from one of the Adams.

 

I think pull/lean was a necessary concept for all of us when we were in that lower-intermediate free skiing stage, just starting to get cross the wakes aggressively. We come to understand that we need to turn towards the wake and "pull" (or "lean") in the tug-of-war sense, not the slot-machine-lever sense (ie. with leverage, with your body, not by bending your arm). In my mind, by the time you're running the course at 28-30mph, you've come to understand those basics. The things we're talking about in this thread are way beyond more nuanced, of course.

[Adam Caldwell]

@mwetskier - More or less.

 

If we are going to add clarity to this then we need to add context to the word 'pull'. I think the word Pull is fine, we just need to be clear in the understanding of the difference in application before and after CL.

 

#1 The DOWN-SWING

Handle travels in an opposite direction the boat as it moves cross course.

 

A DOWNswing-Pull (buoyline into CL) is an effort made by the skier to increase the rate of rope swing around the pylon prior to reaching CL. (@Hortons definition is spot on during this phase). The skiers objective is to connect their COM to the rope as much as humanly possible on the approach into CL without becoming separated due to the resulting forces on the ski.

 

The classic 'lean away & hips up' pull position is how we accomplish this. It puts us in a position to use the ski to drive us across course while we effectively connect our COM to the handle to maximize rotational swing-speed of the rope. The trick is to control Pitch/Yaw/Roll during the downswing to CL such that its conducive for a productive transition into the upswing after CL.

 

#2 - A TRANSITION AT CENTER-LINE (Changing directions)

The instant we hit CL the handle changes directions. It is no longer traveling in the opposite direction as the boat during the downswing and will start to travel in the same direction the boat is going. This is where the down-swing ends and the up-swing starts.

 

#3 The UP-SWING

Handle is traveling in the same direction as the boat as it travels across course.

 

An UPswing-Pull is then an effort made by the skier to continue to keep the COM connected to the rope as much as possible in order to keep the swing speed of the rope HIGH and continue to get productive energy from the boat. Executed successfully and you will reduce the amount of time it takes to swing around the pylon, therefor making your apex earlier and creating more space before the ball.

 

This connection is classically known as 'advance' or 'handle control'. During which the arms and core are actively engaged to keep the COM as close to the handle as possible after CL until reaching the buoy-line (or appropriate width to turn the ball). This is still considered a "pull",

but note that this is not a pull to actively pull the handle away from the boat with a loaded ski. There is a huge difference. If the ski is on a loaded edge, this Upswing-pull to remain connected is nearly impossible to do, and why we want to un-weight the ski early, although not necessarily edge change early.

 

Pitch, yaw and roll angle of the ski in the early stages of the upswing will tremendously influence the skiers ability to remain connected during the swing around the pylon.

 

The objective is the similar during both the up-swing & down-swing pull. Which is to maximize the connection between our COM and the handle. However, the role the ski plays in each phase of the pull is different.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell I am not sure if we can get UpSwing-Pull & DownSwing-Pull in to the common lexicon but I like it.

 

My original point is that if you are past Center Line and your ski is still in DownSwing Mode all kinds of bad things are happening and getting worse.

[Chet]

In my humble opinion pull is what the boat does. When a jumper comes into the ramp he or she is pulled across the wake, over the fiberglass surface and into the air. They hope it keeps pulling them in the air and down the lake to maximize distance. Similar to downswing and upswing. Despite the absence of anything under their skis (but air) they continue to ride the pull from the boat. We do things like lean or compress while attempting to hold angle but pull is the domain of the boat. Hopefully the boat keeps pulling us wide even in the upswing phase of the move. Absence from this pull is disconnect or freedom from the boat.

Knowing that the most direct pull from the boat is directly behind the boat. The angle of attack is critical at that specific moment... where you ski is pointed determines where the boat will pull you out or in. Connect or disconnect possibilities.

[JAS]

Was at the lake the other day and heard my ski buddy yelling "pull harder". Actually was pretty good coaching for his wife to get the lawnmower started that had been sitting all winter. It worked!

[Adam Caldwell]

Newtons Third Law tells me I better be pulling. How else will the boat have anything to pull?

 

I think what @Chet is getting at is we are constantly being pulled toward the pylon via the centripetal force of the rope. Trying to drag the boat down to prevent it from moving forward is useless. BUT, pulling to stay connected against the very real and very powerful centripetal force during the swing, on both sides of CL, is a absolute must.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ed_Johnson]

@JAS ...So his Wife is cutting the grass ?? Does she drive the boat too ?? That would be one lucky Guy !!!

