Converting a direct drive ski boat from gas to electric

[BraceMaker]

@Jetsetr - the weight aspect is true, but like eleeski said - full engine plus manifolds bellhousing transmission and mounts and I'd wager on 1000 - I know when I've pulled using ski boat engines you're taking parts off to not bypass the ram on the hoist.

[cougfan]

@skier2788 that thought crossed my mind since one of my ski partners @Rednucleus skis at Hilltop also. Then I talked to Ron of Pacific Nautiques at the Seattle boat show about outfitting a boat from the hull up. He said it would cost WAY TO MUCH $ and I would be better off using a donor boat. That is why I am going in that direction. Would have been cool to have a camo painted ski boat though ?.

On a side not just met a guy who lives on Orcas Island Wa who builds electric boats in the style of the old wooden Correct Craft boats. Planning on picking his brain a bunch about this project!

The more I research this project the more stoked I become ?

[UWSkier]

If I could get a legit 90 minutes of runtime at 34-36 MPH without a weight penalty, I'd be chuffed. Even if it took 8 hours to charge in my garage. That suits my use case just fine. We ski on a public lake. From the launch, it's about a 6 minute ride to our ski spot. 3 man rotation, two sets each, each set about 5 minutes maximum actual skiing/running time. That's 42 minutes of runtime.

 

The vast majority of hours on my engine are idle at the end of a pass, tightening up the line, etc.

 

I'd love an electric boat... as long as I could solve the issue of not having a heater. That's a dealbreaker for us year-rounders.

[Jetsetr]

Small block with aluminum heads weighs in less than 500. All aluminum about 100 less. Boat shorty transmissions are not that heavy. My 5.9 CUMMINS diesel in my pick up weighs 1000 pounds. The only thing that makes a 5.7 marine grade is the cam, exhaust manifolds freeze plugs and a raw water pump. It’s not like our BB drag engines that are full of concrete...my 12.7 Detroit weighs 2500...small blocks are kids stuff...

 

Any 1/2 ton pickup can easily carry a small block. There’s no way it weighed 900 pounds. The old Dodge one ton just started to ride decent with 1000 pounds in the back. I question ones judgement on putting more than one engine in the back of a Ranger...

 

I would PAY to see a crew swapping out LI batteries at a Tournament! Pulling up all the floor boards, fork lift to pick up the battery packs...every 6 passes...priceless.

 

My hoist didn’t even wheeze picking up a PCM 351 and trans when I changed engine mounts on the S&S. Had the boom out the 1000 pound load limit position.

 

Back to working on the dinosaur RR...it weighs 1000 pounds too...but makes 3200hp (equivalent). My GE weighs 400 and makes about the same power. One generation difference in technology.

[cougfan]

@UWSkier the plan for the electric boat would be to use it on our private lake for 2-3 hrs for the 4 of us to get in 2-3 sets each.

When we want to go free skiing on the public lakes I will break out my trusty gas powered 2002 Sunsetter LXI.

As far as a heater goes I need to do some more research because @Rednucleus won’t ski without one even in the summer?

[Andre]

@UWSkier Very true!

How long does a completed 34mph pass takes from getting up to stopping at the other end on a 2000' lake? Around 32-34 seconds?

So 1 hr of use when full charge=100 completed passes.

Elecricity is cheap and almost 98% green here...

[ALPJr]

@Bruce_Butterfield I like those more prop thoughts. Maybe a duo-prop system similar to Volvo Penta with one shaft hole, and one rudder?

[A_B]

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manufacturers/back-to-the-future?utm_campaign=TOT%20Newsletter%20Campaign&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=82864899&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9GuIMhu_UTn7Pw4rNINF0uaxI-sclMMnSgzHPvZALuw4PjrZWQ-HNy838NZjNEFZplEU3uaZAiiQ9XZDxvf0w09wlCiNNA8R_g_h1V81Dq7tBmsSw&_hsmi=82864899

[A_B]

Sorry I messed up the long link

[BraceMaker]

Ok what is the need for more props?

[Rednucleus]

@cougfan an electric heater is easy and will be the least of our worries. A hot water shower may be more of a challenge. Maybe propane? And to ski behind an electric boat I can tough it out w/o heat!

[BraceMaker]

@Rednucleus water-cooling will be needed for the application. You'll have hot water available

[UWSkier]

@BraceMaker yes it will require cooling water, but won't likely result in water that's that warm. Batteries like to be 60-80F.

[BraceMaker]

Temp is not energy. Ground water heat pumps can spit hot air out of cooling 37 degree water to 34 degrees output cooling water as a heat source for a heat pump and even better than a typical EV heater.

 

[Jody_Seal]

This is how you do two props on a single inboard.

