zero base scoring - is 35off 36mph really equal to 38off 34mph

[swbca]

As the rope gets shorter 35off is still a cruise. Its harder for sure, but it doesn't require any substantial change in technique from 32off. 38off is the first short-line pass with the greatest shift in skill priorities, for example rope handling. You may be solid at 35off and be stuck with 1 or 2 at 38 off indefinitely, until you learn something new. If this is your experience, you might score better in Class C tournaments upping 2mph above your division to avoid 38off. Then get some coaching for 38off.

 

This opinion is posted for more qualified people to agree, disagree and elaborate.

[Jody_Seal]

ZBS has been a success in this sport in my opinion.

If your ok with taking a 6 buoy reduction for shortening per slower speed increments below division max speed. It also works the other way in class C only tournaments. Last weekend half of the men 6 skied at 32 mph and one men 5 skied at 30mph, he qualified for regionals with 2 @35 .

 

With zero off being based off KPH I would like to see the ZBS rule expanded.

Example

55K /34.2 mph full credit.

54K 2 buoy deduction.

53K 4 buoy deduction

52K 6 buoy deduction

And so on.

 

 

 

[LeonL]

Two comments. First, I in no way can see 35 as a "cruise". Personally, short of highly skilled skiers, 35 DOES require a significantly different approach than 32. When I was in my prime I was pretty consistent at 32. 35 was a whole different ball of wax.

Second, the scoring that you mentioned is correct -- in class C. You can ski above division and get the credit, but not so in E or L.

[lpskier]

Actually, you can in an L (interestingly not an E). Under the new IWWF rules you can opt to ski in a lower division at a higher speed. So if you are in 65+ at 52k, you can elect to ski in 55+ at 55k. IWWF Rule 2.03 But in that event, I believe you get a ranking list score in the division you skied rather than a mathematic adjustment. I think...

[Andre]

If 36-35 off the same as 34-38 off,make them ski 36:it's the same thing!!!

Not a fan here...

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Back in the dark ages when a 32 off to shallow 38 off skier went from M2 to M3 the rule of thumb was they would pick up a pass, but a year or 3 later, they would typically be only 4 buoys ahead of their 36 scores. Yes some were more and some less, but that was pretty typical.

 

However when some of the elite level skiers got old and slowed down, it was more typical, say for a skier who could run 39@36 on a good day to run it more consistently and only get 1-2 more buoys at 41.

 

So as the rope gets shorter, the 6 buoy difference between 36 and 34 becomes less and less. I could easily see the difference for a 15 or 22 off skier to gain 8-10 buoys when slowing down from 36 to 34. Of course there will be variability depending on each specific skier.

 

To answer your specific question, IMO a full pass of 35@36 is roughly the same difficulty as 4@38@34.

 

While ZBS has gained popularity for many beginners and seasoned citizens, the 6 buoy delta between speeds is far from absolute.

[liquid d]

@andre it's probably more like a 4 ball dif....but, The problem for most would be that at those lengths/speeds , the ski and ski setup would be very different.

[6balls]

35 off 36 mph easier than 38 off 34 mph (I'm thinking non-pro's here).

 

Would disagree on where the first jump is. I would lump 15 and 22 together, would lump 28 and 32 together as similar passes. 35 is a jump and 38 another, bigger jump.

 

If ZBS makes it more fun--let's do it. The tough part as mentioned above is how many buoys. I'm probably about a 6-er. No chance at running 38 at 36, no chance at running 39 at 34--though I got a couple of good starts! Ya know...I shudda had it!

[swbca]

@Andre @6balls I was thinking about older divisions when I suggested they might score better upping the speed to avoid 38off by skiing 35off at 32 or 34.

 

After the switch from M2 to M3, I had been running more balls at 35off 36mph that I ever did at 38off 34mph. I was stuck for years scoring 1 or 1.5 balls at 38off 34 in tournaments when conditions were good. My skiing technique just didn't work at 38 off and it wasn't because I was a year or two older. If I were to ski at that level now, I might up the speed to avoid 38off AND get some coaching on how to ski 38off at my divisions top speed.

[JackQ]

No it does not, the pulled 6 buoy out of their ^&%, because it is an easy number. Go look at the scores for those going from Men2 to Men’s 3, and Men’s 6 to 7. I went all compared the scores for skier the year before and the year they went to the slower speeds. I dont know if I kept my notes, but it was about 4 buoys, more surprising to me was those going to 32 to 34, where it ranged from losing buoys to gaining a pass, with the average only 2-3 buoys. As a general trend those skiing less than 32 off, gained more than those at 35 off and shorter. My option if you are going to build a handicapped formula, which what ZBS is, spend a little time and research to make it accurate, it ain’t 6 buoys

[MISkier]

I don’t look at it as a handicapped system. The score assigned to a speed and rope length combination for a completed pass should be immutable. You earn the commensurate points for achieving that combination, regardless of who you are.

