Reinvent my onside

[matthewbrown]

We are agreeing with everything once again, I think the discrepancy might not be in what the body is doing, rather what the ski is doing. You are talking about letting the ski smear well before the buoy and I’m talking about waiting longer to conserve all my smear, which I can do effectively if I’m on top of the ski. Mapple loses his connection into 2 ball once he allows the ski to shoot out in front of him during the transition pitching him on the tail in a steeply banked turn. This is not what Nate does. Nate doesn’t allow the ski to pitch out that far and be that banked until he is well inside the turning arc. He does this by staying flatter on the ski for longer and then pitching the ski out to the shoreline at the last minute which simultaneously allows his body to lead through the turn. It allows him to adjust errors that an earlier smear like Mapple’s would not allow. Again, Mapple is Mapple but he’s not doing it the ideal way. He is into 1,3,5 it’s a completely different and efficient turn as he waits to smear the ski until the last minute. Again, I’m sure we are splitting hairs and your idea of the perfect smear is only a couple feet earlier than mine. A sit down session in sunny Ca would be great. You are skiing so well in cold ass Washington, come down here and have some fun.

[gavski]

Damn.....now I know what to look for, I can see it - or not if you look at my skiing...watching the Joel Poland video again has been enlightening...as are the Joel howley videos...I think I can see more clearly now what they are doing off the 2nd wake....

[jimbrake]

@matthewbrown - I’m self-inviting.

[RGilmore]

@adamhcaldwell Yeah, I get it about "flailing your [outside] arm with no actual intention". In fact, my personal beliefs about counter rotation can be summed up in two points: 1) successful counter is accomplished by driving your inside hip forward over your front foot, not by pulling your outside shoulder back, and 2) counter rotation is an action, not a position. I don't have any particular "science" to back those things up, but they are what works for me.

[6balls]

@rgilmore agree. Inside hip forward, yeah shoulders pretty level, but chest down course cuz you gotta get high.

I wish I knew this stuff when I was young....

 

Cool discussion...I'm probably not quite good enough to play but it's cool for progression and knowledge of how to get this stuff done through body mechanics and physics, rather than just through physicality which was my over dependence.

[Adam Caldwell]

...

 

[Horton]

Since i last checked in on this subject I have worked on a number of things and improvements have been made.

 

First and foremost I am now working to keep my shoulders from moving to the inside at edge change. This keeps my feet from advancing ahead of my mass and putting me on the back of the ski. This also helps keep the roll angle of the ski flatter as I arc out to the ball. This helps with both below concepts.

 

The second focus is move my upper mass up and forward all the way to apex.

 

Third is the effort to keep two hands on the handle extra long so when I do release my feet will swing left, rolling the ski over so it will then immediately carve right back under the line. ( Brooke Baldwin does this extremely well )

 

Forth is some crazy crap @AdamCord told me that I am saving until I can do the above 3 consistently.

 

Three things is a LOT so I am trying to tackle them in parts. Learning all three at once is a bit too much.

[Horton]

Update:

I am not there yet but I feel good about this

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQ9LBg9DD0h/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

As soon as I get to purple the old habits sneak back in

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQ9LRijjhPy/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Zman]

Great skiing @Horton . Nice improvement. I also like how you are very patient at the buoys, waiting to drop into your turn when you feel the moment is right, and the boat/rope will be there for you.

At least it looks like you are patient. B)

 

[Zman]

@Horton Curious which "old habits" you feel creep back in at 38? Maybe more emphasis to move hips in direction of your ski out of the onside turn?

[Zman]

@Horton You may find that this insightful ski tip

helpful for your current focus, especially focus items 2 and 3?

[Zman]

@Horton I was not thinking that. I was just thinking Rob's tip starting at about 3:35 would help with "move my upper mass up and forward all the way to apex". He talks about "moving the handle with you" as you approach the buoy line.

