How can we do tournaments in 2020?

[disland]

As we move into a new phase of restrictions being lifted, how can we get on with tournaments

[MISkier]

It will depend on the discussions that USAWSWS is probably engaged in with their legal counsel and insurance company. They are very likely to be concerned about their liability as a de facto underwriter of the event.

 

At a minimum, I would think you would need to modify the waiver, or introduce an additional waiver, to address the potential presence of contagions beyond the control of USAWSWS, the tournament organizers/officials, and the host site.

[disland]

@MISkier does the USAWS insurance really provide anything? Sorry but I am not a fan.

[dbutcher]

I like the idea of "no boat judge" as long as weight in the boat is allowed as necessary to make the towboat ride level. Buoy calling can be done accurately by judges on shore while maintaining social distancing, and so can boat path monitoring. Colored rope sections would be helpful so that accidental (or otherwise) failure to shorten the line would be noticed from shore.

 

Jump and Trick will have to be handled differently. A driver cannot handle everything alone in those events.

[MISkier]

@disland, I haven’t had to use the insurance. I suspect it is more to protect USAWSWS than really provide great benefit to participants, officials, or hosts.

[dave2ball]

As much as I hate to say it it cannot be business as usual for tournaments. The judges in the boat will not be 6 feet away and keeping the rope free of the virus could be hard. Have no idea if the virus lives in water. I have seen coworkers

come down with this shit and it is no joke. Some people have no symptoms and others get the crap kicked out of them.

 

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

Id call the travel the issue. Flying places being in airports renting cars etc is the risk

[Zman]

No appropriate answer for me.

[Rednucleus]

If we can get antibody testing to a routine level, a positive antibody driver & judge would be a great team.

[skierjp]

@Rednucleus , but it snowballs from there. What about the dock starter, the other judges, the people that prepared the paper work for the boat, restrooms, water for officials, food, who prepared it? Then the skier that hands you his or her handle. It seems like there is no end. With that being said it will ultimately be the governor’s decision on sports and then the final say will be AWSA. I would hope we can be back to skiing by July but who knows.

[jcamp]

The fact that as of right now 20% of respondents are saying that "the issue is over blown" and we should just operate as normal is a big indicator that maybe tournaments, no matter how they are set up, can't be ran safely. If a fifth of people showing up to any given tournament (or movie theater, or gym, etc.) don't recognize the risks and thus aren't doing what needs to be done to keep everyone safe, the efforts of the organizers and everybody else who "gets it" don't matter.

 

 

[disland]

@jcamp using that logic we are all going to be sheltering in place for the next 18 months

[jcamp]

@disland please re-read my post. My point is that if 100% of people take things seriously (maintain social distance, wipe down boat, etc.) then we could be good to go. But if a large percentage of people don't take things seriously (because they think it's overblown or for whatever reasons) then they will not be careful and they will endanger others.

[markchilcutt]

Probably best to write off the 2020 tournament season. Even if you get the OK (whatever that is worth lol) number of participants will be to low to even run the event.

I think people are so pumped full of fear at this point that most will continue to isolate for an extended time coming.

[BraceMaker]

@Rednucleus - I suspect the news reporting has been a bit excessive about what the benefits of antibody testing might be. As you know from being a veterinarian these tests are to show presence of antibodies however we are making a bunch of assumptions about what the value of a positive test might be.

 

The speculation is that a positive test might mean immunity.

 

But it could also be that our antibody test is not specific enough to not recognize an antibody from some previous strain of coronavirus that circulated in the population.

 

A positive test could indicate some level of immunity but we don't know yet if this virus acts similar to cold viruses where despite having some degree of immunity you could become reinfected and either asymptomatically be contagious despite a previous infection or not.

 

Not that I mean this as doom and gloom - Antibody testing very necessary, a rapid onsite active virus test so that a nursing home/hospital/business can detect live infection very necessary. Some form of inoculation is really going to be the solution (and it will not be a homeopathic nettle preparation).

