Amazing or Uncomfortable?

[rico]

I am expecting backlash, Panda and more but... I am surprised this did not make the forum...

 

 

[Mateo_Vargas]

HOs must work good on that lake.

[Horton]

Always uncomfortable with anomalies

[scoke]

Totally uncomfortable. Can you imagine what he felt like to not be the guy on a HO and run a paltry 3@41? And then miss 39 will everyone else ran pb’s. Oh my!!

[Horton]

@scoke if somebody was to do the analysis I believe they will find anomalous scores in all divisions & on all brands of skis.

 

It would be awesome if somebody besides me would do this analysis. I am already a pariah in much of Europe and would like to be welcome in my own country.

 

@rico I'd be willing to bet you a bottle of Macallan 18 that these score stand. If there's anything I've learned in the last couple of years it is that National and International officials are rarely able or willing to take corrective action.

[LeonL]

Some pretty tall scores.

[Horton]

It should surprise no one that the rumor mill is on FIRE at the moment. This event has caught the attention of everyone who skis internationally - pros and amateurs alike. I have heard from may of the worlds elite skiers and officials in the last few days. Perhaps this will not be swept under the rug.

 

The impact of the this one event can easily be seen by searching for the event id (21S034R) on the Dynamic World Standings page http://www.iwsftournament.com/homologation/idopenslalomweeklydisplay.php?listdate=2020-10-13

 

If these scores are legit or not - this episode is that last straw as far as I am concerned. The International standings lists based on scores does no longer work. We need to move to a model where international standings depend on how a skier places against his or her contemporaries. I expect the entrenched bureaucracy to reject my proposal but I am working on it anyway.

[jcamp]

The problem with a ranking system based on who you beat is that some people just don't have access to tournaments with other top competitors due to where they live, financial resources, etc. I would like to think that if some dude can run deep 41s, but maybe doesn't have the $ or time to travel that they still get their due.

[Horton]

@jcamp that would be great if everyone respected the standards. They do not so the current system is deeply flawed.

[rico]

What is the point of being ranked top 10 in the world if it is half bullshit and someone who can run a legit 41 is competing with someone who runs 6 buoys less but ends up with the same score?

There I said it...

 

This is why a lot of the top skiers prefer podiums and winning events over ranking.

 

@Horton is it why Elite ranking was introduce?

[Horton]

@rico I can only speculate the origins of the elite system. At this point it is the better of the two lists. I still I'm conflicted about weighting the events based on cash prize.

[bigtex2011]

I buying an HO today

[rico]

It will also be interesting because a world record was set at the event...

[Than_Bogan]

I'm a total hypocrit, because as a competitor I really loved the Rankings List -- the opportunity to compare myself to everyone else while just attending whatever tournaments I felt like.

But as a fan, I barely care what these top pros do on their own somewhere. I want to see them compete. Every site is different, so I'm actually much more impressed by Regina's incredible streak of 6 victories at Swiss Slalom than I am by her world record.

If somebody can run -41 on their home site, don't get me wrong -- I'm impressed! But I'm even more interested in what they can do in a real competition against the other insanely talented skiers.

 

So, against my better judgment, I find myself strongly agreeing with @Horton's position on this one.

[rico]

@Than_Bogan I find it very funny that you brought up Regina's world record...

 

As for the ranking list, how would you feel if you did not make it to the US Masters or lost a sponsor because other skiers got Mickey Mouse scores somewhere else?

 

What if the point of having all these rules and bullshit if it does not mean anything?

[schafer]

So because 2 guys who are capable and have done it before run a few 41’s behind arguably one of the best drivers in the world we immediately question the integrity of the tournament?

[rico]

@schafer no but it is always the same story... One skier does really really well one round (fine) vs one skier does really really well 2 rounds (humm) vs one skier does really very well 3 rounds (what?)...

 

Now 2 skiers do really really well 3 rounds and more skiers PB (WTF)...

 

At the end of the day look at all these skiers scores at the previous tournaments and their scores at the following tournaments.

[schafer]

@rico sure. You and I have good tournaments and bad tournaments. Even the pros have good and better days. I mean their bad days are less glaring than mine.