 

[ALPJr]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see something like this matched to an electric motor

[UWSkier]

@BraceMaker I know that. But you must consider the volume of hot water required to pass through a heater core to give you heat. Batteries won't generate the BTUs necessary to heat a large enough volume of water to have a heater. And the heater won't pull enough heat from return water to have it effectively cool the batteries. Easiest and most efficient way will be to pull lake water, run across batteries, and dump.

[lakeho26]

Or this design from ZF, designed for inboards. Haven’t seen any new news since debuted in 2017 tho

 

[BraceMaker]

@Jody_Seal and this is how you do a single shaft on two electric motors

 

 

@UWSkier - I was pointing out that the small amount of hot water that would come from cooling the batteries, controllers, and motors could then be fed into a heat pump instead of air, presumably being more efficient than an air to air heat pump.

 

In EV's there are either electric resistive heat pumps *tesla* or heat pump based systems - which are claimed to be around a 30% improvement in range when using cabin heat as opposed to using a resistive system.

 

 

 

[VONMAN]

Until the battery package is eighty percent lighter, smaller. Charge rate eighty percent faster, with a longer run time, three hours or more and life, ten years. Run cooler with no chance of fire, I'm in. The reason you can justify in a car is because once up to speed you have over come the mass of the vehicle and the speed is maintained with about 15% of the power. Boats on the other hand are on under constant load. (no brakes on a ski boat) The only way to make a light electric boat with a good wake and a long run time is with a longgggg extension cord. Good luck, prove me wrong.

[ReallyGottaSki]

me I'd rather build a snocat than an eboat in retirement but i'm not going to rain on your parade

 

btw those motors just stack with a coupler, easy peasy

[DW]

@cougfan - good luck on the project, given the tiny market for a tourney ski boat, having individuals going after an alternate power source is a good thing. Pretty difficult ROI project for a 'for profit' company until a fair amount of the R&D is completed.

 

Just my .02 cents worth, and as the LTS example, most likely to start it might be 2 motors driving a single prop, similar to the LTS system in the 196. My guess, the infrastructure will consume as much R&D as the actual motor/battery system itself. Something individual tinkerers don't really have to consider.

[Jody_Seal]

 

Convert a direct drive to outboard. A little transom reinforcement and a jack plate! Add electric outboard. At 90 pounds for 150 hp ! might make a potential pocket ski machine.

 

[BraceMaker]

Just get a MC PS200

[UWSkier]

@Jody_Seal I thought I read that thing is going to be closer to 350 lbs or something. Not sure how it could only weigh 90 lbs.

[gcam4]

There is an outfit in Hickory, NC that is taking tesla drivetrains and batteries for conversions. They also create a motor control unit. Outfit name is HSRmotors. I saw an early 80's Porsche 911 that had been converted, it was defiantly a cool looking car. I don't know much about EV but wonder if something could be done to get a single output shaft.

[Jody_Seal]

@UWSkier I believe they were referring to the power head motor and not the complete with mid and lower units. Still at 350# overall a potent package. And where there is 150 hp next there will be 250.

[Horton]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43030/fords-already-out-of-3900-electric-crate-motors

[Mastercrafter]

@Horton I saw those, and was actually really interested in buying one for a boat, but with no battery or control options, it got way above my pay grade very quickly. If they had a battery and control option.. sign me up.

[chaloux]

I always thought hydrogen fuel cell for a boat would be pretty slick. Generate hydrogen in the boat house with lake water, fill up the boat, exhaust water... Same electric drivetrain.

[BraceMaker]

@chaloux hydrogen generation using.... Electricity? From some sort of hydrolysis cell and then a compressor?

 

To be clear to do that you'd need either a massive solar farm, massive grid infrastructure connection, truck the hydrogen in, or to have your ski lakensmack dab on a natural gas well and be doing gasification on site.

 

Hydrogen is way less efficient than simply charging your battery of solar or buying the electricity and charging a battery. The only reason to talk hydrogen fuel cell vs electric is if you need to have range and fast refilling.

 

Unless there is some new hydrogen fuel cell Ive missed that magically accumulates hydrogen from water with out massive energy consumption.

[DaveD]

Looks like fuel cell boats may be an option in the UK soon.

 

https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-car-bosch/8549471/

 

I believe a fuel cell will be a better option for club boats.

[MISkier]

What is the weight differential of a hydrogen fuel cell system versus a battery pack for the same approximate Kw output? That could be a consideration for the ski boat application.

[GaryJanzig]

Check out the Lordstown Motors Endurance electric pickup truck. The motors are in the hubs of the wheels. If those motors(150 HP each) could be modified where they could be attached end to end you could use 2 for 300 HP or 3 for 450 HP. https://www.lordstownmotors.com/ Aside from the cooling you could fit most of the batteries under the engine cover. The rest distributed around the rest of the boat to balance the weight so the boat rides correctly.

