Baller jercrane Posted November 4, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2019 Something struck me as I was watching a bunch of videos this weekend. The vast majority of video we watch as we are learning technique is from the boat looking back at the skier. Shoreline video is a distance second. Video from behind the skier is quite rare. Obviously this is because it is so much harder to capture and capturing form the pylon or from spotter is so easy. However I personally believe the value of video from behind the skier would be immense. Your brain has to do extra work when you are watching someone perform a task from a face on perspective. You have to first take that body movement and translate it directionally before you can translate that in your mind to first person. If you view the skier from behind your brain has a much easier time translating that into a first person mental model. My wife was/is a dancer. When they are learning new choreography the instructor or choreographer almost always walks them through the various movements with their back to the dancers facing a mirror. This allows the dancers to map the mental model of the movements much easier as they are learning the new dance. Now creating video from behind a skier is not going to be a practical thing for any of us to do with regular skiing for quite some time. Drone technology would have to advance quite a bit and come down a lot in cost I think. But it is getting closer. https://mydeardrone.com/types/follow-me/ Perhaps some of the schools and coaches out there like Terry Winter ( @twhisper ) can start producing more video of this nature. Maybe pro events can think about video from behind or above the skier. I think it would be enormously helpful to a lot of folks coming up the curve like myself. For instance reading the post from @AdamCord on Connection and Swing I kept wanting to see video and images from behind the skier to better understand what Adam was talking about. Maybe I'm off base ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elite Skier twhisper Posted November 4, 2019 Elite Skier Share Posted November 4, 2019 @MarcusBrown is the guy to capture the video. I’m happy to do the skiing. I think the more perspectives you get the more comprehensive the picture can be in your mind. This old video has some different views... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jercrane Posted November 4, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted November 4, 2019 yes we need more of this! The view of the body position at 0:45 through 0:47 is amazing. I find this so much more helpful. @MarcusBrown do you need an excuse for more drone playtime? :) build out a teaching library of rear view videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller AdamCord Posted November 4, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2019 Apparently 41 isn’t hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ktm300 Posted November 4, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2019 Lest my eyes or the camera deceive me, Mapple looks like he is maybe 55 degrees up on the boat in the glide. Have always had in my mind his no gate 39 that was in the VHS he published. Especially when coached that I must be way up on the boat in the glide 75 degrees plus. Apparently, glide height ain't everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted November 4, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted November 4, 2019 I think video from overhead and slightly behind is the most telling when it comes to understanding objectives that the Adams talk about. I think it helps understanding the swing, it's relationship to the boat/rope/ski direction/us and how we race the boat to the ball in a more straight line then we think ..especially at short lines. I think Cale's video on the Denali web site in a continuous loop is a perfect example. When it comes to technique to conquer those objectives, I think other video angles are useful. But many times I think we study the wrong thing and make all kinds of assumptions based on angle of the camera both still and video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jercrane Posted November 5, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted November 5, 2019 My wife just showed me another easy demonstration of the challenge of watching someone do something from the wrong perspective to learn it. Stand face to face with someone and have them move some part of their body. Mimic their movements. Don’t mirror ... mimic. If they lift their right arm you lift your right arm. Just starting the process you have to think for a second and you have to keep your brain engaged pretty much the whole time. I can pretty much guarantee that if you do it long enough or the movements get complicated or fast enough you will find yourself mirroring instead of mimicking. Now do the same thing but instead of facing each other stand facing their back. You can basically now almost turn your brain off and mimic their movement without even thinking. You can also keep up with faster and more complicated movements. It’s pretty wild actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Laz Posted November 5, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2019 @twhisper That is the video I show when ever I try to explain my addiction to a non-skier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted November 5, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted November 5, 2019 BTW That's gotta come close to the worst thread title ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted November 5, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2019 @ktm300 Glide height doesn't matter if you're Andy Mapple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jimbrake Posted November 6, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 6, 2019 @Wish - I haven't read the thread, so fill me in. We're supposed to post videos of our backsides? OK. I'll pick the best one and.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted November 7, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted November 7, 2019 @jimbrake That's correct only you're supposed to PM them to @Horton directly. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skichief Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 From a skier and drone flyer perspective, I planned to film more next season on those closer views, from unique angles. Flying the drone behind during a pass gets measurably harder as you get closer and lower to the skier. It's going to take a lot of footage to get those right screenshots. Something I'd like to work on the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller igkya Posted November 7, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 7, 2019 The Denali homepage has a decent vid - https://www.denaliskis.