And, to my untrained eye, it appeared your hips moved in the direction of the ski out of your turn a little better at 35 than 38 for onside.

on this as well. Talks about the "input" needed (starting at 2:38) at the top of the pendulum to initiate the move back inside and create the energy needed to flip edge early and swing up high on the other side. But, it also looks like you do those last two things very well. I watch your videos to help with my improvement on this.

[jayski]

Your not moving through the turn, you do it in your earlier passes too but as the line gets shorter it becomes more pronounced...just my $0.02

[Horton]

@jayski I believe you but I don't know what you mean :-)

[mrpreuss]

You have no handle control. The difference between you and most top pros is they advance on the boat and pull themselves up in the transition/preturn.

Watch Nate carefully, from shore video is best. You can watch Terry, Dane, old videos of Asher when he was killin' it....

You MUST "keep the elbows/handle in to your vest in the transition and pre-turn.

 

MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST

 

What does that mean for a lifetime skier like you who has never focused on that completely???

 

It should be the only thing you work on or think about now.

Skiers will not tell you this way, if they have always done it, it may be easy for them now because of their lifetime of applying this and you will need to work hard on it.

Everything else is fine and no need to worry.

 

Try this: think PULL on the handle as you transition and into the pre-turn.

 

think PULL on the handle as you transition and into the pre-turn.

 

as hard as you can.. as hard as you can.. as hard as you can..

 

you will find your vision, contol, position and precision like never before.

Everything slows down

 

you can practice on land or boat by doing pull ups from a leaning/pulling position up into the pre-turn with a handle.

 

You have never really done it so it is a big change.

It happens in a split second, watch videos of those skiers mentioned earlier.

 

It is there if you pay attention it is clear

 

It is the biggest difference from good amateurs to the top pros

 

think of nothing else

 

 

[Drago]

⬆️And there you have it ?

[Horton]

@drago really?

[Drago]

Apparently, @Horton

[matthewbrown]

If I had 100 different options for people to determine what they should do at the edge change, the very last one on my list would be to pull on the handle as hard as I possibly can.

1. How would one even know when to start pulling on handle?

2. Why is pulling on the handle that much better than the myriad of other options I may have at my disposal?

3. If I pull on the handle as hard as I can, what changes for the better or for the worse with my body position?

4. Should I even worry about my relationship to the boat or my body as it relates to the ski, or should I just let all that go and just pull on the handle as hard as I can?

5. Where should my ski and body be in relation to one another after a hard pull up of the handle?

6. Could I make easier and smaller changes that would be much more beneficial to me than ripping on the bar as hard as I can?

 

 

These questions need answers before we can make any type of assessment about what to do with the handle. Many times what you see from the pros on the shore, is not what they are doing at all. Horton actually has plenty of handle control, that is not the issue. The issue is having his body in the right place at the right time in all parts of the course so that if he ever is slightly off, he can readily address the smaller minute adjustments (handle control, too much parallel speed, too narrow). Etc

[AdamCord]

@matthewbrown not to mention the fact that the load at that point is going to be what…300+lbs? I know @Horton is pretty jacked but I don’t know if he can curl that.

[matthewbrown]

@AdamCord I’m afraid he’s going to have to severely cut back on the Cutty Sark for that plan to work.

[mrpreuss]

Let him try

 

[richfoster]

I don’t know about you guys,but I still like watching NEW videos of Asher. There’s only about a gadzillion of us that wish we could kill it the way he still does. I know off topic ,but it needed to be said!

[Horton]

@matthewbrown who drinks Cutty Shark anyway?

[Horton]

@mrpreuss I am 100% sure your post is sincere and well meaning but I have to agree with @matthewbrown. I do a lot of stuff wrong. I could benefit from keeping the handle a bit tighter but that would not solve my core issues.

[jayski]

@Horton you seem to be focusing on your body position SOOOOO much into the buoy that you're pretty stagnant through the turn, you move your weight enough to engage the ski enough to start the turn but there you stay...statuesque...

 

carving the path with your lead hip, continuing to move ahead will help facilitate smoother turns and get rid of that hitch ya got going on...you do it both sides, just shows more as you shorten the rope

 

A (super smart and in my mind not revered enough) coach was explaining to me this spring about being ahead of your feet (tried to simplify but poor words to ty and describe the thought)...I don't think I can explain it in words to do it justice as he could...

 

Plus It's a lot of conversation that I have zero desire to try and type out lol

[mrpreuss]

Without even tryin........

You tried everything else

Change the thread name

Matt has been doing it his whole life, you, NOTHING

You don't even know how weak you are there.

Everything else is fine.

Matt said the same thing differently.

Everything happens then, the rest is easy till 39

Try it fool,

YOU HAVE TRIED EVERY OTHER DAMN THING

What do you have to lose?

I am saying it so you get it and have a holy shit moment of enlightenment

It happens in a split second but changes everything

Wach the videos, It is there

 

Everyone disliked the truth about the mens world record never being broken,

You'll see, it will never change. I was right then and I am right now too

 

[mrpreuss]

 

This is not his gate, see the spray fom the previous bouy.

 

This does not happen by accident.

 

Two hands to the front, arms straight to the front of the ski, the ultimate in leveraged handle control if you understand it, what and why.

 

I am saying make a significant effort there, everything happens in the preturn, the turn and pull are automatic for most

 

I told you those who do it don't understand how you just don't get it.

In most cases, they downplay it but it is there, and you have never ridden the line out

[gavski]

I know what @mrpreuss is saying as I see it too. Brooke Baldwin the the most obvious skier that comes to mind. You can see, what looks like to me, her ‘pulling’ herself over her ski during the Pre turn..this is where she ends up - on both sides..

 

https://us.v-cdn.net/5017617/uploads/editor/le/z6d1bn8fcmaf.jpeg

 

Watch Joel Hopley in slowmo..

 

 

I, like Horton, am trying to reinvent my skiing and I have identified that the key difference between good club skiers and pros is what they do from the wake to ball..all of ‘us’ look the same, all of ‘them’ look the same..hence why 38’off and shorter requires a vastly different way of skiing, which most of ‘us’ haven’t learnt..

 

I am not that interested in the mechanics of turning, because if you get the the ski in the right place, everything else becomes natural and automatic…you become a different skier without even thinking..@hortons 35’off pass was very impressive and a huge improvement. His move off the 2nd wake into 2-4 is exactly the area that I am working on.

[AdamCord]

@mrpreuss @gavski The problem is you guys are looking at the result of what the skier is doing with their body positioning, which is they end up with the handle pinned to their body in the preturn, and you're not seeing what allowed them to get the handle there in the first place. Yes, at the earlier rope lengths when the loads are light and you can transition early, you probably can pull the handle in and get some amount of benefit out of it. But as the rope gets shorter your transition will happen later, the loads will increase, and you'll find that what was working great at 32off goes out the window.

 

The question to ask is what are all these top skiers doing with their feet, hips, COM, etc. that lets them land in the preturn with the handle so tight to their body even at 39 and 41? I promise it is not pulling in as hard as they can on the handle. The process starts before the 1st wake.

[skibug]

@AdamCord is spot on.......you can't do what the pros are doing unless you get the connection and acceleration into the 1st wake.....that is what I have been saying for a long time. So, it all starts at the gate and 1 ball execution.

[gavski]

@AdamCord - ok, so please enlighten me..I can’t find anyone who has been able to explain to me what or how I should be achieving this…occasionally I will nail the ‘movement’, but I felt ‘nothing’ other than everything felt easy and wide..sadly, I can’t recreate ‘nothing’.

 

My principles and goals are 100% aligned with yours..but, as it was explained to me by a big dawg skier…’once you work out what you need to do off the 2nd wake, your short line skiing will be unlocked’..

