Connect at the 1st wake or before?

[cragginshred]

A fellow skier was coaching me to wait to connect at the 1st wake to ski back to the handle.

Others I've heard say build the load early to feed an early edge change.

 

Thoughts and rationale?

[KRoundy]

Going to need a lot more here. What does “wait to connect at the first wake” mean? Wha does “connect” mean in this context? Are you skiing open water? Course skiing? What are you trying to accomplish?

[Andre]

Maybe whitewash instead of wake?

[UWSkier]

I'm with Andre. I've heard coaches say ski back almost all the way to the whitewash before you really feel the load, but never all the way to the first wake.

[Than_Bogan]

Purely on it's own, I'd label that advice as wrong. The best skiers build massive speed and leverage well before getting to the first wake. However, if you have some extreme tendency to reach back for the handle too soon and prevent your turn from finishing, it could be a good idea to mentally aim for a target waaay later. Your "coach" may have seen something like that -- or may just not be right. :)

[MISkier]

I seem to recall a quote from Andy Mapple that said something like "the boat doesn't wait for you". I think waiting to connect would run counter to that statement.

[cragginshred]

The advice originally came from Greg Badal.

@Than_Bogan I do, however have the tendency to grab the handle.

 

@MISkier TW said he builds speed early and a gal coached by Maple said he told her the same.

For me to wait a bit is probably better since I like to try and snatch the handle early.

 

The whole idea of waiting is to allow the ski to finish into cross course angle

 

 

 

[Cnewbert]

You won’t go wrong by listening to any number of the outstanding Trent and Rossi “Spraymakers” podcasts where this and similar subjects are addressed many times over.

[Horton]

@cragginshred

 

The idea of waiting until the first wake or first white wash is an exaggeration. Lots of coaches use those words to get skiers to be more patient out of the ball. No one really only leans on the boat at the first white water or first wake. Ideally you should start your edge change at the centerline so if you wait for the first wake to make speed you have about 4 feet to get it done.

 

The reality is that you need to allow the ski to rotate under the line. If you rush the end of the turn you many never achieve angle. The conflicting imperative is that you need to make as much speed as possible from as wide as possible.

 

So let the ski turn all the way and then make speed.

[Zman]

I remember @Chris Rossi telling me to think "turn, turn, turn", to promote progressively building your lean into the white water, and achieve that "possible line" (versus "The Impossible Line"). And, help prevent loading too much, too soon.

When I am skiing well, those rare days, it feels like the boat is picking me up with a tight line just before the white wash.

[cragginshred]

@Horton

Makes total sense. Well put!

[Adam Caldwell]

If the timing with the boat is right, you can connect almost immediately off the ball and have a more progressive load/acceleration into CL allowing for more control what your doing off the second wake.

 

If timing is off, then you are stuck waiting to connect until the boat moves far enough away from you to pull the line tight. At that point, your pull needs to be extremely hard and short to have a chance at building energy before CL. The you'll tend to have to manage the excessive un-loading off the second wake due to lack of swing speed and increased load when you come through CL and second wake.

 

 

[Andre]

@adamhcaldwell Shoud we aim at connecting right off the ball then?

[Adam Caldwell]

@Andre

 

If the timing with the boat is right, meaning the boat is leaving you and taking the line tight as you finish the turn, then you cannot "wait" to connect and therefor would be 'connecting right off the ball'.

 

Timing/position with the boat is the most critical element to be able to 'connect' at the right time.

 

Think of it like this: the further down-course you get connected with the rope, the less "space" you will have before the next buoy. I always focus on setting up my timing and swing with the boat in a way that allows me to get 'connected' in the pull as far up-course as possible after the ball. That means I need to finish my turn as close to the back of the ball as possible. This maximizes the space & time I will have into the next buoy to help me optimize my timing/position with the boat before the finish of the next turn.

 

[A_B]

I think it would be virtually impossible for the average skier to not lean and resist until the wake. You would have to carry enough speed through the turn to get the ski under the line and hold this position in “coast” mode up to the first wake and then take the load from the boat. Can you say Yard Sale??

 

The only time you see this even close, maybe in the white water, is when our elite skiers are on uber short line and stick their turns with speeds us mortals would be soiling our swim trunks with and they get hit by the boat in the whitewater and they still maintain their stack into the wake. My back hurts just thinking about it.

 

Stick to what Horton said. Hold your offhand at your waist until the ski is around and under the rope and then ski your hip and hand to the handle or pull the handle in to your off hand. Reaching across the body is not ideal nor is pulling it into your chest and then down. That is eat slack mode only.

 

AB

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

At 39/41 we are well past a 45 degree position on the boat. During the turning phase it takes longer to be able to get back closer to a 45deg position on the boat - a point where the "pull" will be effective and not counter productive. I think thats why you hear a lot of short line skiers talk about being patient coming back to the handle.

 

BUT, until 38, you are almost always less then 45deg to the boat at apex and there isn't much of a need to wait to start your pull since you will have support from the boat based on the geometry (45deg or less), provided your speed is in check and the line is tight when exiting the ball

[UWSkier]

I think the concept of hooking up as far upcourse as possible makes sense, but for the lay-person, could be mis-applied and result in impatient turns where the ski isn't finishing the turn before hookup, and possibly some Howleyingly funny OTFs.

 

This GIF of @FWinter posted earlier kindof illustrates the point of this thread IMO. He's definitely going faster than the boat when he reaches apex, and he carries that speed around his turn back towards CL. The hookup doesn't come until he's halfway back to the chine spray.

 

 

@JoelHowley tagged just to apologize to what I've done to his last name above. :smile:

[Adam Caldwell]

@UWskier - Take a good look at the rope-angle at the point of hookup. Thats what is improtant. Unless your running 38/39/41, I wouldn't stress on "waiting" to hook up half way back to the wakes. I would be aiming to swing faster, apex earlier, and finish the turn closer to the back of the ball.

 

Connecting to a rope thats greater then 45 deg to the boat will leave you digging a hole. Which is why you see the 'patience' in skiers running extreme shortline. They need to get closer to that 45 before they can load up.

 

Conversely, loading up a rope that is less then 45 deg does nothing but builds speed and acceleration, regardless of where you are in the course.

 

Watch Mapple from the chest cam. You can literally see his hand coming back on the handle at the ball on his 32 and 35 off passes. As he gets into 39/41, this 'connection' happens much further inside the buoy line.

 

Moral to the story - if your timing and position on the boat & course is good, then theres no need to "wait to connect". You only have to wait when the timing is off.

 

[Skierx]

@A_B I am one of those mere mortal skiers at -32/34mph but a huge student of the Grand unified theory of slalom the more efficientlyI applying it the more I find the timing of the boat comes into play the more I see how important zero off or at least Z-box come into play with timing and the boat picking me up off the ball is. I recently skied with pp 9.2 star gazer with no z- box using the same timing technique and found myself waiting on the boat to pick me up off the Bouy , making it a much more difficult pass.