 

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell in the end I do not like the word "pull" for upswing because so many skiers hear that word and think they should pull the handle up their body at edge change.

[DefectiveDave]

The boat pulls us and provides all of our energy, we push on the water in various ways to facilitate the desired relative motion.

[andjules]

The word "pull" is like the word "love": it has a lot of different meanings in a lot of different contexts (e.g. "I love steak, cats, my child, Jesus, and Scarlett Johansson"). I'm with @Horton: when used for the upswing/transition, one way or another, "pull" is going to leave the wrong impression in a lot of people's minds, just because it's an ambiguous word.

 

In a tug-of-war, "pull" means "a leveraged lean, away, with your body" (that's how coaches and skiers from the pre-ZO era, e.g. Lucky Lowe, used it historically); but standing in front of a slot machine, it means "bend your arm". I don't think it lends itself to the kind of nuanced resistance we're talking about in the transition/upswing (but I like the "downswing"/"upswing" concept).

[Dano]

Sounds like edge changing while maintaining outbound direction is the desired effect. Essentially swinging on the end of the line (keeps line loaded with no input from the ski). I could. E totally wrong here but that's how I have interpreted the convo.

[dchristman]

Instead of "upswing" how about calling it the "follow-through"? It's the movement following the downswing-pull.

[Cam]

@dchristman follow through also has a few different meanings and not all in a sporting context :blush:

[AkBob]

I think downswing/ upswing is a perfect way to describe what going on. It splits the discussion to before and after centerline. Reminds me of old alpine ski terms. Old days we talked about pressure on the downhill ski... then it morphed to inside/outside ski and things became easier to describe and understand. Hats off to the Adams for adding some clarity.

[Horton]

@dchristman I understand what your are saying but "Follow Through" is arguably less descriptive than "Handle Control". I have to say I think new terms are not always a good thing when we do not even all agree on the common ones.

 

I think the term "Connection" is maybe the best way to talk about "UpSwing- Pull". @adamhcaldwell's terminology is more descriptive but holy crap are we going to have a whole new set of misunderstandings when we use that term with skiers who have not read this thread.

 

@adamhcaldwell do you agree that "UpSwing- Pull" describes where the skier is in relation to the CL more than it describes what the skier is doing? After CL you are in UpSwing but you often still have your lean from your DownSwing Pull.

 

 

[Horton]

On another tangent.

 

@Chet @AdamCord @adamhcaldwell

If we agree that the perfect skier has his greatest lean at CL AND does not lean way from the pylon after CL, should the human skier choose to edge change early to avoid leaning away after CL or choose to maintain max lean until centerline knowing that they will be in a lean mode past CL and longer than is ideal.

 

I propose that most skiers pull longer than they should so by trying to edge change early they may actually transition closer to the CL.

[AdamCord]

@Horton When I ski my goal is to get my ski completely flat by CL. I very infrequently actually achieve that, but by aiming for that goal it gets me to start the transition earlier than I would otherwise. We are moving really fast when passing through the wakes, so if you want to be off the cutting edge before the upswing starts, the process starts well before the 1st wake. If you're not starting the transition until after the upswing starts, it's way way too late.

[jimbrake]

trailing arm up-swing pressure into the heel side

[liquid d]

I think some clarification might be needed for some less advanced skiers reading this forum.

To have the ski flat behind the boat is not imho what anyone should be trying to achieve. I think maybe you mean that at that point you (and advanced skiers) should be shifting from the heaviest load to the transition to the edge change which will happen a bit further out.

 

Maybe a clarification for ...Skiers that are not that advanced need to make sure they've maintained the edge through the wakes, and the trough on the other side. A flat ski in the trough is no bueno. And less advanced skiers at longer lines have not created enough angle, power, speed to get wide and early at the next bouy.

[Wish]

@liquid d I think lots of long line slower speed skiers are taught poor habits/techniques and lots of misguided concepts. Seth on the other hand sorta proves Adam correct. Second trough...nothing but air.

 

[Horton]

@liquid d Yes this is an advanced concept. I believe that a skier who runs 32 or 35 or beyond should in fact try to ride a flat ski at center line. The reality is that because of the dynamics of what is going on, the ski will very quickly roll to the turning edge without the skier leaning it over.

