Zero Off Announces New Software for 3 Event Water Skiing

[Horton]

It's humorous that half of the Ballers complained incessantly when they couldn't get this update soon enough and then the other half of the Ballers are complaining now that it's issued

[Drago]

@Horton "monza setting" = G9

It is a shame the upgrade starts next yr....

[markchilcutt]

Help is on its way everyone. Everything is going to work out great!

[Jordan]

All I know is that mine goes to eleven!

[disland]

@Horton I dont think its complaining that its out, the disappointing thing is why Zero off as a company seems to have no interest in communicating with its customers about its product. The web site sucks, the press release is a joke. For example USAWS issued a press release that says zero off announced the new version. The so called announcement isnt even on the zero off web page. Maybe that why they named is zero, because zero information, zero support,zero help, zero backward compatibility, zero,zero,zero

[Horton]

@disland if I worked at zero off & saw this thread I would think....

why did we bother create this new version for the skiers. The previous version worked fine. We give the skiers what they asked for and they complain even more. Maybe we should never give them another upgrade again

[RAWSki]

I understand both @Horton excitement and others frustration.....(especially since they aren't provided a current boat each season) . Constant improvement\development is a good thing, making it difficult and costly is Not. Creating even more options adds confusion we don't need . ------ why the + and not just D E F?

I will probably try the new settings if and when I upgrade but don't believe I am at the level that will truly benefit from them. Let me know when they create a pull like my old AccuSki . B)

[disland]

@horton If I worked at Zero off and I read that post I would think.

 

1. we just released a new version of software, how can we monetize that?

2. Who has a list of all our customers?

3. Lets send each an email advertising this upgrade and why its so awesome.

4. Let put together a campaign to get all of them to upgrade. At $450 each how much revenue is that.

5. Lets make it super easy to upgrade so we can maximize the take rate

6. Lets put together a white paper explaining how it works to cater to the crazzy baller guys tech wienies so that can tell all the other ballers why this is so awesome so they all have to run out and get it.

7. Lets have Dave Goode do one of those videos with Regina explaining why this new software is all going to get us more buoys.

8. Lets do a deal with Ball of spray where they post the code on their site, with a tutorial on how to do the upgrade.

9. Lets do an interview with Nate Smith and Chris Parish where they tell everyone why they love the new version and we can post it on Ball of Spray.

 

And I would do all of this before lunch, because its that easy.

[Weappa]

@Horton - perhaps a BOS volume discount on one puck upgrades could be worked out!

[MISkier]

I am happy to get this new upgrade. I’ll do the single puck conversion when financially possible. I’ll suggest that the club boat (already single puck) receive the update as soon as possible.

 

I am interested to hear feedback from those that get it and try it. Watching for a thread here from early adopters.

[bishop8950]

@disland Econtrols customer list is simple: Nautique, Mastercraft, Fineline, Malibu and any other Boat manufacturer using the product. While you are the end user, you do not spend money on their systems other than parts and replacement pucks. I bet the percentage of systems sold into ski boats is a fraction of wake boats and the ski boat system is much more senstative and therefore harder work for less return. There are probably less than 10 people (econtrols and otherwise) that do the design and engineering for our 3 event system. I doubt there is a budget for end user marketing. People can criticize from the sideline but unless you know the company and the isssues/budgets/resources etc they face its often off target. Your ideas on marketing make sense and would be great, but the question econtrols needs to answer is: would these efforts increase profit and revenue?

[Dirt]

Maybe all of the above comments are a good reason not to let anyone have a monopoly on speed control. Why not let people run perfect pass if the times are good?

[The_MS]

Hopefully it will make them think about it.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@MS - make who think about it? If you mean USAWS, YGBSM.

[The_MS]

@Bruce_Butterfield both ZO and USAWS

I don’t know what I was thinking.

 

We don’t care because we don’t have to.

[The_MS]

Make speed control great again

[LeonL]

I have heard (there I go no first hand info) that some boats with dual puck CANNOT be converted to single puck without extensive changes. Anyone confirm or deny?

[markchilcutt]

@LeonL I spoke with a tech at Zero Off yesterday. To change my 2014 prostar from dual antenna to single is $450.00 that covers the software change, new puck and puck cable. If you or someone you know doesn't have the required cable to connect from computer to the head unit to perform the software upgrade you will need to purchase it for an additional $250.00.

[bishop8950]

@dirt, I dont think Perfect Pass was disallowed as much as boat manufacturers just don’t offer it and therefore it is not a configuration that is tested and approved by USAWS. Perfect pass sold their OEM rights as their choice.

[disland]

@bishop8950 OK I'll bite, They already developed the software so that's sunk cost. Sure a certain number of people will upgrade because they are in the know and live for this stuff. But just for fun lets say with a little marketing they sell 1000 additional units at $450 thats $450,000. Now sure you dont need a full time marketing person. So you hire a consultant to execute on my list. That would cost maybe $10K. Seems like a decent ROI to me.

