Amazing or Uncomfortable?

[scoke]

It’s refreshing to see two guys step up on lost bets. Still have 1 Welcher outstanding.

 

Let’s go double or nothing!

Your definition of systemic is different then mine for sure.

How about prediction on over/under on scores that were officially downgraded or adjusted at that tournament?

Let’s set the over/under at:13 scores got adjusted. I'll take the over.

 

That sure sounds kind a very high number with a tournament with no major systemic issues doesn’t it?

 

My favorite comment in this thread is “eating our volunteers”. So now accountability, integrity are to be frowned upon while looking at data and agreed to metrics? Sure smells like an ol boys drivers club feeling threatened. versus being open, supportive, taking a breath and saying we have to get better.

 

[Drago]

Um, betting on the list that is already published?

[Chad_Scott]

@scoke. Are you saying that 52% is systemic?

[scoke]

@Drago

 

Not sure what you are talking about. Could you please post "the list" or details from it you are referring? I was just looking at the scores from the tournament compared to typical scores.

[Horton]

@scoke it is in here

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/24987/iwwf-waterski-council-releases-meeting-minutes

[MISkier]

Could be referring to how many will be changed in the list of AWSA scores in the USA Water Ski site. I believe that remains unchanged at this time.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@scoke so “The official reason for why the scores were excluded from the international list is that the end course cameras were not set up within spec.“

 

Yep our definitions of systemic are different so I’ll leave it up to you to decide. If the above reason is “systemic”, I’ll send your beverage of choice. If its not stfu.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield & @scoke

 

this should be a friendly debate about a serious topic. if you read through the notes and look at the attached spreadsheet from the international meeting minutes you will see that the blanket reason for excluding the scores from international was the video cameras but there's a lot of discussion about path and that data is in the spreadsheet.

 

as far as the scores on the USA water ski list I don't know.

 

it has occurred to me that I should not let engineers debate with engineers. it never goes well

[Horton]

@Gloersen have you carefully read the new rules as stated in the minutes from international? I don't think the spreadsheet above contains the right details on how the judges should have handled it but I think everybody needs to read those new rules and try to wrap their head around them.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton I agree and that was the way this started out. But when someone falsely claims, not once but 3 times, that I welched on a bet, it goes beyond the normal friendly banter and just pisses me off.

 

My original point was that a bunch of good performances is NOT by itself an indication of something funny going on. Should it be looked at? Certainly. But there still has not been data, much less proof of any intentional “cheating”.

 

So has anyone actually reviewed a good sample of the boatpath video and determined that the driver consistently favored the skier? If they have I will take a Baller’s word on it.

 

Chirp, chirp, chirp.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton yep debating engineers can be a problem. Too much logic, facts and data instead of good ole emotion :p

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield Given the high percentage of out of tolerance passes has your opinion evolved at all. See the xls.

[lpskier]

@Bruce_Butterfield You are missing the spreadsheet that shows that 52% of passes were out of tolerance and that the driving of one driver was described as “very bad.” Inferior video was not the basis of the downgraded scores.

 

@scoke Please send me half a beer for settling the dispute.

[Horton]

@lpskier

Inferior video was not the basis of the downgraded scores.

 

I believe this to be factually incorrect. The video cameras did not meet the minimum standard. If the boat paths had been acceptable at very least the world records would have likely been denied. The event was not homologated to a Class L/R standard.

[klindy]

@Horton almost everything you said above is speculation.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Now that I dug for the spreadsheet, the data is interesting and I had not looked at it before. Definitely not what one would expect at an event with that level of skiers.

 

So based on the info available, it looks to me to be a combination of:

1. A boat that is difficult to keep straight

2. A driver who is not capable of driving that level. IDK who it was or his abilities.

3. No one watching the endcourae and giving the driver feedback.

 

So, sloppy? Definitely

Intentional? Unknown

Systemic? Given that half the skiers scores were reduced, I’ll concede that. Scoke’s beer will be on the way.

[Horton]

@klindy The video cameras were out of spec. That is not speculation.

[klindy]

@Horton I said almost everything...

 

“f the boat paths had been acceptable at very least the world records would have likely been denied” <— is pure speculation.

 

You’re right, the zoom on the video was not in close enough for the far end buoys for occupy 1/6th of the screen. Since that isn’t in dispute, my question is pretty simple, if that’s unacceptable to confirm that the boat path is IN TOLERANCE ... how it that setup perfectly acceptable to determine the boat path was OUT of tolerance?

 

In other words, doesn’t that call into question all the results in the spreadsheet above?

 

At AWSA we went thru all the passes 11.25’m and shorter (where the EC video requirement is noted in the rules). Multiple people measured each pass and we determined at which point the boat exceeded the 20cm max at each buoy. The scores were reduced to the full buoy prior to then. The officiating crew decided on this resolution based on the rules as if the event was monitored in real time using EC video. This seemed the most fair to all skiers. The PanAm confederation determined that using cumulative deviation was also to be considered.

 

Would the records have been denied due to video zoom? Not sure.

[Horton]

@klindy I think you make really good points. By your logic the whole tournament cannot be accurately be reviewed and should just be downgraded Class C and we should move on.

[Chad_Scott]

@klindy When will these scores be adjusted on the AWSA rankings list? IWSF has already done so!!!

[Jody_Seal]

The Almighty Rankings list!

[Chad_Scott]

@Jody_Seal the almighty!!!!!

[Dirt]

@Bruce_Butterfield dont give in to peer pressure. Send the beer to California so I can drink it outside with a mask on