The rise and fall of water skiing

[ALPJr]

I would vote for the candidate who’s platform is, ‘an Okeeheelee in every state’!

[BraceMaker]

@JeffSurdej - Actually that's impressive, I would never have guessed that you could recruit 981 new members. A world where you improve retention and have 1000 new members a year is very different than one where you improve retention but only have 50 new ones a year.

 

[The_MS]

Exactly. No shortage of skiers waiting in 1/2 hour lines to ride the gondola up the hill

[NameUnavailable]

I live at Princeton Lakes and I bet we have less than 40% of the on water lot owners that are members of USA water ski....maybe the skiers are still out there, but just see no value in joining? If you don't appeal to people that would spend $500k+ to be on a private ski lake maybe it is the product? (Cost/Value of USA Water Ski Membership)

[scuppers]

I live on a pretty pricey private ski lake property and I won’t shell out the $125. (Or what ever the current USA Ski membership costs) as a result I am prohibited from posting on the most interesting threads on BOS. Still It is a “value for money” determination for me.

[JeffSurdej]

@scuppers $19.95 is not value enough to be able to post on those BOS threads?

[scuppers]

Naw!

[unksskis]

@BraceMaker back in August, if that is lately. Prefer to trick at the cable.

[gsm_peter]

@JeffSurdej Some reflections on waterskiing in Sweden.

 

It is easy and “cheap” to ski in Sweden!

 

There are approximately 66 active clubs.

In reality all clubs are open for new members.

Most member fees are low, type 100 USD per year (plus gas).

 

It is legal to ski at almost any lake (not to small and open for motor boats). There are about 90 000 lakes in Sweden.

We have also a long coast line with 100 000 islands.

There are almost 1 M boats in Sweden.

 

There is no need for a driver license, no need for spotter, no requirements for life vest, no need for permits, no boat registration.

I do not know if there is rules about a install a course?

– just go and ski!

 

Many people consider waterskiing

- A bit hard on the body

- A bit dangerous

- Take some time to get started

- There are more fun things in life

- Can only be done in perfect sunny day

 

I think that hard on the body part is the major problem?

 

Jeff. Welcome to Stockholm if you have the time.

I will try to help you visit and ski at a bunch of clubs

 

Some more info in an old post:

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/6555/how-a-ski-club-works-in-sweden

 

 

[ALPJr]

Might explain why the Kjellander’s have done so well.

[ALPJr]

[pregom]

Nice video, @ALPJr ! A couple of observations:

their skiing style seems much more "physical" than today's style. In some cases they are bent at the waist but they still manage to pull through and continue. Amazing!

rope lengths are measured in what I would call the "normal" way - length of the rope from pilon to handle. When did the "feet off" way of measuring get introduced?

 

I also don't understand why lengths are measured in feet instead of meters, but that's a different story... :smile:

[Horton]

well this thread is now incredibly far from its original topic but let me add anyway....

 

I got an Instagram message today from an actor in Hollywood who is from the Caribbean and who skis when he's home. He asked me where can he ski near Los Angeles... The answer is of course he can come ski with me when it gets warm but I don't run a ski school, there's a club he can join here in Bakersfield but he has to supply his own boat, or he can buy a house on a ski lake for hundreds of thousands.

The bottom line is access is difficult and I think it's a little bit ridiculous to try to place blame on that problem. I think it's easier in many other parts of the country but looking at the problem of Los Angeles has really opened up my eyes to how hard it is to get started in the sport.

 

To make matters worse all the lakes in Newberry are facing the possibility that they're going to have to pay a state water agency for the water and it's going to get expensive. Some of those lakes are already slated to be shut down.

 

Getting started can be hard and expensive.

[skiboyny]

@Horton That's the bottom line! Only the fortunate few can participate.

[Jetsetr]

Simple answer is that it all comes down to cubic dollars....

[BraceMaker]

I've also tricked at the cable park and that's reasonable. If I tricked more I want one of those feature boards horton posted. But I don't think I can get enough scratch for my D3 to make it a reality for how much I use it.

 

@pregom when the boats were 2000 lbs and 240 horsepower with a hand on the juice....

[ALPJr]

@Horton Great off season thread. And, while this thread has weaved off track a bit at times, I think that @gsm_peter is on track with his post regarding the opportunities in Sweden. My reply to him was in the vein of, oh that’s where the Kjellanders grew up and oh yeah they were certainly part of the hey day of pro skiing. Then I found the 1990 pro tour highlight with Mike, Lucky, Kris and Bob which had to be close to if not the peak of pro skiing with TV coverage, thousands of people on the shorelines watching gritty pros battle it out in variable conditions to see who was the best on that day, and who would advance towards that year’s tour championship.

 

I’m not sure why the pro level veered away from that format and those locations. Many, many reasons probably. But other sports like tennis, golf, surfing, snow skiing, etc. have done well by putting the pros in venues near big populations and having each event’s results count towards that season’s ultimate championship.

