Should AWSA allow practice scores for class C at least until tournament sanctions are allowed again

[disland]

usawaterski.org/default.asp?Display=3333

[MISkier]

If they limit them to Level 5, there is no value in doing so. And, if they don’t limit them to Level 5, too many top tier skiers will take issue with it. Just look at suggestions to allow overspeed ZBS in Regionals/Nationals for an example of the reaction.

[Horton]

Level 5 & below yes.

Level 6 & above no

[Zman]

Say what?!

[APB]

No just take the time off. Come back strong and proper.

[brettmainer]

No.

But, support the recent virtual leagues that are based on submitted practice scores. Maybe they can become the new grass roots / intro to competitive skiing.

 

If the ban on tournaments extends throughout the summer, just extend the rankings list to cover last 24 months rather than last 12 months. 12 months after tournaments resume, AWSA can trim the list back to last 12 months.

[gjohnson]

Or scrap the whole ratings system and start over. Make tournaments competitive and advancement based on tournament performance, not scores. There’s too many variables involved in tournament skiing for all scores to be considered equal.

[liquid d]

If we open up for tournaments this year, States, Regionals, and even Nationals should be open to ANYONE that sends in an entry. Get the word out and actually see how many people we can include in this great sport.

It won't affect the top ten; it never does. The top skiers deal with whatever adversity comes their way. It might , however, bring in some people that have never qualified for a Nationals. It might get them so stoked to have been included, that they go back home more ambitious and enthusiastic about skiing than they've ever been.

Perfect year to do something drastically different.

 

[thager]

If it's not an official tournament score, it didn't happen!

[Chad_Scott]

Agree with @liquid d with the short tournament season. I’d open nationals and regionals up to anyone that sends an entry. You still have to compete to place or find yourself on the podium. Remove qualifications for this year due to the pandemic and open the event to members whose membership for competition has been shortened by several months.

[LiquidZone]

I agree with Chad and Liquid D, open up regionals and Nationals to all that enter for this season only. Allowing Practice scores would eventually be the end of Tournaments.

[ScarletArrow]

If the goal is to maximize participants in Regionals and Nationals, then everything should be on the table. If that's not the goal, then no - don't change anything.

 

If the suspension of tournament sanctions are extended into June what will the effect be on Regionals and Nationals? I would think Tournament Directors could expect a 50% reduction in participation from last year. If that's true, and I'm acknowledging that it's only a hypothesis, then I think any decision we can make that would remove a barrier to entry should be made.

 

At the very least, I think strong consideration should be given to removing qualification requirements. I think the industry partners and sponsors have determined they want Nationals to be focused on quantity of skiers vs. quality.

 

If you remove the qualification requirement, then the poll question is less critical because then it's only used for seeding purposes. However, it may be a good idea to do it anyway - re: low cost experimentation.

 

There are always more ideas than what we can reasonably implement. And many need to go through the necessary vetting process before being implemented. But the hypothesis's behind the poll question are: Will this increase interest? Will this increase membership? Will this bring in more skiers?

 

We can never really know the definitive answers to these questions unless we experiment. If not this year with all of the crazy circumstances - when?

 

Businesses all across the U.S. are being forced to adapt in crazy ways to survive. Why shouldn't we do the same? If ever there was a year to throw some measure of caution out the window, this would seem to be it.

 

I just don't see the downside one a one-year and experimental basis.

 

Objections appear to be philosophical in nature - i.e. the purity of the score or the accuracy of the ranking. Those are legit, but if no one shows up - do either of those matter? Doesn't it mostly get resolved on gameday anyway?

 

Just my .02

[BrianKennedy91]

I agree, open up Regionals & Nationals to anyone who sends an entry this year.

[MISkier]

Hard pass on the wide open Regionals or Nationals. I wouldn’t compete if I didn’t earn it. And, so far, I haven’t earned Nationals. I want to attend (and I’m running out of time), but only when I’ve earned it. Others have commented previously on watered down Nationals with the L10 rule. Unrestricted entry would seem to do the same thing.

[Chad_Scott]

@ScarletArrow The flip side of not allowing more skiers this year would result in less entries and less revenue for the sponsoring club for the vendors that pay a fee to have their products onsite and available for sale. With a decrease in the number of tournaments and opportunities for those who aspire to qualify would certainly result in less attendance if we don’t have a plan. While I can certainly respect @MISkier decision not to attend. We don’t have a ton of sights willing to host the nationals. Create a year when the hosting club loses money and that list will become even less than it is today. Bottom line is the more participation we have at nationals and regionals during such an unusual time in the world the better. Come one come all let the best of the day win and the organizers will win as well. I think that’s the best case scenario for this year

[ScarletArrow]

@Chad_Scott I guess that it was I was trying to say (looks like we were responding simultaneously).

