New boat prices far exceeding inflation rate

[Drago]

@jjackkrash I wasn’t baiting you, was hoping you would look at your post and explain your point. Are you saying the CP wasn’t approved by AWSA and forced out of business?

[skierjp]

Remember you cannot compare the price or inflation to the Ski Nautique. This is a brand new model and technology to which there is nothing to compare it too. You should probably compare the 200 to the Club 200.

Mark did the wrong price comparison ( inflation) when he used Porsche 911. I would put the Ski Nautique in the group of maybe a GT3 not a regular 911 and that is a huge price difference.

In my car knowledge a Corvette Stingray to a ZR1. Almost a 80k difference.

How many people have heard the story from a parent that there first house cost way less then the car or truck you just bought. Lol

[markn]

Respectfully Jim, let's use the Porsche GT-3 as the example as you suggested. In 2004, the 996 GT-3 was $99,000. In 2019 dollars, that is $133,929. The 2019 GT-3, which is faster, has more tech, bigger engine, tons more "goodies" and research is $143,000. That is a difference of $10,000. I would grant Porsche an additional $10K difference for the SIGNIFICANT performance enhancements over 15 years! (I understand Porsche is selling more cars and SUV's). In the analysis, the analogy must be consistent....2004 ZR-1(do not think it was a ZR-1 back then) to 2019 ZR-1 or 2004 GT-3 to 2019 GT-3 or 2004 top of the line "Limited Nautique" to 2019 top of the line Ski Nautique. (Porsche has had 4 different model upgrades from 2004 to 2019): 996, 997, 991 and now the all new 992. Just trying to keep the thread lively!!

[EFW]

@Ilivetoski - Hey you could get banned for a comment like that. We're not looking for any independent thinkers here. Please lets stick to conformity - please.

[jjackkrash]

@Drago, I was trying to point out that the Carbon Pro was a good basic and relatively inexpensive boat that was AWSA approved that just didn't make it for what ever reason. In other words, stringent certification requires and a lack of certification cannot be blamed for its failure because it was, in fact, certified. (Stringent certification requirements are being blamed for the high price of tow boats and I just don't think these requirements are a big factor in tow-boat prices).

[Drago]

Ah, 10-4 @jjackkrash

I recall another thread about a bare-bones boat. Nearly all chimed in with,”...well, it needs this,and this, and you can’t build it without this...”. Didn’t take long for the cost to add up

[Swerve200]

The economies of scale to manufacture 3-event specific towboats have long passed. I'd be surprised if more than 500 3-event units are sold per year by the three majors combined. It's just another "sign-of-the-times" for continued decline of a great sport and activity.

[skierjp]

2004 was a ZO6 the ZR1 was 2009 to 2013. HUGE DIFFERENCE between ZO6 and ZR1. The Ski Nautique is not a model upgrade. This boat is completely different. This would be like comparing the 200 and the Ski Nautique to a Camaro and Corvette.

[Not_The_Pug]

@drago that is true, on a private lake a bare bones tug works great, but the average buyer wants accessories. I know where there is a bare bones M/C for $59k, but they are getting no lookers. With no options it really narrows your selling opportunities. I have been on the promo team since 2012. It was harder to sell my bare bones boats (first few boats) vs the ones with all the options. Most I talked to asked how much to add this or that. I just started ordering them with all the options.

 

Also price out a Porsche sometimes. A bare bones looks pretty good. I looked at a Macan for my wife. Base was like $56k, but once I started putting all the options she wanted it was $90k. She ended up picking an Audi because it had way more options. A per driving vehicle (which I liked, bare bones) vs what she wanted was luxury options.

[RINLE]

We have had years of quantitative easing and monetary policy that has kept the rates of financing charged to banks at historic lows, with our government pushing banks to lend, but not on mortgages. Easy money and terms help prices grow. Now the FED is talking about reducing rates again.

 

I work in higher ed -- Same thing -- every-time the government raises loan limits and drops interest rates, we all respond by increasing our tuition costs.

 

Money lent for cars, truck, RVs, boats is a bubble similar to the housing bubble, but it should not crash the economy if it pops like housing did.

