Correct Craft and Electric Power

[rwskier]

http://ingenityelectric.com/watershed-innovation-introduces-ingenity-brand/?fbclid=IwAR1Cpan6SyN1-tapIuGEaPc5b2ffFTPemZDvrHxCMnYIhEUdOdzjlEbxMUk">https://ingenityelectric.com/watershed-innovation-introduces-ingenity-brand/?fbclid=IwAR1Cpan6SyN1-tapIuGEaPc5b2ffFTPemZDvrHxCMnYIhEUdOdzjlEbxMUk

[dbaconaz]

interesting to see how long the battery lasts!!

 

[swbca]

Better jack up the folks in charge of the electric grids, or they will be telling folks they can't charge their boats and cars this week because brownouts are expected with a heatwave causing record residential air conditioning loads. Ilon Musk says the country isn't preparing for the planned growth in electric cars. We have fabulous ingenuity for planning increases in electric demand and bureaucratic stagnation for increasing supply. Maybe Correct Craft should work on a dual fuel boat so it can burn fossil fuel when electric is being rationed, which can be at any arbitrary time in some states.

[Rednucleus]

How about a solar bimini upgrade?

[hammerski]

If it anything like Tesla batteries, nothing short of amazing! My car, 138k miles is still charging at 98%.

[lpskier]

Yeah, don’t buy one in Texas. A “fill up” might run you $17,000!

 

A guy that lives on my lake was heading up this project. Dusty Able. He’s Austin Able’s cousin and previously worked at Nautique. One hell of a wakeboarder and wake surfer and not a bad skier. He could run -15@36, and I never once saw him wear gloves. That look’s like him at the beginning of the article but I can’t tell for sure because the picture looses resolution as it expands.

[swbca]

@Rednucleus GREAT IDEA . . . you were being facetious, but a solar Bimini top might give you a couple of hours per week of electric skiing. The solar powered boat lifts attenuate the charge rate on the battery to avoid overcharging.

[BraceMaker]

@swbca ironically the way people predict our power grid to look 10 years from now when there are more electric cars will be to treat the cars as capacitance. Get home from work and don't need to use it for a few hours? Plug in and set your car to "sell" its current charge back to the grid. All the commuters who get home and turn the A/C to high causing brown outs now plug in their car that still has a lot of juice particularly if they have some form of at work charging option now those commuters have bought cheap mid day electricity and can sell it as expensive 5PM electricity. And if the car just needs to recharge it can do so off peak as the sun sets.

 

If for instance you had yourself a house equipped with solar power, tesla power wall, a generator, and were set to both buy and sell when people were paying 17K you'd have been making bank. Just a thought.

[Wayne]

A solar panel array the size of a bimini will probably generate 100 to 150 watts. A level 2 charger puts out over 3kW and will probably take over 4 hours to charge the 124kWh pack. A solar bimini would barely act as a trickle charger.

 

I’m also negating the voltage difference so it would probably do even less.

[swbca]

@Wayne I thought @Rednucleus made a good joke. I didn't really think it would work, but I suppose the voltage output could be adjusted by a serial array of solar panels.

[swbca]

@BraceMaker If you take average power rates and average gasoline rates, is one more cost effective for the end user in a car or boat ? I understand that fuel costs are very volatile but conceptually, is there a consensus that electric is cheaper per mile ? Separate question, which has the most efficient production and delivery considering the cost of infrastructure build-out and infrastructure operation and delivery costs ?

[AdamCord]

@swbca we have a Tesla Model Y and a Toyota Highlander. Tesla obviously electric and Toyota gets about 25mpg on 87.

 

Cost per mile of Tesla has averaged to about 4 cents per mile charging at home on 240V 32A.

 

At ~$3 gallon the Toyota gets 3/25= 12 cents per mile. Add to that cost of oil changes and other maintenance that the Toyota needs and it comes out to about 15 cents per mile just for running costs, excluding any repairs.

 

So just for the running costs it’s about 4x to run the Toyota over the Tesla. On top of that the Toyota, as dependable as it is, still periodically needs a battery, radiator flush, starter, etc that the Tesla never needs.

 

Also just FYI my home charger I installed myself in an afternoon, it’s just an RV outlet with 8ga wiring on a 40A breaker. Not difficult. It typically takes 4-6 hours to charge depending on how low the battery is. Normally I just plug it in at night and the car is ready to go in the morning.

 

How would this do in a boat? As far as power and speed control it would be great. For running time and charging speed that’s yet to be seen. I have no idea how much power a boat uses running 36mph down the lake but I’m sure it’s way more than a car at 70mph on the highway. So I assume we’d need fairly large batteries. For most people who ski a few sets a day a charger like what I have at home would be fine. For a ski club - ski school - or tournament application where the boat runs all day a higher rate charger would be a must, so that’s where the additional expense and logistics could be a hurdle to overcome.

[dvskier]

You also have to factor in battery replacement (likely after warranty period). To me this is a huge concern. Very expensive and the raw materials are not in the USA from my understanding.

[Wayne]

@swbca I think I took it literally. The real issue is the output of the solar panel array just doesn’t have enough output to have an impact.

[AdamCord]

@dvskier that's a reasonable concern. There is some data that's starting to come out now that the Tesla Model S has been on the road for 8 years that is looking really promising as far as battery pack longevity:

 

 

Based on my back of the napkin math of 50hrs - ~3,000 miles, 250,000km on this chart would be about 2,600hrs on a boat. So if we're talking a 10% average degradation after 2,600 hrs, that's pretty damn good. Not to mention batteries are getting better and cheaper every year.

 

As @hammerski mentioned above he's at 98% at 138k miles, that's amazing!

 

 

The bigger issue for ski boats is availability. I applaud Correct Craft for developing their own motor and battery, but realistically to get the price and dependability we need it's going to need to come form the auto manufacturers just like the GM engines we are using now. That's why I'm super excited about this thing! Sounds like the perfect battery/motor package for a ski boat and it's coming from a company that already has the business model to sell to marine:

 

 

[jjackkrash]

At the boat show last year IIRC the upcharge for the electric engine was around a $100k over the gas engine. That's a chunk of change.

[Andre]

[The_MS]

Tesla has proven that it is the future and the way to go. When the pick up comes out it will be great. Hopefully we get it into a boat soon. Now for all you people that think we will save the planet with these things, puff, puff give. The power has to come from somewhere. The materials for the batteries has to come from somewhere and be disposed of. Hopefully we figure it all out and I’m sure we will but don’t shut out gas, oil and LNG just yet. Let the market develop and take us where/when we need.

[ozski]

Gas powered transportation will soon be looked at like Nokia phones.. I can't wait for all these electric toys to take over, even aviation is investing in electric tech now. Wheels will be optional one day in the not to distant future..

[chrislandy]

It will be common place very soon, my musings last month suggest its a feasible method of powering a ski boat.

 

I'd stake money on the fact once you've skied behind an electric boat, you'll like the feeling, immediate motor reaction, even faster than ZO, customisable power delivery profiles, silent running - as a driver or coach, you'll be able to hear the skier talk back, even at speed.

 

Once adopted and proven on private lake settings, it'll get rolled out, even if it's a repower in different countries like dealers do for diesel engines - yes, we can get oil burner powered boats in Europe, straight from the dealer. It's only time before we're going electric.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@ozski not sure if you are being sarcastic or really believe that, but "Wheels will be optional one day in the not to distant future"? So we are going straight from gas powered cars to flying electrics?

 

@chrislandy have you personally skied behind an electic boat? If not how can you claim we will all "like the feeling". One of the realities of electric motors is they produce maximum torque at 0 rpm and the torque drops off as rpm increases, so the amount of torque available at skiing speeds remains to be seen. I'm very skeptical that an electric motor reaction will be faster than gas at skiing speeds.

 

"It's only time before we're going electric". Perhaps, but I bet it won't be in my lifetime (the next 30 years or so)

[chrislandy]

@Bruce_Butterfield No, I haven't, not yet, but I have driven electric cars. The response is instantaneous compared to a gas engine, even at speed

 

All the EV motor curves I've seen have a flat maximum torque up to X rpm, say 0-4000rpm then drop off at a relatively constant rate, not just depending on the motor but also the controller and battery.

 

I know it goes against how a prop's torque requirements go i.e. 0 at 0 and higher the more required, but so does a gas motor, in fact most engines I've dyno'd drop off pretty quickly once the max torque has been reached.

 

Ford have committed to electric only consumer market in the UK and Europe by 2030, not hybrid, all electric, so that will only roll down to everything else. GM are making a drop in retrofit motor for V8 replacement for classics and DIY converters - not cheap, but literally pull out and pop in conversion for the motor and controllers.

[The_MS]

Howard Stark was quoted at Stark Expo in the 50s saying that it’s only a matter of time before wheels go away. You can view it on Iron Man

[AdamCord]

@Bruce_Butterfield you're looking for another bet?? I'm in!!

[Stevie Boy]

Not is all lost Blue Gas could be the Saviour, for some of you petrol heads.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield with the increasing percentage of electric vehicles coming out of major manufacturers it seems plausible that electric power plants equivalent to the petroleum power plants would become standard catalog items from companies like general motors. when that happens why would the Marine industry continue to use petroleum?

[The_MS]

The transition for manufacturers will be a nightmare. Would you drop 120 k on a new Nautique knowing that in 2 years it will be obsolete?

[ISP6ball]

I feel like price point, run times, and charging times will have to make some pretty impressive leaps before electric boats take over the gas powered boat industry. I'm excited to see where technology goes, but the last thing a "all in" diehard electric guy wants to say is....

 

"Can we ski behind your gas boat? My electric has 2 more hours before we can take it out"

[Stevie Boy]

Where is all the electricity going to come from, cars, boats, heating and so much more, yes there is wind and hydro power, the cheapest way to produce electricity is Nuclear Power and not too many people are keen on that.

Or tho there has been a lot of money put into electric cars , the better option is Hydrogen or a dirivitive, moving back to the current electric solution, generally in current vehicles the battery drops ten percent or more per year capacity, so not only are you paying for your electric, you are going to eventually have to spend lots on a new battery.

So many people driving around in Big V8 Trucks , I can,t help thinking it,s a dream, but sadly it is harsh reality, there has to be change, if you want your Kids to live and prosper in the future, give up your Gas Guzzling Trucks.

[MISkier]

@Stevie Boy, I thought that the generation of hydrogen consumed a substantial amount of electricity. So, how does that get us out of the electrical capacity issue?

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton plausible? Yes. The real questions are when and how much. Internal combustion engines have been improving for over 100 years and had Billions of dollars invested. While electric cars and boats have advantages, the maturity of electric has a long way to go to catch up to gas.

 

What does a Tesla cost - 3-4x a Honda Accord? And last I checked the company was still losing money on every vehicle that went out the door. And there are the tax and other subsidies that I won't get into at the risk of getting banned:)

 

I have seen all kinds of predictions made about transportation technology over the years and all have fallen way short. If there is an electric boat that is comparable to a gas boat in both price and performance before my ashes get scattered across the lake, I will be amazed.

[Stevie Boy]

@MISkier you can knock it around as much as you like, the Boat thing is just a miniscule part of the problem, so like @Bruce_Butterfield says fairly low priority and unlikely to get the attention, the car industry has applied, it,s the millions of vehicles that will make the biggest impact on the enviroment, until there is some sort of legislation I can,t see the like of correct craft putting huge investment into it, until we are further down the road, they are in the business of making money.

Battery technology is going to be the deciding factor, if other products do not come forward and enter the race.

[The_MS]

@Stevie Boy How can you legislate someone to come up with a better battery? I would think if there was a solution, the free market would pay handsomely for it.

[Stevie Boy]

@The_MS sry if it didn,t read right, what I was inferring was, if the Government came up with legslation, preventing ski boats or any boat being produced with a combustion engine.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@AdamCord Hell yeah!

 

Oh wait....how am I going to collect? Never mind.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield makes sense.

[MichaelWiebe]

Electric will have advantages.... no more lugging around fuel jugs for many of us, no more fumes, quieter operation, less maintenance, less motor space required, hopefully the battery won't infringe too much cockpit/seat space, and maybe even no winterization. Personally, I'm looking forward to it, assuming the wake and pull is good.

 

Typically there's no looking back once you have an electric car, lawnmower, snow blower, etc. The pros out weight the cons.

[Drew_Wright_OBXtoFl]

I am all for it. Run a ski school with 4 boats and keep them running changing oil, impellers, gas and more. You can't get enough 5 gallon jugs and those 24 gallon tanks are way to heavy. I never thought I would say it but ithink it's going to be awesome.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton whew! I was worried that I would have to explain that to you :p

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield i get that batteries are evolving and nothing is simple but how many individual moving parts are in a combustion engine and how many individual moving parts are in a electric motor? it is that conversation that gets me excited.

[ozski]

I've read there are about 20 moving parts in a Tesla. 2000 moving parts in a traditional ICE.. I don't power generation as an issue that can't be solved, if you are half smart you will find a way to offset with solar or something. You can't get oil from the sun or wind last time I checked..

[chrislandy]

@Drew_Wright_OBXtoFl have you thought about LPG? (not CNG), easier to store bulk on site and safer & quicker to fuel.

 

A brief look indicates LPG in the US is around $1.5-4/gal, so more likely towards the lower end if you have a 1000gal tank on site

 

We run them all the time in the UK - I doubt there is a ski school in the UK running on petrol, mainly because petrol is around (£1.40/l) $8/USgal and LPG in bulk is about (£0.35/l, bulk, £0.65/l at the station) $1.7/USgal but also the safety & speed factors

[VONMAN]

Welcome to the land of Make Believe! Until batteries can at least double their capacity to hold a charge and reduce their weight, you might want to keep your gas boat around. Stop comparing auto/Tesla to a boat. A auto can cruise at 1500 to 2000 rpm at 60mph. Your gas boat will cruise at 3600 to 3800 at 36mph. Why is that? Parasitic drag, the boat is under constant load. If you want to spend a day on the lake, better buy two boats. That's why F-1 E racing uses two cars in the race.

[ALPJr]

Would interchangeable batteries for residential and recreational motors be an option?

[buechsr]

If they're saying a GS22 will be getting 3 hours of runtime, with far more power demand than a ski tug, the run time of the same battery would be far longer in a ski boat. I look forward to the future. From chainsaws to cars and now boats, hard to argue that electric is superior for a lot of applications.

[JackQ]

1. I am sure another thousand pounds will do wonders for the wakes

 

2. Not sure that many have power to boat to charge as many have to use solar for their boat lifts.

 

3. I am sure that the low volume of ski boats the cost delta for electric will be significant , I guess we can all look forward to the future of 200K+ boats.

 

4. As far of the load, I am fairly sure the hull drag at 36 greatly exceeds the combined rolling drag and wind resistance of an auto at 70 mph, which is in the neighborhood of 25-30hp.

[ALPJr]

Will reducing non-skiing amenities, hull size, and weight come into play?

[chrislandy]

@JackQ a drag efficient car yes, I believe it is in that region, but a pickup truck is more like 80hp+ and some quick boat hull calcs come up with around 80hp for 36mph and 140hp for 46mph.

 

 

[lpskier]

No problem recharging on sites with no power. Just get a big diesel generator!

[gsm_peter]

My 2 cents.

Gas/petrol power boats will be in use for quite some time.

Electric boats will be used in some cases - when motivated.

 

Battery:

Batteries does 'improve' about 17% per year.

Every year now in the beginning, one ear old technology is unfortunately very old.

Degradation become better and better. 1 000 000 miles batteries are starting to become available.

Batteries can be produced without cobalt and other more 'nasty' materials

Batteries can be charged faster and faster

 

 

BUT

The amount of energy that has to go into the battery is a lot and will increase (to be able to make more passes). To get such power supply out to lakes will be costly.

Especially when one want to charge fast....

 

Current boats are energy costly to drive. Quite some savings can be made BUT maybe at the cost of tracking/skiing experience.