I know personally for me. Some days the same lake. Same boat. Same driver feels hard. Other days. All the same things. Even same conditions and it just comes together and feels “easy”

Travers is a perfect lake maybe there is less pressure than even say at Swiss last weekend. Even the hacks like myself will most likely score better under less pressure, although I can still screw it up on any given day... but I like my chances better under less pressure.

Maybe this is more a ranking system issue in your eyes. And if so then we are debating 2 different things.

Doesn’t mean that the course isn’t perfect there. Judging on point. And chris driving. I chaulk it up to great skiing on that day.

 

 

[MattP]

Are we talking about JT, Ashers and Jamie’s scores here? It’s pretty much all their home sites. It was not a pro event it was a backyard midweek record. It was relaxed and well run I’m sure. One of the few places JT and Asher have run 41 in the past. I heard all 3 were training together for at least a week leading up to the event. Check the survey and boat ecv video if you want. I’m sure it’s kosher.

 

No wonder pros don’t come to this site too often. We piss on their parade when they do well.

[Horton]

@mattp & @schafer

The impact of the this one event can easily be seen by searching for the event id (21S034R) on the Dynamic World Standings page http://www.iwsftournament.com/homologation/idopenslalomweeklydisplay.php?listdate=2020-10-13

 

 

[MattP]

@Horton I understand.

 

Remember the dynamic list is not used for anything its just nice to have at current time. The bi-yearly IWWF static list is still used for worlds and the like. Both lists only take 1 score from the sanction. Doing it multiple times is moot. They also had the same score each time they got into 43. Regardless if they did it once or four times its still worth the same.

 

 

[rico]

@MattP Nothing against JT, I admire him as a skier and I am thrilled when he does well. I also know he can certainly run 41, but How many tournaments (even backyard R) did he run 41 in the past 5 years?

 

 

 

[MattP]

Will Asher has run into 43 7 times since 2016. At Hancock, Trophy, Botas x2, Swiss, Travers x3. Pretty much does it once a year.

 

Jon Travers has run into 43 5 times since 2013. At Travers x3, Swiss & Botas. Has 2 6 no continuations at 41 from Travers.

 

Home site has its advantages!

[scoke]

Pretty strong statement here "Check the survey and boat ecv video if you want. I’m sure it’s kosher."

 

Really? You've reviewed it, plotted the boat path video of the OM rounds and approved it?

Ok not reviewed it but personally talked with the person that has?

OK not talked with them, have you pulled the video from awsa south and casually checked it out?

Ok not even seen the video but are just talking from vague and general experience?

OK never been there but just pulled this out of your arse?

 

You reviewed the TC report checking all course homologation as well?

 

"I'm sure"? based on what again?

 

Sounds like you are so sure you could make a wager!! @MattP

[Horton]

@MattP forget about the open skiers. How many other skiers changed their international ranking at that event? Like I said before I'm hoping somebody else will do the real analysis but when I pull up that Dynamic list and do a search for the event ID the page lights up

[rico]

Exactly so Asher ran almost 50% of his 41 in one tournament

and same for Travers (remember the scores at Swiss and Botas were also under scrutiny)

[MattP]

@scoke more tongue and cheek, BUT we the people no longer have access to the ECV dropbox or I would have already looked.

I know the driver and I trust his abilities.

I know the site and I trust them to run a legit event. They are home to world championships & MLCQ among other high profile events.

 

If there is something hinkey going on the powers that be should look into it and then downgrade or let the scores stand. All the appointed officials are reputable. Until there is evidence against the scores I have no problem backing them and the officials. This is the USA you are innocent until proven guilty.

[lazzn]

At the enormous risk of a panda/making a fool of myself on the internet:

 

Was there not a pending world record set at this tournament? That means (at least a little bit of) it must be reviewed(not to mention all of the homologation). Why are we bothering to do the sport of tournament skiing if people cannot ski well without it suddenly being "something was intentionally wrong". What's the point of having R events anymore. Should we just start classifying tournaments by how close to perfect their homologation dossier is? Why don't we just have one site where all of the tournaments happen, it can be nobody's home site and it can be remeasured after every skier. It can use super high res EC cameras and Surepath, and we can throw out scores with out of tolerance paths before they're even posted. Will that finally be enough?

