Distance From Center - Episode 18 (Moomba Masters Men’s Slalom Discrepancy)

[Horton]

https://distancefromcenter.com/

[keithh2oskier]

Interesting DFC. Just curious but I know you and Trent talk a lot about using this as a training exercise. Does anyone know if this video was taken from an actual judging spot? Or if not is there video available from a judging spot for review? I know it can change from site to site but my general experience back when I skied tournaments (10 years ago) was that you have a shore judges outside of 1 ball on each side of the course to accurately call the entrance gates and a boat judge. The downside to this is someone at the far end of the course will have a really hard time making a tight call (such as this) at the other end of the lake.

 

Having a judge outside of 2 ball (where the video is taken) seems to be a very bad spot to generally judge the course and therefore seems difficult to "pick" on the judges for making a bad call if they never saw this perspective. I am not standing up for Nate in this scenario but just think that for a learning experience to be had, it needs to be as accurate as possible. Maybe this goes into is there a better way to judge a tournament with say a boat judge and a camera's lined down the 1,3,5 and 2,4,6 buoy line and broadcasted to a monitor on shore. Basically the boat camera video but for the turn buoys.

[BlueSki]

@Horton, any plans for making the audio a regular podcast? I know you gave it some thought with the last one.

[Horton]

yes. Tonight or tomorrow morning the audio version will be available. I have not invested a ton of time and figure out how to get into iTunes but I'm pretty sure I'm missing just one step somewhere in the process. I am currently spending more time walking on the igtv version. Both of the video versions take a number of hours to encode.

[BlueSki]

Cool, DFC would be great for the commute. Thanks for working on it.

[Kelvin]

Its crazy that IWWF requires so much technology to record events at this level including the use of video to make sure we get the right call. Its frustrating that the judges on site chose not to utilize the available technology to get it right.

[JAS]

I have always suggested to parents and players that unless they were willing to make a public declaration, that if they were in officials exact position, and they would have made a contrary call, they shouldn’t make a declaration that an officials call was in error.

 

If time has come in our sport for systematic video review then let it be. Slow motion, freeze frame etc. changes everything (Football, baseball, basketball). Until then the best we can do is pick judges wisely and trust that they will make calls on what they see.

 

I have to wonder if Nate didn’t question whether he made that ball and threw runoff with Thomas by falling at one ball ?

[bishop8950]

Question: if a skier knows they got a score that is wrong, do our rules allow them to protest their score down?

 

There are a few good discusssion points related to Episode 18, but one is what does an athlete do if they KNOW the score is wrong in their favor? If a skier goes to the judges and confirms they believe their score is higher than they deserve, can the judges make that change within our rules? Maybe some one knows but I will look when I get a chance. This came up a few years ago at Nationals and when I looked into it I wasn’t convinced. I suppose the review request process for a call could be the same if you think you didn’t get the call you deserved or if you got more than you deserved?

 

I am sure there are other examples, but Pro Tennis comes to mind. We love it when a player acknowledges a call not in their favor. We could do that here as well.

 

I am sure most people agree that if you aren’t sure, you leave it to the judges. But if you are sure, then what?

[Horton]

I am at this moment re-encoding the show with the following text at the end.

 

After this show was recorded & published I was informed that there was no official video to be reviewed. If I had this information sooner my comments would have been different.

 

Facts are important.

 

John Horton

[BraceMaker]

Is official recorded video expected?

[Horton]

IGTV version is now live on the Instagram page

[JackQ]

A great example of good sportsmanship was years ago at the Nationals in I believe Mens III, Ed Hickey had the top score and Gordon Rathburn went out and tied Ed. Gordon, came back and said the judges score was incorrect, and that he did not run the score given and asked for it to be corrected. The score was not changed, then Gordon refused to take the run off for 1st place, how many would have done so and given up a opportunity to take 1st place at the Nationals?

 

I like to think many would, but I have experienced incidences at Regionals and Nationals where a skier went inside more than one buoy, kept skiing and "celebrated" running the pass they never actually ran. In one case a number of peers confronted the offending skier in a very direct manner, that their Cheating was seen by all, and in no uncertainty terms that severe ramifications would result if this happened again

 

I believe with one exception, I have always known what I have really ran. The only exception was I was very late at 3@39 and was unsure if I made the 1/4 buoy or significantly displaced/ran over the buoy. I know I hit it, but unsure of the severity.

 

One radical idea to simplify and reduce judging requirements for C tournaments is to have skiers score themselves (like golf). The control to keep everyone honest would be: if another skier "protests" the score, a video review would occur and if the skiers score was not confirmed, they score would be given as Zero. This would require at least a boat video that could be review after the round was completed.

[75Tique]

deleted

 

 

 

[Horton]

Because it is plausible that he didn't know I think we should give Nate a pass on the sportsmanship issue. My point is we are speculating that he knew he scored 1 but we really do not know what he knew in that moment*. I think this might make a good separate topic.

 

* I know a number of elite guys totally disagree with me. My opinion is my opinion.

 

 

[bishop8950]

@horton I agree, we should give Nate a pass on whether he “knew”. But it was specifically raised in Episode 18 so why a separate topic?

 

I think the key question is what if anything are we going to do following the issue at Moomba? Complaining and speculating won’t help. What if anything should/will change? How do we do that?

 

One thing that could be reviewed is making it possible for an athelete to protest their score down. It could be a simple rule change, but needs some thought and a clear proposal needs made to the rules committees.