[Southside_Mike]

The fundamental difference between a boat and car is that you can take the car to a rapid charger if you need to recharge in less than several hours. No matter what happens regarding battery technology, the basic facts are that unless your set requirements per day can be satisfied on a single charge, it will be a problem as the cost of installing a rapid charger at a lake would be prohibitive

[ALPJr]

Looks like Evoy is moving forward https://www.evoy.no/

[klindy]

General Motors looks to make a splash with electric boating investment

Nov. 22, 2021 11:46 AM ETGeneral Motors Company (GM)HZO, BC, ONEW, MPX, MBUU, MCFTBy: Clark Schultz, SA News Editor

General Motors World Headquarters

RiverNorthPhotography/iStock Unreleased via Getty Images

 

General Motors (GM +3.2%) announces that it took a 25% stake in electric outboard motor player Pure Watercraft in an effort to extend the company's zero-emissions goal beyond just automotive applications.

The auto giant says the collaboration will leverage Pure Watercraft’s innovative marine propulsion technology and experience in the commercial marine industry with GM's engineering, supply chain and manufacturing capabilities. Looking ahead, the two companies will develop and commercialize battery electric watercraft by integrating GM technology into a variety of applications. Specific product offerings will be disclosed at a later date. The size of GM's investment was not revealed.

"Building upon GM's existing efforts to strategically deploy our technology across rail, truck and aerospace industries, the combined expertise of these two enterprises should result in future zero-emissions marine product offerings, providing consumers with more choice than before," notes a top GM exec on the electric boating play.

Boating sector watch: MasterCraft Boat (MCFT +1.3%), Malibu Boats (MBUU +1.9%), Marine Products Corporation (MPX +2.4%), OneWater Marine (ONEW -1.3%), Brunswick Corporation (BC +1.9%) and MarineMax (HZO +0.7%)

[Keith_Menard]

@klindy https://www.autoblog.com/2021/11/22/gm-buys-stake-pure-watercraft-electric-outboard-boat-motors/

[klindy]

@Keith_Menard that’s a lot of leverage.

[Jody_Seal]

 

Yep bring me your older inboard I have the know how to convert it!

 

[chrislandy]

@MISkier Fuel Cell + H2 tank is about 1/2 the weight for a similar "range" battery from what I've read up on, in a FCEV about 5kg (11lb) of H2 will give around 350miles so effectively no weight change during use.

 

Just got to get the infrastructure there and the cost per kg down

[Laz]

Here is a recent article:

 

bloomberg.com

 

The boat costs $300 000. The article says it has a 200kWh battery and can run for 5 hours. That's not too bad. Electric boats are inevitable, just not sure when.

 

What will happen first? Electric boats will become affordable or regular boats will become even more insanely expensive?

[thager]

Yes!

[VONMAN]

Back in 2001, I worked for a design shop (DGE) and was helping to design a more efficient assembly process for a cheaper cost. The design they had was very impressive. Water was used as fuel that was reformulated into hydrogen and the exhaust byproduct was H20.

The only problem back then was the start up time of10 to 15 minutes. Never could figure why it didn't take off.

Maybe it wasn't dependent on the gas or electric industry? No that couldn't have been the reason?.......Or could it?!!

[VONMAN]

I was referring to Fuel Cell Technology above post.

[DaveD]

@VONMAN Lot has changed since 2001 in fuel cell technology. Start up times are not an issue now, even in cold weather. Biggest issue with them now is the lack of hydrogen infrastructure. Don't expect hydrogen availability to be convenient in the US anytime soon.

[DW]

GM has a fleet of Hydrogen powered vehicles, DaveD nailed it, little to no infrastructure in US.

[VONMAN]

@DaveD The prototype vehicle I was referring to used water as the fuel with a mini reforming process to extract the Hydrogen from the fuel (water) to the fuel cell. You didn't need to fill up. I think that was the reason for the long startup. It was a proof of concept Vehicle back in 2001. The reforming/refining was all done on the vehicle. If I remember right NASA was very interested.

[jayski]

[MAG]

Wow Stanley Meyer has discovered a way to amend the physical law of conservation of energy!!!

Using his invention as water is invected into the (ICE) engine it is "fractured" using his device within the injector releasing H2 which is then burned (combined with 02 )within the combustion camber to produce power with the the biproduct being water. So with his divice , using a little energy, water is "fractued" into H2 and oxygen and then recombind back into water in the combustion chamber with a large net production of energy!

 

Gee I wonder why scintific comunity never supported him.