Lack of Ankle Flexation Compensation

[TacoMan]

Hi Guys,

 

Looking for some input regarding overcoming ankle flexibility in the forward direction. Most guys can get 20-25 degrees forward, I can only get around 5 or maybe 10 (in both ankles) if im really pushing it due to injury. Currently I've got double Wileys with about a 1/2 inch riser under my front boot heel which helped a lot but im still struggling. Tip pressure is a huge issue (or lack there of). I used to ski an old hardshell and looking at maybe a reflex front with a heal strap and a Wiley rear. Ultimately im trying to find some moderate compensation to generate tip pressure. (I realize ultimately form and your hips fully up is the key to success in skiing and generation of tip pressure and control, however i cannot get to where i want to be ideally because of my lack of flexibility) Should i stay with rubbers now and shim the rear as well? (I am quite a heel lifter now in the rear). could i be looking at several pre-releases in a reflex with to much boot cuff pressure?

[Orlando76]

IMO the HO Hardshell gives a little bit more flex than Reflex.

[Horton]

@TacoMan I do not believe a heel lift will help anything. It is a common misconception that a heel lift will help you get forward. You do not need to drive your ankle past zero degrees to get your weight far enough forward. A heel lift may actually make it harder to get forward because it puts you in an unnatural position.

[Stefan]

@Horton , in my opinion I think you are wrong. As an example, look at the pictures of good skiers in full lean just before center line, they all have their front of the forward knee in front of the front toes? If you can't accomplish that because of restrictions in ankle flexibility the only way to get your knee forward is to have a heel lift as @TacoMan and I myself have (because of same reason as @TacoMan ). You are bound to be to far back on the ski otherwise. My belief @TacoMan is that you need to raise the back heel as much as the front to be in balance. Before I raised the heels I got hurt in the ankles when I got forced kneebend in stressed situations. I can't ski without it. I'm not a high level skier, but still, raised heel made it possible to ski for me without risk of getting injured because of forced ankle angle higher than my limit.

[BraceMaker]

I'd go RTP. If your rear heel needs to come up and cannot you may need to get more freedom to compensate.

 

@Stefan i tried this too. The mistake is that adding lift to "force" the knee forwards of the toe is putting that force into the heel of the front foot by definition. So even if you move the knee forwards you've moved the pressure on the foot backwards. To prove this to yourself if you remove the wedge and don't fall backwards you've moved your pressure forwards.

 

If you have limited ankle ROM it is a disadvantage that just cannot be solved by wedging the boot. You may be able to save your ankle pain but you cannot force the pressure forwards.

[ScottScott]

I don't know that I would try to raise the front heel. I am experimenting with a little lift on my rear heel due to limited forward flex capabilities in my rear ankle. You will want a little forward ankle bend in the front, but probably don't need that much. I think you'll want a little more forward flex in the rear foot to be able to keep knees close, while keeping weight forward. Some lift on the rear heel could help there.

[liquid d]

My front ankle has sucked since the 90's. The way to get tip pressure without much forward lean on the front foot is to use double hardshell boots. You're not looking to get up on your toes. If you get forward flex and it hurts, then fix the front boot so that it only flexes so far forward. Mine has a bolt through the back of the front boot keeping it in a slightly forward press position.

Adding tip pressure can come from moving the boots forward a hair...or adjusting the fin.

[TacoMan]

@stefan I completely agree with the back foot heel lift. It should get my rear foot much more stable and stop myself from a constant unstable lifting of my heel now while skiing to try and allow me to get my front ankle to 0 degrees as @horton mentioned. Now in my case my rear ankle is much more restricted than my front so either a) i lift my heel while skiing so i can get my hips and body forward enough to get my front ankle to 0 degrees relative to my ski or B) i wedge the rear boot to accomplish the same thing and be more stable in the process.