[Horton]

I should have clicked

"we can do tournaments as usual just being extra careful with everyone keeping social distancing, wiping things down etc."

[Horton]

there is a theory that sunlight and heat we'll make the virus much less contagious / drastically shortened its ability to live on surfaces and in the air. We have to protect the vulnerable but I'm kind of leaning towards the healthy among us need to get on with our lives. you have to be smart enough to know that if you're in contact with somebody vulnerable you have to stay out of public but if your social circle is only healthy young-ish people I say rock on (responsibly).

[Not_The_Pug]

I think this is going to come down to legal and insurance. I believe USAWS falls under USOC for insurance. If they are not opening other sports for events, it is unlikely that tournaments will be opened up for us. If the Olympics were postponed this summer, do we really think we are getting back to normal this summer? I hope I'm wrong, but maybe July 1st at the earliest.

[ALPJr]

Lots of sun and warmth in Singapore which went from ‘good job’ a few weeks ago to one of the most new rates per capita per day this week. Hope ballers err on the side of caution.

[Horton]

@Not_The_Pug that is my understanding of what's actually happening

[adkh2oskier]

Just wondering about the safety issues with only a driver in the boat. With a serious skier crash I think that might be an issue. Insurance may have a say in it from a Liability perspective.

[jcamp]

suggests that the USOC thinks water skiing is one of the better prepared sports to re-open due to the fact that we are outside, are a non-contact sport and that our tournaments have relatively small number of participants. So good news.

[dave2ball]

It is unknown how much heat and sunlight affects the virus life. The only thing that will shorten the virus life is ultraviolet light and antiviral mist. Let’s be honest, nobody at a tournament will admit they feel feverish or cough or any other known symptoms because they don’t want to be asked to leave or embarrassed. And they won’t stay home because they have paid a fair amount of money. So what does a tournament director do?

What do safety personal do with jumpers or tricker who get injured after a fall? There goes tour social distance. Can’t wear a mask while swimming. There are so many unanswered questions right now. To say run tournaments like normal would be foolish.

[Bill22]

I hate to admit it but I agree with @Horton. We can what if this thing to death. Put mask on the boat crew and roll on. Assuming C tournaments only at this point.

[skispray]

@Horton "there is a theory that sunlight and heat we'll make the virus much less contagious / drastically shortened its ability to live on surfaces and in the air."

 

Where is the evidence for that?

[BraceMaker]

@skispray -

Heat can kill viruses - if you live in death valley you might be able to rely on that.

UV light can kill viruses - but if the sun emitted that much UV we'd all be dead.

 

I suspect most of this is driven by the seasonality of flu - there are models that Flu transmission is influenced by humidity levels which during the humid summer the droplets may settle out faster. Most have implied this thing survives on surfaces better than flu droplets do.

 

[JeffSurdej]

I started to draft something today. Just spit balling.

 

 

Social Distancing for AWSA Tournaments

 

1) No more then one judge on a tower at once for slalom

 

2) Trick judges must be 6 feet away from each other

 

3) No secretaries for tricks

 

4) Only one VJ operator in jump

 

5) No dock starter unless dock starter is 6 feet away from athlete

 

6) Only one skier on the dock at a time

 

7) Only one judge in boat with driver at a time (jump safety must be done from shore)

 

8) Boat judges must sit to far right of driver as opposed to the middle seat (please have weights to aid in balancing boats)

 

9) Any aspects of the tournament that form alone such as registration or practice should have 6-foot distance indicators

 

10) All scoring or registration trailers should not have more than the required personal needed to run the event, no extra people.

[dave2ball]

@JeffSurdej how are you going to address safety?? If you swim out to an injured skier is the skier infected? Is the swimmer infected?? Where is the social distancing in the boat????? Is USA going to be responsible for infected people showing up and infecting others Due to lack of precautions???? Before you give the go ahead for tournaments you may want to talk with first responders and doctors who have been treating possible infected people. And what precautions are needed. Why isn’t there anything mentioned about masks being worn by judges and drivers? Or temps being taken before the tournament starts and people with symptoms get sent home? It is not as black and white as you may think. Oh and one other thing how is USA going to manage the groups of less then 20 coming together for an event regardless of social distance of 6 feet? Which may be state or county guidelines? Are the towers going to be cleaned when another judge takes over?