[swc5150]

When the DD ski boat was the bread and butter of MC, the Pro Tour was a fantastic rolling promotional tool. Then the X Games came along and wakeboard boats became their profit center, the Pro Tour ended, removing 3 event from the public stage. Maybe it's really just as simple as that?

 

In my lifetime, I've yet to see waterski show attendance decline here in WI. If a 3 event pro stop were to take place on our river, I guarantee a quarter of the city would show up to check it out. It's just about who would put the money behind it and the ROI, and it's clear surf boats are priority for manufacturer's P&L's right now...and rightfully so. But at the same time, we have arguably 4 of the best ski boats ever built on the market:)

[unksskis]

2 hours at a cable park is $25.

[MISkier]

@unksskis, you can ski for two solid hours straight at a cable park for $25?

 

First, that is some amazing fitness. Second, that is a tremendous deal.

[unksskis]

@MISkier you get access to the cable for 2 hours. Usually 1 hour is enough, and although you could ride for the entire time and plenty of kids seem to try, I usually tire or fall, where you then go back to the dock to start again. You can buy packs of 10-2 hr passes for $200, which puts it at $20 per 2 hr visit. It's like a snow ski lift pass, by the hours purchased.

[The_MS]

@swc5150 need to get the water in MKE cleaned up so we can get the Malibu open back.

[MuskokaKy]

@Spencer_Shultz7 you are on the right track!

 

@MarcusBrown is the leader in marketing / advertising on a level that will actually attract new skiers. He's a cool dude, that has more than just waterskiing in his media / vids. The lifestyle is what will help sell the sport. To date he is the only one i see that actually knows how to do that

For the current skiers @Horton is ( again from what i see) the only person even keeping this thing alive ( on a larger stage so to speak)

 

@MarcusBrown just an idea....I think it would be cool to have like a "celebrity flowpoint" episode. Lots of cool famous people ski and you are wildly loved in the sport and beyond. I'm sure there's a bunch of celebs who would love the opportunity to rip with you and i know you could turn that into a stellar episode ( which hopefully goes viral); a couple good OTF with some celebs...who wouldn't like to see that!?!

 

I made a comment to a buddy that if waterskiing was on keeping up with the kardashiens ( i don't watch nor know how to spell their last name); it will be all the talk for months to come and could help the scene out......my buddy then reminded me we wouldn't want to ski with anyone who watches that show haha!!

 

On a semi off topic; because of @Luzz ( the waterski podcast) and @MarcusBrown i now understand and have a true respect for collegiate water skiing! Already leaning towards a school ! haha

 

 

 

 

 

[ALPJr]

@The_MS Milwaukee was a great. Charleston should be a good draw too. Will look at my pro tour t-shirts. Seems like a most of the stops were near population centers.

[MISkier]

@unksskis, how do they collect the amount of time you are actually riding and subtract it from the hours you bought?

[The_MS]

Prime locations in MSP and also in the Rochester Mn city center for a pro event. Just need someone with time, effort and money to take it and run. Most of our issues with no pro events come from lack of promoters with the know how.

[ALPJr]

The land of ten thousand lakes makes sense! And yes, like The great promoter Bill Grahm said, “you’ve gotta put asses in the seats”

[MISkier]

@ALPJr, not just the land of 10,000 lakes, but the birthplace of water skiing.

[swc5150]

I'm actually performing (music) at a MN festival called Lake City Waterski Days in June, so you'd think a pro event would work somewhere in that state?!

[unksskis]

@MISkier they don't, you have access to go for the 2 hrs, or whatever you purchase. If you purchase a 2hr pass starting at 3pm, you can go until 5pm. Unlimited falls.

[chrislandy]

I think this other thread sums it up https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/22915/way-old-school-tournament

 

When did we stop tricking over jumps? ;) oh wait, the wakeboarders do that now.

 

I saw another with freestyle jump, including some on mono - truly bonkers but great showmanship

[chrislandy]

@unksskis but if it's busy and you fall off at the other end of the lake you may only get 2 goes for your 2hrs

[DW]

In agreement that skiing (either type) is expensive, I would caution that putting a lot of emphasis on cost as the primary reason, that may not be actually as much of a deterrent as people think.

 

Consider local short track (car) or motocross racing and it's costs along with the participation level. There are thousands of short track events spread across the country and thousands of competitors hammering away at numerous tracks across the country. The costs well exceed what it takes to waterski and if you add the personal sweat and hourly labor to actually do it, it dwarfs what it takes to hit the water.

 

Basically my point is, if one has the desire to participate they will and there are thousands of people willing to engage in a variety of very expensive sports. Just my humble opinion, finding the trigger that makes one push the 'desire' button to waterski is a key. Certainly one way to trigger the 'desire' button is the promotion of or the aspiration to be that top level pro athlete with all the accolades that accompany it.

[Horton]

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B7dVmBkhHBK/?igshid=r54qmc6a8iry

 

does anybody know just how many competitive cable skiers there are in the world?

