My body position has been described as "seated in a chair"... Please help

[ecno]

Hey Guys,

 

The title describes it all. I can't seem to get a good position no matter what I do, how many tips, sets, videos I watch.

 

It's incredibly frustrating because I know what I'm doing wrong and I know what to do right but I just can't get it.

 

Is there anything I should focus on on the water? And or is there anything I can do off the water to get me into a good stacked position?

[Horton]

Everybody thinks I'm being a smart-ass when I say just straighten your legs. Seriously just straighten your legs.

[UWSkier]

Smart ass or not, that's what I thought about all the time when making my transition from being a hips back squatter to being taller with hips up. After years of skiing squatted I felt like my knees were practically hyper-extended (not even close but that's what it felt like). Especially the back leg. So that piece of advice helped... and I've been slalom skiing for 32 years.

[hemlock]

I think there is some mind set too.

And what I mean by that if you do extend your legs out and get in a stacked position it will feel very scary. Because... you will be fast.

And that takes some getting used to.

But trust it, and you'll see how early you end up coming up to the next buoy. :)

[Dirt]

@ecno what kind of ski are you on? Some of the beginner skis like the big daddy are difficult to ride and turn in good body position.

[ecno]

@UWSkier @Horton thanks! Is there anything I can do to get that in my head or kinda just have to do it?

[gt2003]

@ecno, I'm in the same boat as you so I feel your pain. A lot of these guys make it look SO EASY! The 2 things in my head when I'm headed to the buoy are "finish the turn" and "hips up". It seems a lot of times I am only able to do one of them. However, keep the thought in your head going to the buoy. Pick your phrase, hips up, straighten legs etc. and just keep after it. This sport comes easier to some than others. Just don't give up!

 

[Hipsup]

Fundamentally, you have to think about falling forwards and moving with the boat - not away from it.

It helps if you start with as much weight as possible over the toe of your front foot but if you just fall back and away from the boat in a tug of war then it doesn't matter if your legs are straight or bent.

[mwetskier]

forget the ' straighten your legs ' advice -not because its not good advice but because its not why your sitting in a chair. if it was why your sitting in a chair terry winter and sacha descuns would be sitting in a chair every pass cuz they ski with very bent knees and *never* straighten their legs.

 

but what they *do* do is drive their bent knees forward by bending their ankles forward also, which brings their hips up as needed, and both are world class skiers. develop a habit of bending your ankles forward when you bend your knees and your hips will come forward and up too. as always, imo.

 

[ski6jones]

Get your hips up over your front foot. Can be done with straight or bent knees.

As @mwetskier says with bent knees you need bent ankles. I go with largely straight legs and just think stand tall, especially at the gate.

 

Concentrate on this riding to your pull out for the gates and then again after the exit gates when riding the ski to drop. You can ingrain lots of good habits about how you stand on the ski before and after the gates. Of coarse you'll want to do it in the coarse also, but you have the added distraction of pulling, turning, etc.

 

I see people all the time complain about how they can't get off the tail of the ski then watch them pull out to drop and fall back onto their back foot. Just reinforcing the habit they want to break.

[jhughes]

If I knew the answer to this I'd be running 38's.

[foxriverat]

@ecno and @gt2003 I too feel your pain. I have the same issue. Every lesson I get bend your ankles and knees get on top of ski. Every time I straighten my legs I get told dont do it. I know everything I am supposed to do but dammit it`s just harder for some people to get hips up. Maybe I will try @Horton advise for a while.

[ecno]

@ski6jones that's what's most frustrating... My pull out for the gate is really good and my pull out to drop after the exit gate is even better... I just can't seem to replicate it in the course no matter how slow I go

[Kuzskier]

To learn a new body position, first just lean on the side of the boat on one side and feel the body position thru a lean drill.

 

Here you will be on one side of the boat with out crossing the wakes and without making a turn just lean against the rope until you can find the desired body position.

 

Do this on each side of the boat until you are able to achieve the position easily

 

Its important to also learn outside of the slalom course without the influence (and distraction) of those buoys

 

[jhughes]

Regarding "lean drill" and "I can do it on the move-out": Both the move-out and a lean drill are for whatever reason not at all similar to actually crossing the wake on the off-side. I've never been able to transfer either action to the wake cross which is a down-swing movement through the wake building incredible acceleration instead of a gradual, controlled "climbing up on the boat" movement.