 

Bad Gav can run btb 35’ @36..and when the stars and moon are in alignment I can get 4-5 @38..good gav doesn’t like the way bad Gav skis and wants to change his movement through the wakes out to the buoy…

[AdamCord]

@gavski we covered it extensively in this thread https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/22661/connection-and-swing/p1

[Dano]

Read the link @AdamCord posted above then go free ski and try to get high on the boat with a tight line while keeping the handle in tight to your hip. You'll quickly realize "pulling" the handle in does not work. I'm not a short line skier and I probably am terrible at executing what Adam is talking about, the little bit of improvement i have made in this regard has for sure improved my skiing.

 

[Horton]

@jayski there is some wisdom in your above post. That is not my current focus but it's on my to-do list and something I've heard from some pretty elite guys.

[mrpreuss]

RE-READ THIS PART:

 

 

(you will find your vision, contol, position and precision like never before.

Everything slows down)

 

 

I am surprised by the quit without even trying

 

It happens in the transition early as part of the outbound movement.

 

Everyone is weighing in, They all say the same thing in different ways.

 

 

 

EVERYTHING GREAT HAPPENS IN THE TRANSITION/EARLY EDGE CHANGE.

 

 

Print it, read it, bring it with you on the boat.

 

at least try, see the difference.

 

Why can The better skiers run 39 and it looks so easy?

 

Adam and Matt,

 

Adam, as a crative thinker, I am surprised you don't see it for someone who is so smart.

 

Andy, Jeff and Lucky prove it can be done in Horton style.

Never running the impossible 41 @ 36 like Nate

 

u are both far better skiers the myself.

I never ran 39 in a tournament, only 4.

I skied against Andy

once at 34.

I ran 2 @ 39, he ran 4 @ 43 in charleston.

 

You MUST see it as someone who does not get it.

I asked Jamie, "I run 38 at 34, you run 39 at 36. What is the difference?"

 

Before confusing me with the truth, he said EVERYTHING!!!!

 

It took a few months to undestand and visualize it for myself.

This is how I explain it to myself. Horton needs the light bulb lit

 

I am surprised you don't REALLY LOOK,

Jamie was one of the strongest, he was a overskier and studied to apply physics to his technique

 

Nate swings his back away from the boat when he applies it. It's there

 

His quote as I remember from the notes "Jamie"

 

"Two hands to the front, arms straight for maximum leverage"

 

"almost like a double counter rotation"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AdamCord]

@mrpreuss maybe I misunderstood what you were describing before…

 

Can you describe what is it you see in those pics and how do you achieve it?

[Horton]

@mrpreuss

if you're saying "resist separation" that is different than pulling the handle in. I don't think anybody disputes the importance of resisting separation.

 

In those pictures above Smith is doing more than just resisting separation. He is keeping his shoulders level and upper mass tall off the water. The roll angle of his ski is relatively flat and so on. I don't think any one of these things works without the other. The idea of pulling the handle in doesn't make sense to me.

[Horton]

@mrpreuss I'm guessing that your scores into 39 were in the era of perfect pass. If so we've all learned a lot since then and it's not the same game anymore.

[MISkier]

When I hear the description of "pulling the handle in" in the context of the transition going into the pre-turn, I think more of the old Wim Decree video. There is a movement happening at centerline that some might interpret as pulling the handle in. I've always interpreted it as advancing the ski forward through the transition and into the preturn. You do see maximum resistance on the handle at that point, but I don't really see him pulling his arms in or even bending them for that matter. That said, there is something he is harnessing from the swing at that point to transition with the ski out in front and obtain more space before the ball.

[mrpreuss]

This thread i s for Horton and alikes, My respect for you guys running 39 cannot be overstated.

 

Matt just add there some.

 

Matt, You do it, and you always have, you are stong there so it is natural.

You can still gain by adding there.

 

Horton, like myself never just got it, I had to learn it.