[The_MS]

They are committed to exceed customers expectations

[vtjc]

Just when I thought I was getting current, having gotten a boat with Zero Off... I have a dual puck ZO system, so I will need to buy a single puck to install and utilize this. At least the software is free. Those with single puck boats don’t need to pay anything if they have a cable or access to a cable.

 

This is sort of the Apple iPhone model iOS updates are free, but you need to have fairly current hardware (iPhone 5S or later) to run the latest OS.

 

The Perfect Pass model used to charge for chip updates, bundled with hardware to deliver it.

[Milford]

Wow, tough crowd. Here is my take on the new upgrade. Zero Off (E Controls) has zero interest in our little segment of the world. It is such a small piece of what they do, they would probably prefer to walk away form the 3 event software all together. Zero Off did not have much (if anything) to do with this change, it was all done by the Zero Off committee with is comprised of 4 veteran water-skiers that donate their time and money to make our sport better. This committee did not want to disrupt or force anyone to make a change, so they have left everything in-tact (ABC, 123 ) as it has always been. I think there were around 5 people in the nation that actually used plus in it current form, so it made sense to update that feature and make it better. I don’t think it made any sense to have a 1.6% gate overspeed, only to limit the KP value to a 1.5% increase in throttle response. So the simplest thing to do is modify the plus to fix that problem, so more people would want to use it. It is not an option to add more letters or combinations, as it is already too complex with ABC, 123, +. IWWF would never approve it and USA waterski has been clear to the committee that it is already too much. So to provide a significant enhancement that many people will like (and some will hate), the Zero Off committee made a decision to update plus mode. I attend and drive many tournaments in the West and can’t tell you the last time someone requested plus.

 

The software is free and you can rent the cable to install it, so what is there to complain about? Those that have a 2 puck system are already getting a slightly different pull than those with a single puck. If you want to try it, just switch over to trick mode on your 2 puck system and set your speed. If you like what you feel and think that it will give you more buoys, then pay to convert to a one puck system. If you don’t like and have no plans to ever use it, just stay with your current system. I guess I don’t see a whole lot of downside, unless you are one of the handful of guys that was using plus mode in it current form. Those guys have a legit axe to grind, but think that they will be pleasantly surprised once they try the new Rev S plus mode. We have had it installed on a 2015 Centurion for the last 6 months and can say it is a significant improvement. Rev S plus modes gate over speed is that same as traditional ABC, 123, however the KP value has increased allowing the boat to apply more throttle, once the accelerometer is engaged. This creates a much more constant speed and eliminates the variation that some of the heavier skiers (190+ lbs) experience.

 

Some elite pros have struggled with ZO, ever since was introduced, because it limits the amount of throttle (blocking) it can apply. Guys like @CParrish43 are penalized simply because it takes more power to pull them and the boat runs on them from center line to buoy (not good). This should fix that problem and level the playing field a bit.

 

I am personally very excited about what this means for the future of our sport and am thankful to all of the volunteers who have spent countless hours testing, programming, working with boat manufacturers to make this a reality.

 

 

[Golfguy]

Thank you Jeff.

 

[disland]

@Milford Good stuff, communication is good

[Horton]

@Milford this is a logic and truth free zone. Please take your crazy talk elsewhere so everyone can invent things to complain about.

[ALPJr]

What's the recommended 'I never used ZO' setting?

[DW]

Kudos to the folks that volunteered their time to provide a system improvement.

[MattP]

Thanks @Milford fully agree in your comments.

[mbabiash]

@Milford

For us big guys that use c1 or c2.

Would you still try c with the plus setting?

[DanE]

@mbabiash Wouldn't C3 be the first setting to try if you are at C1 or C2?

[BRY]

Wow, some of you old farts blaming this or that for ZO should know better, you were around. AWSA/USAWS/IWWF had nothing to do with the speed control issue.

Perfect Pass had and have the technology patents for mechanical (servo) throttle speed control.

E-controls/ZO had and have the technology patents for electronic throttle speed control.

As mechanical throttles went away and electronic throttles came in (from root engine manufacturers, ~2006) these two children (PP & ZO) could not work together. Huge lawsuit/counter-suit s!*# storm ensued.

Ended up PP got all the mechanical speed control market (legacy). E-controls got all the electronic speed control market (everything going forward). So no PP on electronic throttle boats, ever. No real ZO on mechanical throttle boats, ever.

AWSA/USAWS/IWWF had no standing and no leverage. PP & E-controls were fighting for the complete market, water ski market too small and could fob off.

Don't blame AWSA/USAWS/IWWF!

 

[Dirt]

I am not complaining about this. I am happy and thankful to all who made it happen.

 

I know all the history. Can you use a wooden boat in a tournament in Italy? I am merely asking why you can't use an old boat with PP.

 

Why are people getting mad? It's a discussion.

[BRY]

I recall when ZO first came out they had booths staffed with a couple engineers to explain ZO to all of us. Big line, abysmally few legitimate questions. Almost all were just losing their freaking minds on these engineers. No questions or valid points, just ranting and abuse. The continuing animus and vitriol that still exists, with no content, I can see why they have pulled back from an active presence in this community.