 

There is something about a executing a stacked skiing position in the context of swinging through the bottom of the rope path which is just a totally different dynamic. I sure as hell can't figure it out.

[Than_Bogan]

There are all sorts of mental queues that may help, but the one that works for each person seems to be pretty random!

 

One that I don't hear many other people talking about, but that I find really helpful, is to concentrate on where your upper body is. If your arms are straight and you line your upper body up with the rope, there is only one place your hips can go: right at the handle.

 

Whenever I get into a slump, I remind myself about using my upper body this way and my leverage (usually) returns.

[Horton]

@ecno Trust me. I coach a lot of skiers from 15 off to 38 off(*). There are a million ways to make this complicated or to try to do things that are idealistic but unrealistic. You may think about this any number of ways but the end goal is to get your chin as far from your feet as possible. As your body straightens out your center of mass (your hips) will move forward. You do not likely want totally locked out knees but even if you try you will never get both legs all the way straight. So if you "try" to ski with two straight legs or at tall as possible you will be likely be MUCH more stacked.

 

*When in the boat with skiers that run more balls than I do I am more likely to listen.

[hoppy]

I also struggled for this, "stand tall" worked for me as a pretty simple instruction to get over that particular hurdle. It sounds the same as Horton is saying, because in order to stand tall I pushed away with my legs equally, straightening my legs and my body out more than before to stand tall, having this taller body position then made it much easier to push hips more towards the handle, just doing that was a pretty much instant epiphany moment from an age of struggling. Once having your hips up becomes the norm (that happened very quickly on my onside) then i guess it's easier to work on more refined technique. My off side took a lot longer for it to become 2nd nature or consistent (still isn't if I'm honest). I'd be inclined to work on it in open water, so you are working on technique without the course as an unnecessary distraction.

[ScottScott]

I try to think about pushing my knees forward, and try to keep the 2 knees working together. I haven't really accomplished much yet, but that image seems to make sense.....we'll see. I feel like if the knees go forward, the hips will follow, and it will happen relative to where my shoulders already are without pulling them back (which can put me on my back foot). And with knees together, the hips will stay aligned.

[ski6jones]

I think that's why @Horton likes straight legs which is what i've been coached. If your goal is bent knees/ankles you can get lots of results dependimg on how you do it. If you go for tall/straight legs you probably won't get it but you will be more "stacked".

[JohnN]

I run into this with snow skiers. The first thing is to feel the balls of both of your feet when you're standing up. Then feel them when pulling out, and so on. If you're feeling pressure in the balls of your feet you're hips and weight will be moving forward. But the first step is being aware of the pressure on the bottom of your feet.

[mwetskier]

fwiw, for years chet raley has coached the body position of ' chin over belt buckle '. interestingly, that fails to address the skier's knees and / or ankles at all.

[Horton]

@ScottScott knees forward is idealistic but unrealistic for most skiers. If you can do it you are ahead of the game but chances are you can't really do it. Just stand up.

 

Freddie Winter, Terry Winter and Sacha ski with knees forward. If you are that talented you wouldn't be asking you for advice you'd be giving it.

 

I suggest you go find some YouTube of Chris Parrish. Tall - Simple - Efficient.

[ecno]

@Horton ... Chris parish is exactly how I want to ski, I'm usually the opposite, PANIC... And I rarely shy away from giving advice regardless of whether it's not solicited and my knowledge level haha!

 

Thanks everyone for all the help! It's really cool how everyone is so willing to help out!

[Chef23]

I agree with @Horton here. Freddie, Terry and Sacha ski with deep knees but they are supremely talented. If you look at videos of lots of very good skiers they ski more with long legs. I love watching Parrish ski. I realize he is a monster physically but I also think this makes him have to ski more precisely technically because if he gets out of sorts it is hard to get that big body back where it should be.

 

Looking at other high end skiers there are more skiers that ski stacked with longer legs behind the boat than ski with more bent knees/compressed. I looked at Nate, Parrish and Asher quickly and they all ski longer and more stacked behind the boat. Mapple was like that as well.

 

I would watch the women as well they aren't as strong as the top men and I think need to be better technically to get the results they do.

[Jordan]

Interesting problem. @ecno I think you explained your problem in your last post:

 

Chris parish is exactly how I want to ski, I'm usually the opposite, PANIC

 

FWIW, panic causes you to assume a defensive posture which almost always means, ass back, arms out. I used to ski by pulling like a freight train, and used my arms far too much. The result was a poor position and an alarming number of hard out the front crashes. The solution was to learn to get properly stacked and to learn to lean with my arms and elbows close to my vest, handle at my hips.