 

If attendance (and revenue) bottoms out - yikes! Allowing practice scores is a just a means to an end (participation) in my view. I don't think that it would be the end of tournaments, because it's only experimental - i.e., if it doesn't increase interest, then you can scrap it.

[Chad_Scott]

@ScarletArrow agree 100%. Not for allowing practice scores. Because you are right why go to the tournaments and compete.

[klindy]

Talk about a thread highjack....The poll is about whether to allow practice scores and has nothing to do with qualifying for the Regionals or Nationals.

 

A few facts -

Practice scores TO LEVEL 5 were passed by the AWSA board last January before any thought was given to cancelling any sanctions. Again, they are limited to Level 5 on the ranking list. The goal is to stimulate peoples interest to get involved and find new, innovative ways to encourage participation.

 

There has been a fair amount of interest in various ski leagues and other 'organized' events that are short of what is typically considered a class C tournament. This is a way to people introduced through those events that are not currently involved. We have established a task group to discuss leagues which has been very well attended with lots of good ideas which have been working in recent years.

 

The idea of practice scores is essentially the same as it was before the ranking list where you could get an "expert" rating if you had a rated official witness the performance. At that time an expert rating was the entry ticket for most regionals.

 

This also is an opportunity for judges to get judging credit (and practice) by reviewing videos. Especially helpful for tricks.

 

Finally, the EVP's, President, USAWSWS and all the tournament hosts for Regionals and Nationals had a conference call last evening to discuss where we are today, potential plans/concerns/ideas and to discuss some trigger dates for things that would cost money or be non-refundable. Long story short is it's too early to tell what will happen since things are literally changing weekly. We will be having another call (or more) in 2 weeks or so and more often if needed as we move closer.

 

There are LOTS of possibilities which will work through as we move forward. While we want to maximize the opportunity to compete, the health and safety of the skiers, officials, and spectators is the highest priority.

 

This year certainly looks different than anything we've seen before. We'll get through this eventually. Everyone stay safe.

 

[ALPJr]

I voted a quick no, and now think why not? On the local news tonight a few local high schools have started some fun competitions with athletes submitting videos - solo wall ball, track and field events, swim, free throws, etc.

[gjohnson]

It’s really simple. Tournaments are hard. Practice isn’t he same. It’s not even close.

[thager]

Everybody gets a Trophy!

[liquid d]

@thager ...you want a trophy? You better ski well when you show up.

[BrianKennedy91]

Do we get a trophy or a medal for showing up?

[jcamp]

This year Regionals and Nationals should be ran as a Class C. Then you can run the tournaments with officials pulled from the pool of skiers (like any other tournament), eliminating the huge costs of hotels for the judges. Hopefully that would allow the organizers to protect their bottom lines and maybe even pass some of the savings on to skiers in the form of lower entry fees. Regional/National champs are still champs, entries fees are maybe a little lower and hopefully participation numbers remain relatively the same.

[disland]

@jcamp I have been saying that for 2 years. You can use volunteer officials and still do class L for those who need it, like top juniors or folks who needs scores for sr worlds

[dbutcher]

So do you have a Regional Class L champion and a Regional Class C champion even though some skiers fall in the same age group? Or would the best score in the age group be the Regional champion whether L or C? They might have skied in much different conditions. I don't really care, haven't given it much thought, but generally believe in keeping it simple. Nationals should never be watered down IMHO.

[disland]

@dbutcher within the rules you can use different groups of judges and dirvers within the same age group. We already do that at Nationals every year. All I am saying is use sr judges for the last group in each age division. There is no need for the lower seeds to have class L. Are senior judges that much better than regular judges that if its class C its "watered down". Having a few assistant judges in the mix working with more experienced judges it not going to change the outcome and in the long run will proabaly be good for the sport as these aspring judges will get great experience. The belief that record capable tournaments are better is an old school myth. We dont have hand driving anymore. If a regular judge watches the splash eye is it more accurate than when a sr judge judge watches it.

[MattP]

Regionals & Nationals Class E would allow for records to be set. Relax the rules on who can officiate (Regular & above) and only put the chiefs up in hotels. Allow those that want to pay the entry fee to enter.

[klindy]

You all have about 3-4 different issues in a simple poll about allowing practice scores (which is rhetorical since they are already allowed). It might be best to start new threads for the other issues - qualifications for regionals/nationals, how to encourage more people to attend this year, what class of tournament the regionals/nationals should be & how to reduce the number of officials at regionals/nationals.

[liquid d]

@klindy we're multitaskers! Try and keep up!