 

If the skier tries to "Switch Edges" and get onto the turning edge they will immediately begin to decelerate and feel fast at the ball. If the skier tries to go to a flat ski at centerline the ski will still flow away from the pylon but at a slower rate and the skier will maintain more speed to make space in front of the ball.

 

To go a step farther, I have heard some very advanced skiers advocate keeping their shoulders leaned away from the boat while rolling the ski to flat at Center Line to maintain the max speed off the second wake. This can only happen for a split second but if you want to run 41 off these things matter.

 

@liquid d back to your point - No. I would not tell a less advanced skier to ever ride a flat ski especially through the wakes. I totally hear and agree with your objection. My point is theoretical and for short rope.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

A key thing missing from this discussion is speed. At any given line length, the skier needs to have enough speed to get high (wide) on the boat to get around the buoy with margin. To make an exaggerated example, if you can get up to 90mph 10 feet before the first wake, you can start your edge change there and still get enough downswing to be early for the next buoy.

 

Advanced skiers (38 or shorter) are capable of generating enough speed that they can change edges in the middle of the wakes. Intermediate skier (28-35off) don’t normally get enough speed and have to pull longer, per liquid d’s comment.

 

Regardless of ability level or speed, keeping the handle tied close to the hip/com during and after the edge change is THE critical piece of the puzzle.

[Adam Caldwell]

@horton, thanks for being the scapegoat goat in this thread. Lol.

 

Not being rude here... just pushing boundaries... but explain to me why you would not want to pull, or try to pull the handle up the body after CL. Why would that be bad? What negative is there?

 

(If there is any negative then it would only be due to failure of creating the appropriate energy in the downswing of the rope prior to crossing CL.)

 

The best skiers in the history of our sport are doing exactly that. Including one of your favorites, TW.

 

Sure, the mechanics of the movement are a little different entering a HS turn versus a toeside turn, but conceptually, it’s an effort to keep the COM and Ski as close to the handle as possible until you have traveled around the pylon far enough to reach the buoy line. If you can keep connected to that point, the release from the handle will kill the swing (causing the rope to apex, In orther words, terminate the upswing and begin the down swing) and allow you to ski further away from the handle and pylon while the boat starts to move away and initiate the ropes acceleration into the next downswing.

 

The effort of quite literally pulling your body to the handle in the upswing is hugely beificial - long as the ski is unloaded and flat or on the turning edge.

 

I taught this to some 22/28/32 off guys three weeks ago after briefing them on the concepts of GUT. You wouldn’t believe the difference in their skiing. Even they couldn’t believe it. I wish I had before and after video to share. Most people would think that it’s “too” advanced. Nope. This is basic shit. It works and 15 off and it works at 41. It’s just been highly misunderstood by way too many people.

 

Pulling with your arms has a place in this sport. It’s just learning when to do it and when not to do it.

 

In fact, if you ever want to challenge yourself to run a two handed pass at 28, 32, 35 or 38 off, you’ll realize in a hurry that if your elbows come off your body before the buoy line, you’ll never have a chance.

 

 

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

The terminology of upswing and downswing should probably be reserved for those actually trying to understand what’s going on in this sport.

 

They way I have taught the concept for the last 6 years, the upswing and downswing concept is huge for people. I usually use it to explain why the handle path differ greatly during the two stages of the swing. Then we build on that idea to understand why and how it’s possible to take a lot of angle into CL, but not practical or effective to take a lot of angle away from CL. I used the upswing/downswing to help people realize there is a reason behind why you have to start a turn/directional change at the CL, without loosing a rock solid connection.

 

[Wish]

TW at 1/4 speed is the epitome of what Adam discribes off CL. I can't think of a better visual and have always thought TW was doing something special off the CL long before GUT or any of it. Just didn't know what it was back then. He IS pulling or keeping as much load as humanly possible and physics will allow to stay connected. Hay, I just used all the terms. But seriously, look at his arms off CL. There is no one I know with an earlier edge change as well. Almost 0 ski load at CL or flat ski or however you want to say/teach it. He's striving for that long before he gets there. I did Cords 39 off drill to get high (next to the windshield) on the boat. I've never had to "pull" so hard or take as much load on the upswing as I did that day. Anything less and I was 45 degrees at best.

.

Love watching this: