Correct Craft and Electric Power

[DaveD]

Submarines are all electric. We just need to put a nuclear reactor in each boat.

[Fastguy888]

I am the owner of www.ev-mods.com and pretty knowledgably on the subject of electric vehicles. I founded the site not to save the earth, but rather purely for the performance capabilities of electric vehicles and the driving experience. A better car or better boat will win market-share over the internal combustion engine long term vs. temp artificial stimulation from legislation. This is how Tesla is winning, building a better product. A good friend of mine and V.C. have discussed electric 3-Event and Wake-boats; even considering what it would take to launch a company. Retrofitting electric drivetrain into existing Dog-House / Fuel Tank locations would not be our approach; rather we would build from the ground up incorporating the battery as a structural part of the hull. This is what Tesla and other Electric vehicle companies are looking to do as well. https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/22/future-teslas-will-have-batteries-that-double-as-structure-making-them-extra-stiff-while-improving-efficiency-safety-and-cost/

 

 

[Hucklefin]

Many are resistant to electric vehicles because of how politicized it is (against their particular party). There are always solutions depending on the motivation, I can't wait to see what innovation happens to all these discussed industries within the next few years.

 

What's the cost of a Model S with 1000hp? What's the cost of the nearest gas supercar that comes close to that, over a million? Going to be awesome when one of the big three tow-boat manufacturers really steps up the electric game, nautique seems to be the leader for now.

[GPJ]

Don't be standing in the water when you plug it in.

[AdamCord]

@GPJ wait till you hear about the tech that uses a series of explosions to make the prop spin. Dangerous stuff.

[Wayne]

Charging is the main issue for all electric vehicle (EV) applications. We can do all we can to improve power density of batteries but there is no cheating physics. The boat linked at the top of the thread has a 124kWh battery. With a level 2 charger, which is about the most you can install on your home electrical service, your looking at 4-6 hours to charge it depending on how “dead” it is. If I remember the article said 3 hours of run time on a full charge. Considering that your are not using much power when the boat is sitting where a gas engine boat still burns fuel, I’m still guessing the same boat with a gas engine can go at least that 3 hours or more. If I want more run time I can fill the gas tank in about 10 minutes. That is the bane of any EV, once dead it’s going to be parked for a bit.

 

So we can step up to level 3 or higher charging but we are still facing about an hour to charge the batter from fully depleted. Not bad but the logistics of making level 3 chargers available dockside is a tall order since they require 440v service.

 

The auto and commercial vehicle industries are looking at both the vehicle and the charging problems to make EVs more customer acceptable. Faster charging than level 3 is possible but the issue is heat. As the battery is charged it has to be cooled. Faster charging will require more heat dissipation capability than what is practical for being built into the vehicle so you will have to use an external cooling system. We can pump coolant through the charging cable, which will be necessary anyway to keep the charging cable cool. Unfortunately the industry has not agreed to a universal cooling medium for batteries. Heck we don’t even have a single global standard for the charging port. So we have some work to do on standardization. Europe is a little ahead of the US on this as they have a standard for all plug in EVs. Tesla has their own connector in the US but not in Europe. Yes there are adaptors out there but with the cooling problem for charging over level 3 we need to get to a standard so adapters are not needed to support external cooling.

[Than_Bogan]

@AdamCord Yeah, whoever managed to get "internal combustion engine" to stick was a marketing genius. As an engineer, I'd have to call it the internal explosion engine.

[Skoot1123]

To further characterize the internal combustion engine - also referenced to as a controlled burn. Consider peak cylinder pressure plus fuel delivery pressure and there is a ton of potential energy. Thankfully the technology has grown significantly over the years so these are the “new norms”. I would anticipate “new norms” are going to happen in battery and charging technology at a steady pace. It cannot be ignored that is for sure. As with anything there are trade offs and advantages/disadvantages to each. It is up to the consumer to decide for themselves what is the best fit for them.

[BraceMaker]

@Wayne there's a bit of a misperception out there with charge times.

 

Most people focus too much on time to full charge and range/use time at full charge. The problem is that for a battery you can get about a half charge in 20 minutes on a supercharger. Where as it takes another ~hour to do the next half.

 

This means for most users doing partial charges through out the day is more up time on the water than doing full charges and using the full charge up. This is more similar to how most people boat anyway.

You don't necessarily always put in a full tank of gas you toss in 5 or 10 whatever you think you'll need as you go.

 

How this looks on the future who knows. I go about 3 hours to the lake where its 240 single phase. I have access to 440 at work. Nearly every private ski lake I know of is built as a housing development with a transformer ie. Could buy 440 service or is built under or near transmission lines. So for the tournament crowds I bet you could get the service.