What about the boat at crew change? If people want to ski tournaments this year these are steps that need to be taken.

[BraceMaker]

@dave2ball - there is obviously going to be risk there, if you want to mitigate it upon arrival/registration take everyone's temperature. Not perfect, this thing is surely spreading amongst the asymptomatic - but it is a control. That guy running a fever and having a cough that has plunked down money and travelled is now going to be screened and should know he's going to fail the temp screening.

 

In the boat wearing a facemask as a requirement. But thinking here it wouldn't be too hard to make a plexiglass divider between the driver and the judge.

 

For the starting dock - literally have stations 10-15 feet apart on shore above the dock. Only once the skier has left the dock can the next person walk onto the dock. Do groups of 5 - only once the last skier of the first group has gone to the starting dock may the next group of 5 go to the starting stations.

 

Or sites could install alternative starting docks - separated by 20 feet so that skiers could prep on alternating docks - most lakes could accomplish this with docks already on site.

 

I don't particularly think the onsite risk is as high as the travel risk.

 

 

[skigirl]

I think there is a lot of it depends here. There is definitely a balance of a new normal in social distancing and wiping things down/sanitizing practices while we are learning about the disease, individual susceptibility, transmission rates, asymptomatic rates, searching for an effective and safe treatment, working on a vaccine, etc. We still have much to learn. And I think availability to hold tournaments may require flexibility because we likely will have different localized outbreaks. I also think the liability question is tough, or do the releases change so that participants release any organizers, etc, from liability if an outbreak occurs. I am hopeful that individual responsibility will keep people home if they even have the slightest feeling of being unwell. I would stay home if I even had the slightest bit of feeling unwell.

[liquid d]

Time to Throw in the towel, bankrupt the country, ruin the greatest economy since the 50's, bankrupt the world, make the government feed and house everyone....start stockpiling ammo.

[dave2ball]

@BraceMaker you give some great suggestions. And all can be implemented very easy. You are right about travel. It the biggest risk. Jeff Surdej is not looking at the whole picture in my opinion. Every part of the country will be at a different phase of this situation. There is no one answer for the country.

[liquid d]

@JeffSurdej NO SPITBALLING!! not safe!

[MarkTimm]

@dave2ball I respect your opinion and concerns. It is possible to hold a local tournament with social distancing and extra precautions. In terms of liability, we will need an additional waiver regarding the virus. All of us are volunteers and participate in tournaments at our own risk. I suspect there will be some that will determine the risk is too great and will choose not to attend. In terms of safety personnel and Injured skiers, I am a Ski Patroller, before COVID-19 was a concern, BSI (Body Substance Isolation) was mandatory for all incident responses, that hasn't changed. I serve as Chief Safety for many local tournaments and I will continue to do so and adhere to the same level of precautions that I would in any situation. Our Tournaments in the PNW start in June and all indications are that our stay at home orders will be lifted by then, it would be very disappointing if AWSA were to deny us our local tournaments. We can and will conduct them responsibly.

[skierjp]

You Guys do realize that Dave2balls job is on the front line dealing daily with this virus. Also my wife had a telemed conference with her Dr and the Dr got very emotional about the severity of the possibility of our state opening up.

[mmosley899]

The questions about heat, humidity and UV were answered at todays press conference by researchers. Looks like outdoor activities will not be much of a risk if you can practice social distancing. I like Jeff suggestions.

[dave2ball]

@skierjp thanks.

@MarkTimm I’m a safety director at many tournaments In my area and I do know and understand what risks are taken as a volunteer at a tournament. And very well versed on BSI from my job.

 

 

 

[Bill22]

@dave2ball so since it’s not easy we don’t even try to get a plan? Do we lock ourselves inside for 12-18 more months?