 

Is the problem here simply that the process isn't fast enough and scores that did occur with unfair conditions get posted and then pulled when they have been reviewed later? Without real actual information about the tournaments themselves this kind of argument is nothing but harmful.

 

As an aspiring TC (and driver) that spends a little too much time looking at the rule books, it seems to me that the tolerances for everything are fine. Pushing them is not worth it because at some point it will go wrong. The process for these tournaments should catch anything that's wrong. To suggest that we are letting things through this many times is to suggest an impossibly large scale of collusion, or that a lot of senior officials are incompetent.

 

As for the rankings list, am I the only one looking at it who finds that (looking on the surface without doing statistics) a vast majority of the scores from that tournament which affected the list are not that much different than other scores? Sure some were fairly above average, but what's to say that there isn't some other qualitative bias at play here for many of the lower ranking scores that were above average. As I recall earlier in the summer, many skiers who normally had high averages in other seasons had a low dynamic ranking list average because they simply had not been to many tournaments. Many of them were still training like normal though, and when they did find themselves at an R event they beat their scores by a great margin. Is this to be considered an anomaly? Especially in a year where many skiers season was drastically different than normal, it is important to consider what else could cause this.

[MattP]

@Horton to answer your question.

29 Slalom skiers (Out of 34 on the list) according to the ranking list posted 1 of their top 5 scores in a R/L in the rolling 12 months as of today.

16 of those was their top score to the list.

of those 9 have 5 scores on the list, 1 have 4 scores, 4 have 3 scores, 2 have 2 scores, 0 have 1 score

11 of those was their 2nd top score to the list.

1 of those was their 3rd top score to the list.

1 of those was their 4th top score to the list.

0 of those was their 5th top score to the list.

 

The data is HERE

Scorebook HERE

[MISkier]

@MattP, it looks like 19 have that score as either their top score or tied with their top score. 8 have it as the next best score.

[MattP]

@MISkier Yes. I have updated the sheet. Thanks.

[Horton]

@MattP how often do you think 21 out of 34 skiers meet or exceed their best score of the year at a single event? Or how many times in history has anyone besides Smith run 41 3 times in a row?

 

I've heard a lot of speculation from some pretty famous people in the sport but I have no freaking idea what happened there. There's not a single skier or official involved in this event who I would be comfortable accusing of anything. The fact is that the results are extraordinary and extremely anomalous.

 

 

[scoke]

@MattP

 

Ok great, you sure are pounding the stake in the ground on this topic. Especially when you didn't crawfish on the "are you sure" stance being proven flat out wrong but just laughed it off. Seems like you have a vested interest in this when and are not wavering.

 

Let's make it fun: IPA shipped through Hortons sponsor site he was referencing (within reason) to the winner of the wager, his choice.

Wager:

1 or more of the scores will be invalidated. 1-12 pack IPA

if a whole round is invalidated 2-12 packs IPA

 

 

[MattP]

@scoke again innocent until proven guilty.

 

You must know something that I don’t. I have zero invested interest in this event or the site.

 

I am just a bystander/skier/judge who thinks that just because people ski great we shouldn’t question their performance or the officials. Seems to be so common these days on this website. There should be a system of checks and balances. We have PanAm judges that are making sure IWWF rules are followed and we used to have out of region judges at record events to have another set of eyes on things. Should all L/R events be reviewed by a 3rd party TC & ECV Review or just the ones people on the internet think are off?

 

Unless you or @Horton or whoever are going to come out and say you heard the driving was all over the place or the course was set narrow, long or the ropes were long then we should let the scores be what they are until they now more than likely will be reviewed. Let's hear the accusations instead of just saying that these skiers are incapable of these scores.

 

I will be more than happy to send you and Horton beer if I am wrong. I'm sure a score or two may be thrown out due to driving tolerances but let's see if the 3 big players get their scores to stand. I will be the first to say I was wrong.

 

I attend a few weekday tournaments a year that are run with a RC course, current boat and more than capable officials that usually turns out many PBs or close to it over the course of 3 rounds. To me it's the atmosphere that allows this. They are usually laid back no rush rush rush to ski and it allows the skier to perform at their highest.

[rico]

@MattP I’m with you but you have to admit that it’s a bit weird that Asher runs 41 3 times and JT almost 3 times in the same tournament and everyone is like whatever, business as usual.