 

Perhaps Other rule changes could be proposed (but I have no suggestions here)

 

Trent mentioned where addition training or reviews could be employed.

 

We could add more technology (not sure that’s the answer, yet)

 

We could change the buoys (ya right)

 

Just saying what if anything could we or should we do?

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

Click here to download or stream audio 

 

[Horton]

@bishop8950 The consensus I get from Pro Skiers is that official video should be mandatory at this level of event. Without official video I do not believe that even Nate could change his score.

 

After video review I am sure Nate's score was 1 but I am super happy I did not have judge is live because I might have missed it.

 

The point is that at an event this big getting is right is critical. In this case it was clearly hard to if you were not anticipating it.

 

To me I think it is another question if it is ethical to "Bishop the Ball" or not.

(for you @matthewbrown )

[bishop8950]

@Horton, I totally agree, there should be video review available at events like Moomba. This said, I don't know what the event officials would say as to why there wasn't.

 

There are so many skiers that deserve a name sake to running over a buoy before me. If "Bishop the Ball" sticks I will find an appropriate way to get you back!

[JackQ]

I agree that Nate should get a pass on sportsmanship, we don’t know what he knew at the time. I won’t speculate, but I doubt there are many times an elite skier doesn’t know what they really scored, particularly when you are not hitting the buoy on the outside.

 

From my experience and being a senior judge, your score will not be changed even if you state you did make it. I also am surprised that a tournament of the stature of Moomba doesn’t even have boat video.

[APB]

So if there’s no video then a record can’t be broken. Correct? There are “Moomba” records... but back to what I’ve said in the past.... the slalom portion of Moomba seems to be a ski show. Or am I missing something?

[Kelvin]

There was a TV crew in the boat with video. An Aussie TV station does a highlight Moomba show in April. Would be nice if we could get a look at it in the rest of the world. Not sure why, but my guess is that video was not considered official.

 

Interesting side note: For the past few years, my webcast video of the Malibu Open has been considered official video and it has been used to review calls.

[rockdog]

Correct @kelvin. We get an hour of highlights next month I think on one of the crap Fox channels that nobody watches (Aurora?). All boat video.

[rockdog]

Further, everyone keeps asking why no official video. It’s not a record capable course so why would there be video? Or am I missing something here?

[Horton]

@rockdog Class L event / Elite Points / Pro Event / one of top 3 events of year

 

 

 

[bishop8950]

@rockdog the reason to have video is to be able to review calls, exactly has happened with Nate. The officials could have agreed they would run the event without video and calls are made in real time only. Sounds like this was the case. But had there been review they would have the opportunity to review calls, regardless of the type of sanction, course qualification or anything like that.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

.

 

[Horton]

@bishop8950 maybe we should call it "Bruce-ing the Ball"

[rockdog]

I agree for sure there should be video for such a big event and the reasons for doing so, I’m just trying to think of what the organisers reasons would be as to why they don’t bother. I mean all these near misses etc aren’t new to the event, yet still nothing changes. ?‍♂️

[Bruce_Butterfield]

.

[DUSkier]

I am pretty sure the reason Video is not used at Moomba is because of time restraints i.e. if the river is due to open at 5pm it is open at 5pm! Video Review adds to the pressure of this time restraint as we saw a few years ago with the top seed skiing about an hour? after other skiers. We also saw how quickly conditions can change on the Yarra!

I am also aware that Video transmission is extremely difficult at the site due to well, being in the middle of a city!!

Also best to read:

Moomba Rules

Pay particular attention to MM14.11

 

[Horton]

@DUSkier Interesting. Even though it is in writing I'm not sure it is the right thing

 

[Jetsetr]

That’s kinda messed up if there is $$$$ involved for pro skiers...no idea what the difference is $$ wise between 1-5 but it’s a business for these pro skiers...

[Horton]

The point of this snip is video review is allowed if there is video. No video is a choice. I can not speak for the reasons the choice was made at Moomba this year. Maybe it was a really good reason (or not).

 

 

[skihacker]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong......didn't they pull Nate's gates some years back.......after video review?

[DUSkier]

@skihacker Yes they did,, re read my previous post, at one stage there was so many gate reviews they ran out of time to complete the ,,, I think from memory a semi final???? Was 2? skiers that had to ski after about an hours break.

Much easier to manage time frames without any reviews, this is I think why they went to live scoring

[disland]

This blown call is nothing compared to the one in the NFC championship game. Its the nature of sport

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrrICekz9oc

[Drago]

A thought: in World Cup ski racing, when an athlete hooks or straddles a gate and continues on, they are fined (something like 1,000 Swiss francs). This is only a World Cup rule, they got tired of replays and protests wrecking the show.

Another thought:when will the pro skiers get together and agree to the rules they want to help the show/for the good of the game? The procedure for gates and buoy calls is way too involved and slow for a live show. It's totally understandable that Moomba nixed the video judging.

[bishop8950]

@drago over the past 15 yrs I have heard of a few pro skier discussions to do exactly that: define rules they want for their events. For that to happen a) they have to follow through and b) it would be interesting how the sponsors/officials/LOCs respond. Possible outcomes include anything from “great ideas, let’s do it” to “go host your own events then”.

[Drago]

I'm not saying they all have to wear matching tucked in polo shirts, but more than a few essentially solve problems like this together. Rules to help the show . Needs to be more than two guys (or girls), but more like the top 20 coming to an agreement. I'm certain "less judges, no cameras" would be ok for an organizer