 

 

[TacoMan]

@liquid d do you have to run your hardshells at a much stiffer release tension to stop a pre-release while wake crossing? Lools like it may be problematic with the extra boot cuff pressure (in the dorction of the boot release) you would be generating with that restriction of the boot motion you are imposing in the forward direction. Or has ot never been an issue with releasing?

[TacoMan]

I also am giving up skiing at 36mph and will opt for 32mph and ski recreationally from here on. How do you you guys think binding position will benefit me given the circumstances? Forward, backwards, same? Removal of the rear wing? Any advantages of set up given the limited range of motion I'll take.

[liquid d]

My boots are fixed on a double plate attached to the ski with Dual Lock/Interlok. It will usually release on a 1/4 bouy effort. It will also release on a out the front, but (knock on wood) that's an extremely rare fall.

That added cuff pressure assists in applying tip/forebody pressure on the ski.

[chrislandy]

The question, IMO should be why have you got the ankle flex issues and what exercises can be done over the winter break to increase the flexibility.

 

At the beginning of the year I had serious shoulder mobility issues and with 6 months of targeted exercises, strengthening and stretches I've got most of it back to what would be considered "normal"

[jpattigr]

@TacoMan My left front ankle has the same issue from an accident at 18. I plugged away trying to get better at skiing and after I installed heel lifts on both boots equal. My skiing took off, I think that my front knee can now get over my toes helped a ton. Lifts on both boots balanced me better then when i tried just the front boot. My back ankle flexes normal but I need to be balanced.

 

[Stefan]

 

@TacoMan - My setup, as @jpattigr , I beleive in equal too.

[jpattigr]

@Stefan Thanks for the picture! I often wondered if a Reflex setup could be done with lifts. Good to know it works.

[TacoMan]

@stefan do you generate a considerable amount of pressure at the boot cuff and has your set up generated any pre releases?

[TacoMan]

@chrislandy i spent over a year in PT trying to gain more mobility and basically his a brick wall in therms of motion gained. Was told by medical teams this is the best I will probably get so i guess its time to work with what ive got unfortunately.

[Stefan]

@TacoMan "@stefan do you generate a considerable amount of pressure at the boot cuff and has your set up generated any pre releases?"

No and no.

I don't really see why it would generate more pressure on the cuff to have the boot angled forward a little, I would imagine less? Alpine skiing bindings are all higher in the heel than in front.

[aupatking]

@Stefan I’m amazed at the amount of trust you have in that heel cup under your front boot. I eviscerated a bunch of those. I gave up on them before Reflex started making them out of any decent material, I guess.

[chrislandy]

@TacoMan fair enough, I've just noticed that these days the first question asked by people in general is "what can I buy to sort this problem" or "If I add this, will it make it better" etc and ignore the most important question "why is xxxx like this and what can I do to make it more flexible/better/less painful etc" not treating the cause, only the symptom

[skialex]

@aupatking I wouldn’t worry about the heel cup. Boot actually sits on 3 3m plate pieces stacked together. Generally it looks a solid mod. I’m only curious of what those screws going through the top of the release bases are. They look like wood screws :)

Personally though believe that this mod puts more heel presure on the ski, but if it works for some then why not.

[Stefan]

@skialex They are not wood screws... They are SS machine screws and the nuts under the plate are flat brass ones that fit into the slot on the underside of the one piece carbon plate. Plate and nuts all bought from Reflex years back except the SS machine screws that needed to be longer. SuperShell 4.0 bindings, boots and R-style rear all bought this fall. I have had similar setup on my previous ski for at least 10 years, see last pic. Binding plate on old ski mounted on superstrong interloc, it's the bindings that release, not the plate.

 

 

[skialex]

@Stefan yes I remember those plates with the brass flat nuts, yes you can not really countersunk those plate holes, they are already to big. I believe that it is safer when the screw is going through the bottom instead because with your setup these nuts only have a couple of useable threads. Anyway if you want you can countersunk the brass inserts and use countersunk screws from the bottom up.