[Wish]

I find it hard to believe that this sport is not accessible. It's to what level of accessibility you can afford. Fresh-ish out of college I bought an 87 Supra ts6m used for $10,000. I have the original bill of sale @$22,000..no that's not a misprint. Kept it for 11 years and sold it for $7500. Then purchased '97 196 Masters Edition and still have it. New boats are stupid costly. But that's not the barrier. Being told you must own the latest or close to it to be competitive is. I have plenty of success stories both in tournaments and in practice. Let the boat builders build what they think is marketable. They are going to anyway. I'm glad they do. Gives me better choices in the used market. Boats will trickle down the used market path and all you have to do is pick your price point over pride and misconceptions that you need the BEST and latest boat. For example (if the wood is good) THIS boat will get you on the water with great wakes especially longer lines and slower speeds. Then when the time comes...just upgrade. Just about anyone could afford this. #proudskieronabudget.

 

http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Boat_3Event&postid=51416

[Gar]

Used to hope I got one of those in a tournament back in that era!

[markn]

Sorry to wax on about the car/boat analogy, but it is fun and I am semi-retired with plenty of time!! I certainly accept the 2019 Ski Nautique is not an upgrade, but a completely different boat. The basis of your position is predicated on the fact the boat is all new. The 1990 Nautique was an all new boat from the 1989 model. Not much wetted surface difference between the 1990-2001 model years, but in 2002, out came another all new boat, then 2010 the all new 200, then again in 2019 the all new boat. None of the above were "upgrades", but all new boats. They were all the flag ship, top of the line ski boat manufactured by CC at the time....all "corvettes". Bottom line, new boats are crazy expensive!

[swc5150]

The threat the big 3 may encounter is finding a new block of customers, as the historical buyers tap out. I think there's a good chance that a sizable amount of new boat buyers, over a 3-5 year period, are the same people.

[Golfguy]

Ok, so next tournament we have we can use a 1989 Brendella.

 

[skierjp]

@Golfguy And if you use a Brendella you won’t have any entries. Lol

[Golfguy]

The is the up side. I like were you are going with this. I just love chasing buoys.

 

[Wish]

@Golfguy huh?

[Ilivetoski]

Inflation is the baseline to measure all price increases... just because your price increase is absolutely ludicrous, doesn’t mean it is measured against another item.

[packski]

I know it's not comparable but all center console boat prices were and still outrageous. Carolina Skiff came in and took a big chunk of that market with much cheaper boats. They are cheaper but they get the job done. They are everywhere. Ironically, Correct Craft owns Parker Boats which offers a reasonably priced center console in the 18-25 foot lengths. I don't see why a basic bubble back could'nt be built and sold for half the cost of current tow boats.

[Justin_C]

I don't really see that much of a difference between the brand new boats with ZO and the older (late 90's/early 00's) with an upgrades stargazer Zbox system. Read reviews on bubble butt nautiques or diamond hull responses and I think you'll discover most people love the wakes and say they compare very closely to that of new boats. Add the PP Zbox in and isn't it a close enough set up for 95% of people to train on? After all, how many people are skiing 41 and getting paid to do this. Yes, it's an obsession for most (myself included) but it boils down to a hobby.

[RAWSki]

@packski the concept of building a basic ski boat has been floated and even done in form of the CP and just didn't work. (Long before the Carbon Pro there were Malibu Sportsers and MC sport stars etc. ---- using older hulls and basic finishes. They didn't do great either). I am glad Centurion gave it a shot. Of course it was conceived and designed when the company was private and before wake surf craft went crazy. I feel fortunate to have a CP and it has all the features we need. (Great wake, plenty of power, heated seats and ZO) It's our ski tug pure and simple.

 

Recall when the CP came out everyone ripped it for shaving costs by not having carpet...... Not much carpet in any ski boats these days?

 

There are 4 great boats available today and their prices are competitive with each other. All Semi custom made in America - I think that's the most we can ask.

[bananaron]

@Wish Totally agree with you.Plenty of older boats that will work fine for most skiers.Older MC and nautiques available all over.I buy older boats 2001-2008 and really enjoy them.In fact I am looking at a 99 boat that might just stay on my lift for awhile.