 

ZO gave me (and anyone else) the upgrade from Q to R for free. It was very easy. I asked at a local tournament about a cable and three people offered to let me borrow theirs. If I recall I had to pay for PP upgrades...

 

ZO had no choice to change from the dual pucks. The chip in the pucks were no longer made and the replacement did not work. That's all Garmin, not ZO. So ZO comes out with a better, more reliable hardware upgrade. Its hardware, most of which ZO buys from Garmin so they charge, its a business and an absurdly small market, no scale. Works with all ZO modules, just upgrade the software (that's free).

 

I have a 2011 ZO dual puck rev R. Will use it till Nationals then revisit it. Probably sell my dual pucks and get the single puck then. Though personally I find the different drivers feel more different than the different boats which feel more different than single/dual puck.

[thager]

BaZinga!

[MISkier]

@ALPJr, I think that the “I’ve never used ZO setting” is usually B2. Probably B2+ on Rev S.

[ozski]

We need a poll for those who upgrade that tracks how many extra buoys they get with the new version. That poll will help the rest decide on the real value of the upgrade. I get 2 slightly different feels between my 196 6.0 and the 200 6.2 but the buoy count is pretty much the same, I'm the same skier at the end of the day. I'm glad they continue to develop and innovate but until I see people running better scores with the new version the fence is a comfortable resting place.

[Horton]

@ozski You are not going to get extra balls. Some skiers are going to think the pull is better and some will think it feels worse. If you like it you may flow better and in time that will increase your average score but this is not magic bullet.

[Jody_Seal]

Cool!!

Big or small they have a setting for all!!

[BraceMaker]

@bishop8950 they were gradually disallowed in that they signed a deal where they wouldn't make a control to work on dbw engines. If say Toyota wanted to sell a new marine engine with a throttle cable and sold that engine to maybe Malibu who then put it in a boat with perfect pass and entered it in the boat test..... then I believe you'd be allowed to pull a tournament with it.

 

One would think that the natural solution to this is some form of user by user ZO parameter a dongle for instance that stores "your setting" and actually look at the true accelerometer feedback so that a CP gets his hammer on and a 15'er doesn't get tossed.

 

Would IMO make tournament easier as it could store metadata on your run.

[Dirt]

I tried the experimental plus version for 2 1/2 rides.

 

For background, I like the feel of C2 on most boats. I weigh 190 lbs. My comments about allowing older boats and perfect pass are because I believe that has turned more skiers away from the sport than anything else.

 

My first impression is that it feels like a less radical version of trick mode. I felt like I could load harder off of the buoy without getting stood up or sent directly at the next buoy off the second wake. I had more space and it felt slower.

 

I don't think lighter skiers will feel much difference, although the driver accidentally pulled a 160 lb skier with it and he said he felt it.

 

Can anyone confirm we can use this starting July 2nd?

 

Has anyone else tried it? If so, please share your experience.

[Dirt]

 

It is a little confusing because the announcement on USAWS says Rev S available July 2nd.

 

@scotchipman I did like it better but it may be honeymoon syndrome. I tried C2 +

 

[MickeyThompson]

With Rev R the ABC 123 setting have an effect when in plus mode. With Rev S do they still effect plus mode or is this a new setting?

[Horton]

yes

[The_MS]

Any one have the update cord they can send me? I will pay ship and send Good IPA back with it? Pm me

[RazorRoss3]

@MS I don’t have a cable but if you get your hands on one I’d gladly come out and help you test out the new settings... and steal some of your beer

[MattP]

@MS watch out @RazorRoss3 can drive and he can put down the beer in that order.

[RazorRoss3]

@MattP I would never drive the boat while drinking, I would one drink while driving the boat

[The_MS]

@RazorRoss3 always have a spot in the rotation for ya

[LeonL]

8.10 H. Software changes are permitted as approved by the Towboat Committee at any time during the season, except that no changes that affect skier pull will be permitted between July 1 and the conclusion of that year’s National Tournament. And sure enough, effective June 15 new rules revisions to cover the new Nautique were put in place. I'm admittedly ignorant of driving the new Nautique, and not likely to be able to overcome the ignorance any time soon. There is a matrix, supplied by Nautique that allows errors in line length settings and still not require a re ride. 10.09b. When the 2019 Nautique is used in slalom, the MicroTuners and Hydrogate automatically deploy. If the incorrect line length on the display was selected but is within the matrix supplied by Nautique, there will be no reride. If a rope length is selected for which the MicroTuners are not what the Matrix recommends, a reride may be allowed if an incomplete pass.

I don't know how one (judge or driver) gets his/her hands on said matrix. Maybe it comes with the boat if the promo person remembers. Per above Nautique has told AWSA what rules to establish, with regard to the settings.

I kinda got off topic. I started out clarifying software changes allowed and the timeframe for such. Then I got distracted by the new rules concerning the new Nautique. Sorry.