 

This is tricky at first as you get a lot more speed. It takes some time for your brain to accept that even though you are moving much faster, you are indeed much much safer!

 

Ultimately, you will not only become more comfortable with speed and acceleration, you will crave it.

 

I think you need to practice this free-skiing. Long swoopy turns where you patiently hook up and then lean increasingly more as you cross the wake.

 

You will get there, just stick to it!

 

 

[usaski1]

I'm always seated in a chair... works fine for me! (sorry! Had to!)

[sunvalleylaw]

I submit the following as a longer liner course skier who has been working on the same thing. I am not a coach and there are coaches here who have posted really good stuff. But I will share some of my focus. For me, straightening my legs more is necessary, and is a better cue than driving my knees. But how I do that is key. I can straighten my legs and still have most of my weight on my rear foot. So in addition to staying athletically erect in stance, I need to make sure my hips are more over my front foot. That happens for me not only by staying tall, but also by simply shifting my hips forward over that front foot. I suppose it would be ideal to be balanced and not totally focused on the front foot, but while I work on it, feeling weight planted more on the front foot helps in the correction. In practice runs, I can check in at various points in my run and feel where I feel weight on my feet, and attempt to adjust from there.

 

Also, for me, standing up and straightening my legs cannot mean locked out. If I ski locked out, and do not keep some flexibility and touch in my ankles and knees, I tend to get bent at the waist. Not a good feeling for a guy that blew a disc L4/L5 in the past. In that, it feels to me like a nice tall athletic stance that is not completely static and rigid. Chest and shoulders up over hips, hips over feet, and for me, emphasis on the front foot.

 

Getting in that stance in the glide, and any time I am coasting or gliding behind the boat before getting going helps. Now I want to make sure I am there in the top portion of the turn as I come out of the working section and approach the ball, and that I do not let my hips or center of mass fall back there.

 

Again, I am not a coach, and I am just sharing what seems to be working for me.

[Edbrazil]

That position works for jumping as you are about to hit the ramp. Looked at some movies of Jimmy Jackson, and instantly added 20' distance. Slalom: uh-uh.

[Horton]

@sunvalleylaw IF both legs are equally almost straight and booth feet are flat on the ski and your back is reasonably straight - as if you were at the top of a squat movement in the gym - that would be better position them 99% of the skiing world.

 

it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to have you back leg straight and have your weight back. Now straight front leg and bent back leg is typical and terrible.

[UWSkier]

Back leg as straight as possible and feeling like you have an overwhelming amount of weight on front foot prior to pullout, during pullout, during glide, and during turn in has helped me. That and video! Can't find it right now but I made a side-by-side shot of my glide from 3 years ago and my glide last year and my hips are probably 8" further forward in the more recent shot. Video helps a lot. It also shows you that what you feel you're doing probably isn't what you're actually doing. You'll feel WAY forward then see video...

 

This is the position I strive for but still a WIP. Few year old video of Manon. Her back leg is arrow straight here. Slight knee bend on front.

 

 

[MrJones]

I been away from skiing a bit. It gives you some perspective. We make this way more complicated than it should be.

 

Just stand up straight. It will feel weird and unstable at first, but commit to it and do it anyway. This takes true commitment. You will have to want to stand up more than you want to turn, run the pass, or anything else. Those things are secondary if you want to truly want to make a change. Good luck.

[walleye]

@ecno Are you in double Hi wraps? I have been noticing thru the years people (mainly kids )learning on double hi-wraps have a greater tendency to be squat skiers. I feel rear toe gives more flexibility to get your hips ups - especially kids.

[chris55]

You can watch Brooke Baldwin at the Master and you will see straight legs ......running 38off !!!!! just like that.... Horton is right. Just stand tall with your legs almost straight, scarry but it works.

[DaveD]

Try slowing the boat down and skiing with most of your weight on your front foot. When you get it right you won't feel like your sinking.

[ecno]

@DaveD always used an RTP... Currently using a reflex front and a fitted ho rtp

[sunvalleylaw]

Free-skied on bouncy water yesterday, and used the time to practice coming into each turn with the rear leg tall, kinda whip drill style to really feel the tall position. Really seemed to help. And if I started the turn that way, it sure seemed like I finished/re-connected to the handle better. I am a believer. @ecno , how is it going with you?