MENS 8 SPEED DILEMMA

[OldGuysRule]

Now that Nationals are over, I'm trying to come to terms with the new rule from USA Water Ski concerning Mens 8 speed. If I remember correctly at my advanced age, the maximum speed for Mens 8 will now go up to 32 miles per hour in order to be in agreement with the IWWF. I've been skiing 30 mph for a couple of years and now trying to decide whether to go 32 or stay at 30 and suffer a six buoy penalty. Any other Mens 8 skiers out there having this same dilemma?

[Andre]

Disclaimer: I' m men5.

I think 32 is too fast for men 8.

30 should be plenty fast. Falls are harder,more chance of injuries and it s more fun to shorten the line then to speed up.

 

My 2 Canadian cents..

[dvskier]

I'm in M8 and staying at 30.4 mph. No desire to ski 32.3 mph, it wouldn't be useful to me. They'll probably up the speed to 34 next year anyway to "thin the herd".

[LeonL]

You guys who have been in M8 for a couple of years or more have my sympathy. This year (2018) was my first year in M8 and knowing I would have to go back to 32, I just stayed there. If you think about it it was a strange setup anyway. M7 was the only Mens age division in AWSA to have a speed just for that one division. In other words, 34 M3-M6, 32 for M7 and then 30 for M8-M10. Ok, M11 is by itself also, but....

Personally, I could never get a handle on 30. I guess I just lack the finer skills required for that speed. And yes, you'd better have some handle control to run 35 off at 30!

[Chef23]

I don't recall but does zero based scoring apply at Regionals and Nationals? If it does apply just stay at 30 mph there is no real penalty unless you could run 32 off for example at 30 mph and 32 mph.

 

I have been skiing 30 mph this year so far on a Radar Katana and it has been a lot of fun. I ran 32 off the other day for the first time and it was definitely not as hard on my body. Unfortunately I am 52 so I have a ways to go before I can be competitive in M8.

[rfa]

@Chef23 , let me fix the last sentence in your post for you..."fortunately, I am only 52..."

[teammalibu]

My wife went from 34 to 32 last year and now back to 34 this year wtf sense does that make!

[lpskier]

I hear the jumpers like the increased speed.

 

From what I hear, most current 30 mph M8 slalom skiers don’t want to go back up and a lot of the new crop of M8 skiers are glad not to go down. I only have a few years left at 34 and I know I’m already dreading 32.

[dvskier]

How'd you like to ski 36? Same thing as M8 going to 32.

[LeonL]

@lpskier my advice to some local skiers is "don't do it"! Don't slow down. I know age gets to all of us, but I can pin point my decline to when I slowed down. Oh yeah for the first few months I was knocking down 35 and getting a few ar 38, then winter arrived. By next spring I was back to mid 35 same place I was at 34. I have tried a few forays back at 34 and could get back into with some time. Just stay at 34, do a few set at 32 before tournaments to get the feel and go back to 34 on Monday.

[Drew_Wright_OBXtoFl]

The great thing about today's boats and speed control is you can practice at any speed. I often just take some of the edge off and ski 33.6 or 33.8 Workin my way up to 34 mostly at 28 off and then drop it back to something in the middle for a 32 and 35 off attempt . But you do have to have a newer speed contric to do this but even the 2009 zero has this. The new Nautique actually gives you the time .33.6 is close to a perfect pass in tolerance pass before zero off

[lpskier]

@dvskier I can still ski -28 and -32 at 36.

[dbutcher]

In five years this controversy will be all over and done with. Each M8 individual is different because we age individually (differently).

[dvskier]

@lpskier I have no doubt you can probably run 38 @ 36 mph but some of us old guys are just getting into course and tournament skiing. I didn’t start tournaments until last year. I was shocked to find that max speed is now 32. I’ll continue to ski tournaments but unsure if I’ll ever get to the level you’re at though.

Personally disappointed with the decision to increase the speed. I’ll get over it. It does make me apprehensive on what’s coming when I move to M9 though.

[lcarnes]

After I wrote this piece I came across this thread. We are talking about the same dilemma. It strikes me as another nail in the coffin for the sport of we keep making it harder for people to compete. In business, you raise prices when the demand is high. When demand falls, you find out what it takes to attract customers. Seems like skiing is "raising the prices" when demand is low.

 

This is a damn hard sport. For people who start the sport young, going down in speed over the years is not a big deal. For someone like me who started in my mid-forties, climbing the mountain to my top speed was almost a deal killer. I wonder how many potential skiers we have lost?

[lpskier]

Bear in mind that the speed change was to bring us in line with the international speeds for the same age groups. No one is trying to make it harder, they are trying to make it consistent. And no one is forcing you to go 32. With ZBS, you can continue to ski 30 if you prefer.