When I figured out the difference, I had to switch to a toe plate because I was pullig up the velcro and then ripping screws out of the ski rear binding in the back from such a powerfull move.

I finally was able to take the winter off and pick it right back up, just like th pros.

No more long sets with better feel and results. 4 or 5 pass sets 3 times a week.

 

 

Please stick to what I said.

 

Think PULL during the transition with 2 hands

 

I never said pull in on the handle.

 

Think PULL during the transition

 

Instead of doing almost nothing on a loose line into the turn,

 

You advance on the boat and gain the control with the connection to the boat

 

This is done with strength and power.

 

It is NOT a result or what just happens. It is POWER during the transition/preturn

 

A typical great skier smooths everythig out.

It won't be so obvious like Jamie.

 

Think of the connection this way, pulling up on the side of the boat at the end of the lake.

 

 

Mr Quick to dismiss, you could not be more wrong with speed control

 

Zero off is PERFECT. My dream throttle GOES WHEN I GO, Releases when I do.

I will never forget the first time riding in the boat and hearing the power being Perfectly applied, even on the pull out for the gates.....

How did they make it Exactly as I dreamed and the way I drove it??

I should get royalties, I thought of it first, well done Andy, it is PERFECT

 

Perfect pass was terrible, ALWAYS too late. I used a slalom switch set to a high # of 30 or so.

Trying to make Zero off before Zero off.

Especially the GPS version, how could it be any worse??? Dunno, Just keep changing that crap, for me, a very unhappy marrige for me but the only choice during that era

 

I moved away from skiing beginning with my divorce in 2010 or so, Nothing at all in it for me then, and now. Like most amateurs, I suppose.

 

Pretty much quit skiing in 2014, probably skied a dozen or so sets in 14 & 15,

Perhaps a half dozen in 16. Not skiing I am a few @ 38 guy, only need 1 round.

 

I have not skied since states in 2016, I skied far far less than anyone I have ever heard of.

Why was it still just there?

I saw the light

see notes above, I believe, I believe

 

Yes it happens faster and stonger as the rope shortens, even harder to spot then.

 

I came so close to deleting the siple info with all the uproar, dismissal and shock.

What do I gain by enlightening the the readers? absolutely nothing

 

Don't overthink it, just think Pull at the transition. it is that simple.

 

Horton, please let me know your reults

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ALPJr]

From my novice perspective, I’ve been studying videos of Terry, Nate and Brooke, and thinking about keeping my elbows pinned to my vest after the second wake while standing tall coming into the buoy. Just a few times this season I have felt the sensation of a ‘pull’ during the transition which was followed by more width and time than I would normally get. Again I’m not even close to the elite level of others in this thread, and think that @mrpreuss has a unique explaination of something that is elusive for many.

[Stefan]

@adamhcaldwell on this subject from the "Connection and Swing" thread. Isn't this close to what @mrpreuss is saying @AdamCord ?

 

"adamhcaldwell Posts: 773 Open or Level 9 Skier

February 2020 edited February 2020

 

If you successfully create the energy in the downswing to CL, and time the release and elevate your COM through CL, THEN the next focus is to keep that handle as close to your body as as humanly possible while you continue to elevate the handle (and your COM) higher off the water in the preturn.

 

From CL out, look to bring the handle progressively from the bellybutton upwards toward the shoulders until you feel that ski starting to go nearly parallel with the course (meaning the ski has 'preturned' underneath you) before you release the outside hand from the handle.

 

This will make sure your body is continuing to actively swing around the pylon while the ski rotates into the turn up course of the buoy.

 

Note: If you don not make an effort to "elevate your COM" through CL, then trying to keep the handle close to your body will take a ton of effort in your arms, and is a huge sign your missing it. Your forearms will burn. Must be rising through CL first and keeping the handle close should be almost "easy" in comparison."

[chaloux]

I appreciate all the information and perspectives in this thread. It can take me a while to translate all of the terms and movements described by different people in different nuanced ways into practical information my brain can understand and then apply to my skiing.