 

What is fairly agreed on in the auto industry is that it is very close in costs and range but just barely off on charge time from the big shift.

[chrislandy]

I was going to mention "topping up" during the day. It all depends where the boat is used. Private lake & club boats will be the easiest and quickest for uptake, run a set or 2 then plug in while you wait for your next turn then plug in overnight to top up fully.

 

Most Club only boat lakes I've seen have at least one extra boat over what they use, purely for FoS against failure of their main boat. You could quite easily run one for 1/2 day, plug in, run the other for the other half while always having enough charge to take over if the other fails (or if you have 2 courses, have 3 boats and cycle - again not uncommon from what I've seen at club only lakes, even if it's just to keep the hours even)

 

From a skiing point of view, especially top level, just think, the wake and boat response won't change with fuel level :)

 

Electrocution on the dockside shouldn't be problem either, the chargers I've seen have dead cables until it's plugged in properly, then the on board charge controller sends a little message to the main charger saying "bring it on"

 

I applaud Correct Craft for investing in the tech, it will be the future in some form and it needs the larger niche companies to buy into it to prevent them from being side lined unexpectantly from legislation change (around the world, not just in the US - so forget political elegance).

 

I suspect with their forethought they will become the main powerplant supplier for electric boats, or at least years ahead in development when the others finally jump on. Don't forget they already own PCM and not just Nautique, but Bryant, Centurion, Supreme, plus a load of fishing and speed boat brands, so their internal market is huge

 

[chrislandy]

Also, when considering runtime, it doesn't use power when "idle", so imagine the typical slalom set, 7-10s setup, 16s though the course + a few seconds out, say 30s per run, then 30s break. I know it's guestimation and it's very simplified with loads of assumptions, but if the boat needs 80hp to run 36mph, thats 60kw, so having the 30s rest, effectively halves the power consumption when averaged over time, so thats 30kw. 1kw = 1kwh, so "roughly" 124kwh battery pack would last 4hrs of constant tournament skiing.

[Wayne]

@BraceMaker I think @chrislandy clued in on the use case I was envisioning. Our sport is a small percentage of boat use. I disagree that most people throw in 5 or 10 gallons and go, that’s just the niche slalom ski community on a private lake or possibly a person living on the water. Most of the boating population fully fuels their boat for the day and go until empty or the day is over.

 

I think we agree on the fact level 3 chargers are a minimum to really support an electric boat. I’m not sure I agree with you on how readily available 440v service can be installed. It’s there but not cheap to run the lines, then the charger will run you another $20k or more.

 

I think the reality is we need to see more wide spread offerings and consumer uptake of EVs in automotive and it will come to marine as a more common option.

[BraceMaker]

Agreed just saying somewhat uniquely slalom lakes are so often near industrial power options. As it goes forward slalom may actually make more sense electrically than most other boats as the extra cost is worth the savings in dorking around. Most of us are professionals we know it costs us time and money to fill gas cans carry them to the dock etc. Most people here if I said hey for 20K each you never carry a gas can to the dock again in your life they can and would write that check so long as the thing works.

 

If that 20K also meant that you didnt need to fill up to get home after your set or fill up on the way so you got to work on time win win. Most every ski lake I drive to I at least fill up once.

[ISP6ball]

First world problems......

[chrislandy]

@ISP6ball not really, EV uptake in developing countries will overtake the western world pretty quickly imo, solar already has.

 

It costs a lot to move petrol and diesel around compared to installing a solar farm and battery bank. The US, UK and EU have a tendency to be inward looking and quite an aloof outlook on things.

 

For example, from what I've observed, people in the US wouldn't even dream of using LPG in an everyday car/truck, but most of India runs on LPG as it's much cheaper.

 

The same will happen with EV's and renewables as happened with infrastructure. We see it here in the UK all the time, "this countries rail system is great, that one is better, how come we developed the thing and have the worst of the lot?"... answer, because we developed it and have version 1 of the tech and the developing country just built theirs using version 20 and the cost & distribution to upgrade isn't deemed viable. Those countries installing their first major electric infrastructure will be more viable to EV than any western country as the capacity will be built in to begin with.

 

 

[ISP6ball]

@chrislandy, I was referring to guys willing to drop 20 grand, so they don't have to carry gas cans down the dock anymore.

[MichaelWiebe]

Another example of developing countries moving faster to new products: phones and their apps.

Developed countries have their solid landline systems, while developing countries sometimes lacked these. When mobile phones came along, developing countries sometimes just skipped installing or solidifying the landline systems.

The same for payment systems. Developed countries have credit cards and land-based systems that go along with that. In developing countries they have adopted Venmo and other mobile payment system quite fast.

Adoption rate of EV's and electric boats may also be related to the country's access to carbon-based fuels. A country which must import all their carbon fuels may convert to electric faster.