[Wish]

Perspective on products vs inflation. We were at Lowes today and for grins checked out refrigerators. We don't need one thank goodness cause the prices are way outa line for something just to keep food cold. $4000 plus for top of the line name brands. Thats insane. But obviously they sell the crap out of them. Cash is no longer King. Monthly payments and debt are. No diff then boats and we all need a fridge. Crazy.

[Hk196]

In 1996 I bought my first Ski Nautique. Actually I own a Ski Nautique 200. These skiboats always were the cheapest boats in the Correct Craft line. Wakeboardboats were bigger and more expensive. But now? The Ski 200 with tower is in the range of the 210 with tower standard and the new Ski Nautique w/o tower costs the same as the GS 20 with tower and ballast. I do not understand how they calculate...

[robmollysilverlake]

Guess you can ski behind this boat! "Can Be Ran As a Wake Boat, Surf Boat or Ski Boat" hadn't seen one over $300k before!! Pavati

[ToddF]

ski boats are like the sausage dog at a mlb game,

if they know enough people will pay

10-12 bucks for a sausage dog they will sell it for 10-12 bucks.

 

[Rpc29]

@ToddF the Falcons tried the opposite with their concessions and ended up making more money while also selling more tickets.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22212592/atlanta-falcons-drop-prices-make-more-money-mercedes-benz-stadium-concessions

[Wish]

It's possible there's just really wealthy folks that pay cash and the manufacturers know it.

 

A Super Air Nautique GS22 finding its home aboard the 116m yacht Ulysses.

 

[Horton]

If there was a market for 75" wide, carbureted 5.7 L, iron block, zero electronic, polyester resin hull boats this thread would make sense. The fact is modern boats are bigger and full of much more expensive components then they were 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

 

What I'm really objecting to is the idea that boats could follow the rate of inflation. If there was a market for exact same boat specs as 15 years ago it would probably not too cost much more than it did 15 years ago plus rate of inflation.

 

Progress and the market has driven the manufacturers to utilize better materials and better components to be competitive with each other. Suggesting that the manufacturers are gouging the public is frankly ignorant and stupid. The inboard market is the lowest margin part of all three boat companies and we're lucky they don't just walk away from the market segment.

 

The used boat market is healthy so instead of complaining about the price of new boats go find the best used boat you can afford and go ski.

[jjackkrash]

My club consists of recreational skiers. The new boats are nice, for sure, but truth be told, you don't have to have a new boat to enjoy the sport on a recreational level. My ski buddy runs into '32 off and is buying a '92 Prostar in great shape with 900 hours this week for around $6500. The two best skiers in our club run into '38 off and also own 90s' pre-efi boats that they have kept in excellent shape (a prostar and response lx I think) (one of them bought the prostar new and has kept it to this day and it is spotless). There's around 3 bubble-back Nautique's that I can think of and a pair of 206s that show up now and again and a sweet early 90s Supra. I have a newish 200, but we all take turns on each other's boats and I like skiing behind and driving all of them.

[jjackkrash]

And Horton's post just above is spot on. The reality is the alternative to the current state of this market segment is probably the disappearance of the segment altogether. I am hoping that doesn't happen.

[6balls]

Agree @horton. New cars are pricey, too...that's why I buy used ones...very nice used ones with tons of power and keep 'em a long time. Used boats and other rec equipment are easier cuz there's always that person that bought one with intentions of use and didn't really use it...low hours and perfect. Oh, hey...that's a promo boat...low hours and perfect!

[ScottScott]

The market certainly spoke when it came to the Centurion. People would rather spend similar money on a used "nicer" 200 or Prostar, than a new bare bones boat.

[bananaron]

@ScottScott You are spot on about people buying the used big name boat.The GEKKO boat is a case in point fantastic boat for a lot less money however people would rather spend that money on one of the big 3 boat builders.@Horton I am not sure they are using better materials or that these new expensive boats are built better.Look at some of the older MC and nautique boats that are still around and working well.Heck I don't think that these new boats cars and everything else built today will last as long as the older items.For sure when something goes wrong its very expensive to repair and with all of the computer junk on them more it doesn't seem to last.I have had many older boats recently and to be honest love them.And they cost a fraction of the new.