[Cooper_Trelawney]

All 3 events look really different technique-wise on the cable compared to behind the boat. I wonder if any skiers have had cross over success between cable and towboat?

[MattP]

World ranking list had 119 people total For all men and all women. This includes kids. The IWWF regular list has 4,228.

[Horton]

hmmm yet the IWWF female skier of the year is a cable skier

[MattP]

Self promotion? If I’m not mistaken they believe cable wake and then skiing are our “ticket” into the Olympics now that the pipe dream of skiing behind a boat will never happen in the Olympics.

[Horton]

@MattP that is the exactly what I hope is not true.

 

If AWSA is subservient to USAWS and USAWS is subservient IWWF and AWSA has more members than all other groups* in the IWWF one would think that IWWF would serve AWSA's members first.

 

Perhaps I should be believe rumors but I have heard for years the IWWF sees cable as the future. I have NOTHING against cable skiing. The more cable parks in the world the better but it is NOT what we do. We (AWSA) 3 event ski (mostly slalom) and always behind boats. We are the members. We are the constituents. The organizations should serve us.

 

 

(*+/- show skiing)

[MattP]

@horton agreed but even at the PanAm level we as USA only get 1 vote when we host 98% of the L tournaments in the region and are the largest member country in IWWF and at the world level our voice/vote is counted the same as Asia and Europe. If we want the organization to at in AWSAs best interest we need to have our members in leadership positions. Currently that’s not the case.

 

@klindy has the stats he went over in the So Region meeting last week.

[pregom]

I can see similarities between jumping (or tricking) pulled by a boat and jumping pulled by a cable. Could anyone who has been pulled by both methods comment if my statement is correct? If the experience is the same, does the pulling method matter?

 

I don't see slaloming with a cable pull, unless you have a "pilon" mounted on some rails and that is pulled by a cable.

[Horton]

@pregom the towing method matters because it is not the same. It is not what we do. I am sure it is similar-ish but it is not what we do. How is an athlete from a tiny niche a bigger star then Regina or Jacinta?

[MattP]

[ForrestGump]

@Cooper_Trelawney My buddy Nikita Papukal cable skis for Belarus. I think was 2nd at the cable world championships(I know 2nd in jump). He can run into 39.5 at 36 and can jump 190 behind a real boat. There is crossover potential.

[BraceMaker]

@pregom -

 

haven't jumped on cable. Have tricked on both.

 

The huge difference is the pull direction and speed - typically cables run about 19 mph, but also there is variance, you deflect the cable which can slow you down a bit but it always rebounds, as you round a pylon it changes directions suddenly. You can see that in the jump video where a good bit is the skier "loading" the cable to get some more speed.

 

On trick however the pull of the cable is much more upright, keeping the handle low is a challenge, it makes any sort of surface trick harder and on most cables you are forced to use their handle so no toe strap. Its a very different thing.

 

Of the sports I suspect cable jumping is probably the one with the best carry over for learned skills, followed by trick skiing, then slalom.

 

 

[pregom]

@Horton - my point is that if jumping pulled by a cable is practically equivalent to jumping with a boat pulling you, then I don't buy that "this is not what we do." Regina Jaquess or Freddie Krueger are awesome athletes but I would argue that so are the athletes that achieve the same results with a cable pull. And the video from @MattP above shows that even slaloming is possible with a cable. In that video at 2:20, we see Nadav Ativ all smiles after getting to run the course at 10.25m @ 58 kmh. That's 41 off @ 36 mph, if I'm not mistaken. An impressive result. I confess I've never heard of Nadav, but I would argue that it's not different from Freddie Winter, Will Asher or anyone like them getting into 41 off with a boat pull.

 

Yes, it's not what we do, but perhaps, just perhaps, could it be that cable pulls are the future? and could it possibly be that that's what could bring back more popularity to our beloved sport, the original topic of this post?

[pregom]

Put it another way, could cable pulls and boat pulls coexist? Could results be equivalent? Is a 240 ft jump the same, regardless of pulling method?

[MISkier]

@pregom, results between cable skiing and regular boat skiing will never be equivalent. We can’t even agree on the “equivalency” of ZBS.

[Horton]

@pregom My point is I don't want the organization that represents me promoting a sport that is not really what I do. I've got nothing against cable and yes it's similar but I don't even know of a cable park in the United States that has slalom and jump.

[DW]

I'll toss in a comparison, maybe valid maybe not. The ACO oversees international endurance road racing (cars), IMSA does the same for North America. The biggest problem for NA competitors is a lack of rules alignment for taking a top level prototype race car over to the worlds most prestigious event, the 24 hours of Le Mans. ACO basically says 'pound sand' to the US class even when the ACO class can't draw more than 6 cars. Basically, the French say we'll make our rules the way we want and to heck with you guys. Been an issue for decades and IMSA has been trying to align the rules for that entire time.