At any rate, I'm happy to embrace the conversion so far, even though I'm not an early adopter. We have an electric battery lawn mower, snow blower, a hybrid car, and pay an upcharge on our electricity bill to have it come from 100% renewables. Our next car will be electric, and as others have mentioned, I believe an electric ski boat is not imminent... the technology must be verified for the application, and then the pricing must be worked on. I'll be ready when they are.

[Wayne]

Also the $20k is a low estimate. All in for the 440v dedicated drop and charger will easily double that number. Don’t forget your electric boat will probably also cost a premium.

 

That will fill a lot of gas cans.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea of electrification but the use case has to make sense. It taken a while for me to get behind it but the technology progression is what changed my mind. However I really see a hybrid with plug in capability as a more robust solution. The problem is they are expensive to develop since you are mixing traditional and electrified technology making the complexity is higher.

[BraceMaker]

@ISP6ball waterskiing is entirely a first world problems sport. Know of a few people who have multiple boats at multiple ski sites. Starts to make a charger look pretty cheap!

[hammerski]

@Bruce_Butterfield actually Tesla is making money, like any growth company they reinvest their profits building new factories(China, Texas, Germany), expanding the supercharging network, battery technology improvements, auto pilot that’s very close to being fully autonomous and safer than a human when engaged with stats to prove it. Might want to check out the “battery day’ video from last summer. They’re 10 years ahead of the rest and the technology is doubling every 3 years. $39,900 for a Tesla model 3, plus you can get used model S’s in the 20’s. Once you drive one, you realize it’s a legit option. Are electric cars for everyone, nope, but an increasing number of buyers are choosing Tesla. The best sales, service, and driving experience I’ve had to date. Are gasoline cars going away? Not in our lifetime, perhaps our kids lifetime. That new C8 corvette is pretty bitchin, I want one!

[Jmoski]

Tesla makes an amazing car, but their profitability to date is dependent on Tesla selling their EV credits to other car manufacturers whose car fleets don’t meet the fuel efficiency standards overall. Once Ford, GM and other are producing their own EV’s they don’t need to buy the credits and hence Tesla’s bottom line will be truly tested. I would guess that is probably 5 years out, but competition will make things really interesting - I personally am excited to get the Rivian R1T next year when the extended battery pack (400 mile range, 200 if towing) comes out. That competition will pave the way to eventually find its way into the boat market.

[Ed_Johnson]

Although we have had Hybrids for years, after the election last year we figured it's just a matter of time when we see $5 and $6 dollar gas. So we went and bought 2021 Plug in Hybrids. Which both had $7500 tax rebates. I actually bought my first 1/2 tank of gas today, only because, after months of use, it's heading towards $3 now. My Wife has not even bought her first tank of gas yet.

 

We also have had 48 Solar Panels on our roof for 10 years now, and only pay tax on our electric bill. So it feels like were driving for free.

 

An electric boat would just be great. The Slalom Course is right in front of my house, so I only need it to run 1/2 hour at a time. Same for my ski partners. Plus the instant torque you feel in my SUV would be great in the boat. I truly believe it is the future.

 

 

[aupatking]

when the battery is part of the structure, my concern is once the battery is EOL, so is the boat/car. So that 1961 Ski Nautique will be around when the 2025 Ski Nautique is in the landfill. I’m not against the electric vehicles at all. I just see a whole lot being glossed over here.

[NameUnavailable]

@Bruce_Butterfield damn 30 years more of you.....lol

Good points on cost to benefit ratio

[BraceMaker]

@aupatking - I think that's somewhat self defeating as an argument. By and large 1961 ski nautiques are rare. The ones that have survived 60 years have been carefully cared for and people usually have sunk well more than the original purchase price over and over to keep them working. That's making the case that a 2021 Prostar will likely be in use in 2081 as the simple and widely available engine management is going to be maintainable and working which we know is probably not the case. Even at this point in time if you have a 2010+ boat with touchscreens when they don't work the boat needs an appointment at the dealership. How many years from now before even a good dealership says they cannot get the part (or the upgrade software is on a laptop that has failed) What is probably true is that the aftermarket for electric vehicles is only growing at this point in time.

 

And while I do think fuel will get more expensive what I am disappointed in is the lack of good independent data for what might happen as fuel consumption changes. With the EU having electric mandates and globally automakers invested in electric vehicles - does gasoline become an unwanted byproduct of other oil production thereby driving down the price at the pump? Or does the lack of market drive up the costs to have fuel transported to your local gas station?

 

The upstream and downstream effects of all of our energy and fuel sources are important to understand and unfortunately most every talking point you hear (green or oil) are lobbyist driven and not independent.