[dave2ball]

@Bill22 USA waterski need to develop a plan that will minimize the risk. Take temps have officials in the boat wear masks have hand washing stations plus sanitizers readily available. Nothing like that has been talked about. Jeff has good ideas but he needs to look further into the situation. Every region will be different on how to deal with this virus and tournaments.

[Bill22]

Those are all great ideas. Your other post sounded like it was a lost cause and we should scrap the whole season.

[skispray]

@mmosley899 @BraceMaker @Horton do you have a source? Not sure what press conference you’re referring to but it’d be good to see some data. I’ve read plenty of credible sources saying there’s no evidence that heat/humidity have an impact. I understand the theory and concede that we may learn this is true in time but unless you’re sharing evidence or... something, then how is this not just wishful thinking?

[BraceMaker]

@skispray I'm with you. I can find you probably 100 articles about flu A might be limited by humidity reducing respiratory droplet content on air during summer but nothing for covid. Pure conjecture and speculation about if covid follows flu like transmission.

 

It could be much more air borne like measels.

 

I think that these sorts of speculation are nonsense - hence if you want to move to death valley in summer and walk around nude at full noon maybe the heat and UV will help you. But probably it's because no one else was so stupid

[mmosley899]

@skispray @BraceMaker todays WH press conference reported on scientific testing results involving UV, temperature and humidity on the the spread of the covid virus.

[BraceMaker]

@mmosley899 if you're referring to the comments of Bill Bryan I watched them as well.

 

A few things I note specifically about his presentation.

 

If you listen to it again you will note that he is careful to make very few definitive statements.

 

He used the word inject to mean light into the drum that they're using to investigate the virus. Trump then immediately commented that it would be quite the thing to put that light and inject it into the human body (along with other disinfectants that were discussed later in Bill Bryan's comments. (I was surprised the bleach by the way when he commented that bleach would take 5 minutes of wet contact time to kill covid-19 on surfaces while the CDC has been saying 1 minute)

 

And here's the chart provided

 

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

A few comments on that chart this is listed as the half life of the virus not a "contagious life" In his presentation I am critical of how he used half life (1000,500,250 etc.) As if the disease is gone after a short period of time in humidity and sun)

 

How long at the listed 1.5 minutes does it take for the average respiratory droplet from an infected user coughing into the air to no longer contain enough virus to be infectious? How many virus particles are deposited on contaminated surfaces. How long does the virus survive on skin in these situations?

 

The research itself and the data behind the statements etc. have not been released for review.

 

Hopefully they will be soon to see if their conclusions can be validated. It would be preferable to validate those sorts of comments before making them to the general public.

 

We're now starting to see the outcome of some of the hydroxychloroquine trials reaching what I would consider a resource that can be trusted to deliver reviewed/scientifically proven information

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19-what-do-the-clinical-trials-tell-us/

 

And to be clear - as I mentioned in my prior post to @skispray - there are plenty of articles published about UV Humidity and Influenza A - but the comments in the press conference have not been published or reviewed and are therefore unable to be stated as fact - which Bill Bryan was very careful to walk the line of not stating them to be fact.

 

[The_MS]

One thing to be sure of is that nobody knows crap about C-19. We won’t know anything for another year.

[JeffSurdej]

@dave2ball @liquid d Please note my draft was just that...a very rough draft, I by no means had it all covered nor are indicating that this is the plan, but just as all businesses must start to think about how to reshape their business in this "new" society, we too must start to think about how tournaments might need to be ran in 2020. And yes it will vary by state and perhaps there will be some areas we can not follow CDC guidelines on but its worth starting to think if and how our sport might be able to adapt in states that allow public gatherings.

[jcamp]

Plexiglass between the driver and boat judge seems like a smart, easy move.

[gjohnson]

It will be impossible to hold a regional or national tournaments using social distancing.

[dave2ball]

@gjohnson you may be right about nationals being that it will be at a county run park and there are many PBSO going through the area.

It will be interesting to see what USA waterski comes up with