 

No?

[Than_Bogan]

@scoke You seem to be direct, confrontational, and cantankerous. I don't know you personally, but I'd like to! :)

[lpskier]

Every boat path 38 off and shorter in an L/R tournament is submitted for review. If anything is amiss, it will be addressed. Sadly, if things aren’t amiss, no one actually comes out and says so. The information won’t be a matter of general knowledge and so tongues will continue to wag.

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@lpskier all paths are supposed to be submitted but it is my understanding that they are not always submitted in a timely manner and that there are far too many hours of video for it all to be reviewed.

[Rpc29]

@Than_Bogan great SAT word of the day with cantankerous.

 

@Horton For a record tournament, aren't all boat paths reviewed on site live? From the rulebook: "The Chief Judge will assign an end-course Judge to monitor the end-course video and award re-rides on the following criteria:"

 

Given the amount of scrutiny a score that high generates if something was up when they reviewed it onsite I'd imagine they wouldn't have submitted the score?

 

 

[RichardDoane]

@Rpc29 - but you only get a re-ride if the boat path was not in your favor

[Rpc29]

@RichardDoane From the rulebook: "If the boat pylon deviates more than 20cm from the centre of the course at the approximate position where the skier is passing each buoy, an optional re-ride shall be awarded if the path of deviation was a disadvantage to the skier unless the skier makes a complete pass. A mandatory re-ride shall be required if the path of deviation was an advantage to the skier. It shall be considered an advantage if the boat pylon deviates outside the 20cm toward the buoy that the skier is attempting to get around. It shall be considered a disadvantage if the boat pylon deviates outside the 20cm away from the buoy that the skier is attempting to get around."

[skispray]

I just want a pro tour where, at the end of the season, there’s a champion who has earned that title by skiing consistently better than their competitors at the same events, with the season being long enough to make random chance an unlikely contributor to success over the series. The boat path for every skier is reviewed so we know the scores are legitimate per the rulebook. This is how you determine who is the best of the best. I want that title to be the most prestigious accomplishment in water skiing. I want a livestream available for every event in the series. A real pro tour that legitimately determines where everyone stands because everyone participates and fights for the title because it means the most of anything. @Horton if you’re going to work to change the sport at the pro level, I submit that you should put some effort on this idea.

[liquid d]

I never understood the giant deal with the list (except the Masters Tourney- which should let more in anyway in slalom).

BUT... I also find it a bit cringeworthy that everyone jumps on 2 of the best skiers in the world running 41. For those not named Nate, there are about 5 sites conducive to running the very best slalom scores IMO. I"m sure there are others...but Travers, Isles back lake, Boris's, Trophy, and i here Botas are at the top of them....absolutely no backwash, bouys always pulled to tolerance, boats with 1/2 tank or less. On top of that, the water temp and conditions were perfect and a home site (visual cues so familiar are nice to have). I always give the benefit to a skier. I hope both of them run it again this fall. Fantastic skiing.

[liquid d]

typo hear/here.

[MattP]

@rico yes and no. Again it's JT, Jamie and pretty much Will's home site. If it was at Okee, Trophy, Bennetts, Bel Aqua, Shortline, Ski West, Cottonwood, Aquaplex where these skiers do not go frequently I would be way more suspect even though they are all world class sites.

 

[Horton]

Guys this thing is not really about JT and Asher. Everyone noticed because of them. Nearly 1/2 the skiers skied at or near a personal PB. That just does not happen in this sport. It impacts the world standings for all age groups and may impact who gets to go to Jr or Sr Worlds.

[lpskier]

@liquid d What’s Little Mountain? Chopped liver?

[liquid d]

OMG, i can't believe i left off LITTLE MOUNTAIN!!! But , I may have subliminally been trying to keep that one to myself. Yes, absolutely no backwash and perfect conditions...haha!

[teammalibu]

One day the GOAT ran 41 all 3 rounds at Cedar Ridge at 55k i need to find that video!

[ALPJr]

Funny, wasn’t this hub bub when Kjellander and Mapple, and Grahm and Mapple set records on the same lakes, on the same weekends, at the Thilla at Hydrilla tournaments and there were thousands of peeps on the shoreline with TV cams rolling.