 

@dvskier sadly no, I can’t run -38 at 36. Or 34 for that matter. But I’m still trying!

[dvskier]

What's the speed for M9 in IWWF? Also I thought I joined the AWSA?

[thager]

What's AWSA? We are under a new neutral all inclusive BS water sports moniker I think??

[Xpropman]

The reason to go to 32 mph is to align with world rules. OK. World rules say everyone over 65 goes 32 mph. So men’s 7-8-9-10 should all go 32 mph. I went to the rules committee and showed that only 1 of the top 18 M-8 skiers wanted to go 32 mph. But they still shoved it down are throats. World rules doesn’t have ZBS . Just wait the rules committee will screw this up some more.

[wart]

 

Xpropman notes that 1 out of 18 wants to go 32mph. (Just a thought - isn’t the customer always right?)

 

The reason to go 32mph is to align with the World. But how many in AWSA, at that age, ski in the World, as opposed only the USA?

Maybe the 1 above?

 

Help me out here, why was the speed increased?

 

Anyway, I think this takes us to what Icarnes wrote... that is pushing skiers away.

Oh, and click Icarnes “this piece.” Very well written for both the skier and those skiing with.

 

On the hopeful side of “those skiing with”...

Before I skied in tournaments, when I was M2 age, and learning the course, I skied at 34mph, and got endless grief, even when I would say M3 will be soon enough and I’ll be ready.

Now I’m skiing 32mph way before I get to the age group, and no one has said anything other than, did you just make that pass!? So, there’s some “those skiing with” progress.

[Chef23]

If you don’t compete in World events just skie ZBS and stay at 30. No downside there. I think it makes sense to be in line with the rest of the world and have ZBS for those that don’t want to ski at 32.

[Xpropman]

Chef23

So why didn’t the rules committee change Men 9-10-11 to 32 mph? That would align us with world rules.

[dvskier]

@Xpropman Standby for upcoming 2019 rules, they'll raise it to 32 for all males over 65.

[Edbrazil]

Some strange results from the alignment with the World Rules. I know a top M5 jumper who will have to go back into M4 next year, for one year, and then back to M5.

[dbutcher]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the rules committee doesn't make AWSA rules. The AWSA national board (our elected representatives) does. The rules committee makes rule recommendations to the board. The board sometimes passes them, sometimes not. This M8 speed change rule has been in the works for over two years. The original request for it came from some M7/8 skiers who didn't want to slow down. There were hundreds of emails exchanged amongst M8 skiers, rules committee members, and board members. I am a last year M8 slalom skier who personally opposes the rule change, and I'm staying at 30. I have no interest in IWWF. However, a lot of people put a lot of thought, time, and effort into it before it was enacted. Rule changes always make some people happy and some not. Quality of life remains pretty much unchanged.

[Drago]

ZBS is great

[eleeski]

@lcarnes blog article was very relevant. Do what you will enjoy most! Wear socks with your sandals? With the ZBS rule, you can (ski your desired speed).

 

I shortened below my max the last couple years. I will probably continue to do so in class C tournaments - because it's more fun! But I do have IWWF aspirations (this might get me another panda). So I'm spending some time at the max speed. It's a reasonable mix that is safe, fun yet pushes me.

 

I'm not M8 yet (but the Xrays of my arthritic skeleton might resemble M8). But having the alignment with IWWF rules AND the lower speed option through AWSA ZBS scoring is as close to the best of both worlds as we can get.

 

There are similar applications for other divisions as well which solve real IWWF problems that I've seen. This was carefully crafted for the maximum benefit of the diverse goals of the skiers.

 

Eric

[Ed_Johnson]

I thought ZBS scoring only applied to Class C. Would you not have to ski at the required division speed at Regionals and Nationals to score ???

 

[eleeski]

I'm pretty sure my scoring and placement at Regionals this year reflected my ZBS score (74.5 buoys = 2.5 at 22off 34mph after scoring 6 at 22off 32mph). I did not get an IWWF score (did not complete a 34mph pass).

 

So it appears ZBS works at Regionals for an underspeed for rankings list and placement but not for IWWF scores. Sounds reasonable. But the better skiers did ski 34 and got those 6 buoys more than me for the same line length. I'm OK with that.

 

Eric

[gsm_peter]

My 2 cents.

I still struggle to run 34 so this is more like a question.

For me the fun starts at 31mph or 32.

30 is more heavy on my body.

 

Thoughts?

 

[LeonL]

@gsm_peter 30 sucks and 32 only slightly less. @Ed_Johnson ZBS works everywhere. (In the USA anyway) As @eleeski stated, your scores can't go on world ranking list unless you ski your division max. You don't have to ski max for your division. You just get what you get. You can ski over speed and get full credit in class C. You can ski over speed in E, L but you only get credit as if you were skiing the division max speed.