 

There are a few things I'm going to try out in future sets - strong position/connection with the rope (as per the other thread), inside hip leading, and being on top of the ski. There are other elements described here that I'd like to work on, but I'm just going to focus on a few things to start and go from there.

 

I think I understand what @mrpreuss is saying and I actually think you guys are all agreeing, lol. But that's just me sitting on the sidelines. Watching a clear, smooth, HD, zoomed in video like the one posted above of Joel really makes things, which I've glazed over in other discussions because I couldn't picture things with my mind's eye, stand out .

[Adam Caldwell]

The proper trajectory off the second wake is what is going to make or break your ability to stay connected during the swing. The timing you set with the boat before the gate turn-in governs your trajectory leaving the second wake on the gate, and ultimately sets the timing for the entire course.

 

Think of it like this. If your late in the course, your trajectory off the CL NEEDs to be excessive. If your running early in the course, your trajectory off the CL can be much shallower/softer/and slower as you have more distance and time to move out to apex before the ball. Its a hell of a lot easier to stay "connected" when you are not trying to go 90deg to shore off the second wake. - But the ability to do so all goes back to the start...when you came around the island and made your decision on when to pull out for the gate and the TIMING that set you up for on the zero ball turn with the boat.

 

This sport is more nuanced and complex then "just pull as hard as you can with your arms". Sure, do that and you'll feel something. Might be good, might be bad. Reality is it will not be repeatable day to day.

 

Study the sport. Understand the geometry and the timing, and you can watch your buoy count climb!

[mrpreuss]

Adam,

 

I NEVER, EVER said pull in your arms.

 

I said:

 

"think pull during the transition"

 

That is all Horton should work on, I am not very smart so I guess I confused many

 

Most of us who can run 35 & 38 do most things how they do 'em and work on things.

 

Horton has been skiing his entire life.

 

I did not mean to offend so many trying to wake up Mr Horton

 

Mr Horton I feel terrible ruining your skiing

Adjust your fin and stand a different way instead on your approach

 

Watch Nate, he pulls so hard there, he rocks his upper body away from the boat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@mrpreuss I'm not sure you're wrong, but I am sure that I -- and I think most of us -- don't know what you're suggesting. Just thinking something during the transition is unlikely to do anything -- at least for me. What exactly are you suggesting someone do?

 

Have you ever coached someone on this and seen them improve? If so, what specific instructions clicked with them? If not, you may well have discovered something very important, but I don't think have figured out how to communicate it yet.

[mrpreuss]

Hey Than,

 

Seems most everyone agrees handle control out is the biggest difference

between most top pros and the amateur.

 

Tell someone to do it.

 

That is the problem.

 

How can you tell a skier who has done nothing their entire life what to do.

 

Keep elbows to the vest. That never worked for me to "GET IT"

 

Jamie let me read his notes on skiing.

What he does and Will used to do is not realistic for us.

 

"two hands to the front arms straight" Maximum leverage and results

 

NOT realistic for the average skier, it is very robotic and too much for us.

 

It took me several months to understand and figure out how to do it and do something I had never done before

 

I believe Jamie and Will are the only skiers who made up their minds, learned it and could do that

 

So what should I do? I want to advance on the boat in control.....

 

I think to pull during the transition.

That is all I do

It gives me the handle control with 2 hands into the buoy and everything changes

 

I think you saw me ski at a tournament in N Fl when I was applying like Jamie and you asked about it.

 

Too much for us

 

Apparently no one has tried it. I don't get it......

 

What are you folks afraid of?

 

A little is better then nothing, the more the better, power that is

 

Good luck Don't be afraid

 

Think pull in the transition.... Thats it let me know

[Horton]

@mrpreuss Your posts make as much sense as this video

 

[Zman]

@Horton What IS helping your onside lately? Is any one specific key helping you reinvent your onside?