[Hk196]

I can understand that boats become bigger and better and more expensive. I can not understand why a GS20 with tower costs the same as the new Ski Nautique without tower. This was the same with the 200 and the 210. What is going on at Nautique?

[slow]

A boat with a tower should cost less because they are dam ugly.

[OSUwaterskier]

I think Carbon Pro’s biggest issue was it was not THAT cheap. The CP was out the door $45k when a similar spec closed bow 200 was out the door $55k. Tough to justify the CP when you would most definitely make that $10k back on higher resale value.

 

I think an out the door $45k competitor would find much more success today, when Big 3 are out the door $70k, $80k, $90k+, than just a few years back. Maybe a brand new boat for $45k will soon look more attractive when $45k only gets you a not-so-great condition used Big3. I don’t think we are quite there yet (there are still some great deals out there), but with how quick the used market is appreciating, it shouldn’t be long.

 

No comment on if a manufacture could legitimately cover their costs on $45k boat... I have no idea what the margins are in the industry but if anyone does, please share!

[RAWSki]

@OSUwaterskier you have a great point -- there was legitimate re-sale value concerns. The other two factors I observed is that the Centurion dealer network was fair to poor when it came to 3 event skiing. And the fact that skiers are fiercely brand loyal. ( Much more so than even full size pick-up truck buyers IMO. ) The great news is most boats are well cared for and the quality keeps improving. So used boats should remain attractive.

[MDB1056]

In conclusion... yes the sport continues to decline for all the above

[MISkier]

I always skied well behind @RAWSki Centurion CPs and they drove well in the tournaments, though I preferred the blue one he got from @Horton for both skiing and driving.

[mcskier41]

after reading the entire thread, I agree that basic economics has a lot to do with pricing: supply and demand, economies of scale.

Recently picked up a brand new 2019 SN from the dealer and pricing was in the low 60's. Asked what would it be for a '19 Ski Nautique and they said low 80's. I didn't believe it and said with a trailer? He said 'yes'. Then I asked how many new 2019 Nautiques have you sold? He said: Counting this one, only 1 SN200 and only one Ski Nautique. I believe supply and demand is starting to take affect as I saw original quotes for Ski Nautiques at $103,000 as they are definitely not selling, at least here.

[MDB1056]

@jjackkrash - kudos for most rational post on the topic

[ScotChipman1]

@mcskier41 For the 2019 Ski Nautique with a trailer quote in the low 80's what engine was that for?

[mcskier41]

@ScotChipman1 We didn't get that far. We were all in disbelief but a friend that was with me is going to sit down with the dealer to run the numbers. Meanwhile have another friend that was quoted similar pricing for the Ski Nautique from same dealer and he's thinking about it. Like everyone else, it's about justifying paying that much for a new boat when all of us have our own SN200's that work perfectly fine.

[ScotChipman1]

@mcskier41 good to hear that the price has come down, please keep us updated. I have the 2019 Ski Nautique promo with the 6.2 and love it, I regularly ski behind and drive a 2016 Ski Nautique 200 with a 6.2 which is nice as well.

[skierjp]

All depends how many options you pick. The base engine is a 6 liter

[Jody_Seal]

Some time we all need to asked our selves is this new high priced gadget going to make me ski that much better? What edge will it get me in competition?

9 times out of ten for the 99 percent of the koolaid drinkers the answer is going to be nill or nothing .

The key to all this is get off the cool aid!

[keithh2oskier]

Bring back the 94 MC 190!

[skimtb]

Depends on use / application. Public / private lake, zero or three people on the boat other than the driver, is the boat a slalom tractor only, or is it also a boat?

Would a ‘94 MC or bubble back or TSC2 with zero off meet A LOT of the demand?Possibly.

Are some people using and liking the bigger space and seating on the “modern” wide hulls and racks on the MC or ski lockers on the nautiques? Etc. surely yes. And apparently they are willing to pay for it.

As others have said - supply / demand.