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller elr Posted November 7, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 7, 2019 My dad was a left handed golfer and taught me - right handed - by standing face to face. Seems like a LFF (RFF) skier could effectively "dry land" coach a RFF (LFF) skier by standing face to face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jercrane Posted November 7, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted November 7, 2019 @elr yeah interesting thought. I think this breaks down once you get into the course a bit since we all start and exit the course traveling left to right. Interesting thought though for studying 2,3,4 and 5 technique where hypothetically LFF and RFF should be mirror imaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted November 9, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted November 9, 2019 Good perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MarcusBrown Posted November 9, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted November 9, 2019 https://www.instagram.com/p/BoXKz51gem-/?igshid=cw9kqebh692s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MarcusBrown Posted November 9, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted November 9, 2019 Here’s another one, from a couple years ago, of Will Asher. I’ve got lots more, but just haven’t let it seem the light of day. Maybe someday soon... https://www.instagram.com/p/BbzoSdDlpKS/?igshid=elaoyfepdbuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jetsetr Posted November 9, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 9, 2019 Terry Winter has some from 15 off to short line from behind with a drone...awesome to see the different line needed as the rope gets shorter... Have to re-up to his training site...life keeps getting in the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller pregom Posted November 9, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 9, 2019 The video from @twhisper at the top of this thread is really awesome and illustrates the point @jercrane is making. I like footage shot with the drone high up and behind the skier (like the background on Denali's website), but what I find truly amazing and good for coaching is a water level view of a skier from behind, say 10-20 feet behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ALPJr Posted November 9, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 9, 2019 Not backside vid but a darn good one https://www.instagram.com/p/B1-LFrThkwp/?igshid=ilgu7lk1zsph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Luzz Posted November 9, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 9, 2019 Just my two cents. Part of your ability to watch some video with the intent of improving your technique comes from your ability to imagine it. That is, can you see AND feel yourself doing those movements without actually doing them? When it comes to visual imagery, there are two modalities: internal: seeing from your own eyes external: see yourself out there doing the movement, as if you were watching a video of yourself Now, external imagery can obviously occur from different angles, which begs the question of which angle is best. I'd say that provided you can imagine the feel, any angle will do. Taking imagery ability out of the question for a second, the key thing is to be able to understand what the movement is. In this sense, I can see how videos from different angles can provide the information for one to understand the movement. However, after that stage, the best part is to be able to replicate it in your mind. Interestingly, research tells us that for "slalom-like" sports, internal visual imagery is the one that leads to better performance. On the other hand, for sports in which form is a crucial component of performance (e.g., tricks), external imagery helps to learn a new movement. However, when this new movement needs to be implement in a sequence, reverting back to internal helps more. Consequently, different angles might actually be more effective for tricks than for slalom. Ski coach at Jolly Ski, Organizer of the San Gervasio Pro Am (2023 Promo and others), Co-Organizer of the Jolly Clinics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted November 12, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 12, 2019 @Luzz I'm going to drop my hat for slalom in the *Sport in which form is a crucial component * category. I believe most people visualize themselves from behind and it takes training to visualize from within. Some can't visualize or its not very easy . That's where good coaches utilize kinesthetic and or verbal cues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Luzz Posted November 12, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 12, 2019 @drago you can categorize the same sport in different ways, but slalom is more of a "move in space in a certain way" sport than "get judged by how you look" sport. That aside, you bring up a good point. Imagery ability changes at the individual level, which means that some people struggle to see themselves in first person (rare) or in third person (more common). However, the cool thing about kinesthetic imagery is that you can experience that from either visual perspective. For example, if I ask you to imagine yourself going through the gates at 28off, you might imagine the scene from your own eyes or from a "video-like" perspective. Regardless, you are equally likely to experience kinesthetic images, e.g. shifts in balance, muscle contractions, without those being there. Btw, for those interested in more about imagery and skiing, I wrote this article for BOS a few years ago :wink: Ski coach at Jolly Ski, Organizer of the San Gervasio Pro Am (2023 Promo and others), Co-Organizer of the Jolly Clinics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jtim3032 Posted November 13, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 13, 2019 With a bit of practice (and some courage flying low over water with an expensive bit of kit :D ), it can be done. I am sure I could get a lot closer to the skier with some more practice. https://dropbox.com/s/kledsbzfi1x7zf1/DJI_0014.MOV?dl=0 And here is another one where maybe I got closer than intended! ... https://dropbox.com/s/1rss2of82bvh5bb/Rachel%20-%20June%202018.mp4?dl=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jtim3032 Posted November 13, 2019 Baller Share Posted November 13, 2019 The ideal is to pre-program a flight path and height for the drone and trigger it as the skier approaches the course. Sometimes dangerous though as the height sensors on drones often get confused over water! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jercrane Posted November 13, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted November 13, 2019 @Jtim3032 That is awesome stuff. The second one especially. Perfect view of the skier body position. Exactly what I want to see more of. I want access to a library with a bunch of clips of pros running 22 off through say 38 at 36 and 34 from that perspective in 4k. I would happily pay for access to that. I could waste hours of my life rolling that video back and forth in slow mo. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jercrane Posted August 8, 2020 Author Baller Share Posted August 8, 2020 This! https://www.instagram.com/p/CDoif5MhLj-/?igshid=18vquglk1r7ne Love this video so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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