[Jody_Seal]

now here is the ideology as it it exists down under and maybe everywhere with the international age groups.

stepping down an age division, well if you are in men 7 0r 8 over 65 at least what i have observed in the tournaments i have entered and been apart in a skier can step down to any of lower age groups and ski them. so dont want to ski 32 and want to ski 34 then drop down to either over 35 over 45 or over 55.

 

does kinda suck for those that have become accustom to skiing 30 mph or 49 K but that will cycle out in 4 years. maybe for that first four years the skiers that want to ski 30 mph should get the same score as those that maintain 32 MPH for that division only but i guess that may be to simple!!

[klindy]

@Jody_Seal is right with the one major difference between AWSA and IWWF age group rules. All the age groups are 35+, 45+, 55+, etc which means you can ski in a "younger" group if you like the speed/ramp height options better.

 

The change to M8 actually makes the max speed the same as M7. Combined, M7 & M8 align with the 65+ age group at IWWF. My question is why does AWSA always seem to make changes to align with IWWF? The US is by far the largest contingent in that group and, perhaps, we could have/should have lobbied for changes at IWWF instead - or some agreeable combination.

 

[Jody_Seal]

@klindy like lobby to eliminate the six flip rule? agreed that it is time to flex a little muscle!

[Ed_Johnson]

@LeonL ... So in M-8 now, the max speed is 32 mph. You say you can use ZBS at Regionals and Nationals. My question is if you have 2 skiers, one runs 3@35 32mph and the other runs 3@35 30mph, you are saying their score is the same ???

Shouldn't the 30mph skier be down graded ???

I would think the score for the 30mph skier would under ZBS be 3@32 OFF !!!

 

 

 

[Chef23]

@gsm_peter if 30 feels heavy and you want to ski 30 get a bigger ski. I have been skiing 30 this year at 200 pounds on a 67” Radar Katana and it doesn’t feel heavy at all. Ii have run the course from 22 off to 32 off. f I was trying to ski my 66” Goode Mid at 30 it would feel very heavy.

[dbutcher]

@Ed_Johnson Scores are not the same. 32 mph skier wins by six buoys - AWSA rule 10.06 G. Even if the 30 mph skier ran 3 @ 38, AWSA rule 10.13 C. 1. and 2. would make the 32 mph skier the winner.

[Ed_Johnson]

@dbutcher ... Thanks, thats what I thought. Thanks again for clarifying that !!!

 

[LeonL]

@ed_johnson and @dbutcher the key rule in this 10.06(b) 1 & 2. You will note that in (1) the skier is allowed to ski above max but will be scored "as though they were being run at his division maximum speed". This is what would apply to nationals, regionals or any ELR. The next rule (2) is specific to class C and states "the skier will receive credit for the buoys run at the higher speed". Yes, in @ed_johnson 's example the score IS the same because he referred to Nationals, or any situation other than class C. @dbutcher you fail to take into account 10.06.

10.13 C 1 & 2 seem to be contradictory to me.

[Drago]

@Ed_Johnson

3@35@30=78 buoys

3@35@32=84 buoys

Max speed is 32 in m8 "now"

[Drago]

.

[Drago]

..

[Drago]

@Ed_Johnson

3@35@30=78 buoys

3@35@32=84 buoys

[dbutcher]

@LeonL I think you forgot that M8 max speed is now 32. The 32mph skier was not overspeeding. 10.06 B. 1. and 2. don't apply. 10.13 C. does apply. You don't get to 10.13 C. 1. or 2. 10.13 C. 1. would apply if the 30mph skier ran 3 @ 38. 10.13 C.2. would not be involved. I may be missing something or may be confused, but that's how I see it. I think the 3 @ 35 at 30mph score would be 81, and 3 @ 35 at 32mph would be 87.

 

What is contradictory about 10.13 C. 1. and 2.?

[LeonL]

No, I didn't forget. I was just speaking of what was. I may have misunderstood the context, and assumed we were referring to scores already acquired. My error.

Your example of scoring is correct.

Maybe not contradictory but surely conflicting. Let me try to paraphrase. In (1) to have the same score at different speed requires different line lengths. In (2) it says the winner shall be the skier at the shortest rope length. This renders (1) moot in my understanding.

[klindy]

@dvskier what exactly do you disagree with in my post above?

[lpskier]

@klindy It’s been downhill ever since we adopted metric dimensions for the slalom course. ;-)

[Zman]

With all this banter about M8 speed, maybe we should change the thread, "you might be M6..." to M8. Surely, there would be some even more funny stuff for M8.