 

As an example, assume a Men’s 2 skier runs 38 off and gets 1 at -39 at 36 mph. That is 109 points. Then, the same skier turns 35 years old and enters Men’s 3. He runs 38 off and gets 1 at -39 at 36 mph. Why should the points associated to that score be any different? It is still the same performance.

[JackQ]

Because if I am in Men 3, and ski at 34mph and run .5 @41 the other skier has a higher score and at Regionals, Nationals, etc will be seeded higher. Running a full pass at 39@34 is harder that 38@36; running 39@32 is harder (considerably)than running 38@34, as the rope gets shorter, the advantage of the 2mph difference diminishes.

 

I have experience it going to 34 and then 32. During the year I slowed down to 32 mph, I ran 38@34 over 60% of the time in tournaments (more in practice), ran 39 a few times a month with a best tournament score of 5@39 and won the division at Nationals. After the Nationals I went to 32mph, and according to the ZBS handicap I should be running 39 most of the time and 41 occasionally. But I can only run 39 occasionally, and 2@41 and on rare occasion 3@41. Typically when I ran 39@34mph, I could get 2@41, it is not a 6 buoy difference, the max speed should be the max speed.

[6balls]

@swbca it's anectdotal and skier to skier, but at the time I finished M2 I would struggle to run 35 off getting thru very occasionally (like almost never) at 36 mph.

 

My first 34 mph tourney I went 5@38--legit like the first time I skied 34 mph at all...and was way ahead just blew it no patience at the 5. Started running 38 with some regularity (20%) in practice but didn't ski very many tourneys...eventually a 2.5@39 on ZO in a tourney.

 

Strangely enough, after becoming a skier that can run 20% at 38 off 34, I could run 35 off 36 mph much easier than when I was M2...not necessarily money there but a percentage above a coin toss which is nothing I could do in M2.

 

I wonder sometimes had I trained 34 mph when I was a 36 mph some to get the physics of shortline--would it have made a difference in M2 when I then went short? Dunno...all I can say is after years of 34 mph beating up 38 off I'm a better 35 off 36 mph skier than I was in M2.

[MISkier]

The ZBS matrix is not supposed to predict what a skier should be regularly running when they change speeds. It specifies the points that are associated with a particular rope length and speed combination. Nothing more.

 

The example of comparing a skier’s choice of a speed versus another skiers choice of speed also implies that both skiers have that choice, which would be expected.

[matthewbrown]

@Bruce_Butterfield spot on and well said.

[swbca]

@Andre said; "If 36-35 off the same as 34-38 off,make them ski 36:it's the same thing!!!"

 

You misunderstood, I was saying they aren't the same difficulty, even though they are scored the same in Class C tournaments.

 

@Bruce_Butterfield also explained the possible scoring advantage of upping your speed. The same thing applies in older divisions, raising your speed to 32 or 34 to avoid 38off.

Bruce said . . To answer your specific question, IMO a full pass of 35@36 is roughly the same difficulty as 4@38@34.

[customski]

I swap between 34 and 36 quite often and agree with @Bruce_Butterfield

My tournament and practice pb’s are both 5 buoys different between 34 and 36.

[GaryJanzig]

When I first started skiing 36 MPH I took a major step backwards. Before deciding to try tournaments in my 20's I went up to 34 MPH and was able to get into 32off. When I bumped my speed up to 36 MPH I could not clear 15 off consistently. I think 36 is harder than a six buoy difference.

 

[escmanaze]

The OP mentions a concept where you opt to go 3 kph faster than your age division "max speed" Is that a part of ZBS? I kinda thought ZBS only went one way - slower. I didn't know you could use ZBS to go faster than your age division "max speed". Suddenly kinda ruins the whole "max speed" concept and makes me start putting it in quotes.

 

Clarification?

[lpskier]

The ZBS rule allows you to ski up to the maximum speed for your sex: 58 for men and 34 for women.

[MISkier]

@escmanaze, going over your age division max speed (and receiving the corresponding points for that speed/line) is only allowed in a class C. Technically, you could do it at Regionals or Nationals, but you would only be scored as though it was your age division max speed.

[escmanaze]

@lpskier @MISkier Thanks for the replies.

 

It seems to me that the ZBS concept is great for allowing people to shorten the rope before they get to their max speed. It seems to me that it is less great if/when it allows folks to go over the max speed and gain 6 balls because of it. To the extent that this is possible, then it seems like that might be the best part of the rule to get rid of instead of just throwing the whole baby out with the bathwater.

[MISkier]

@escmanaze, what really needs to be done is adopt the age division approach of IWSF, where you can ski in the division with the max speed you want (e.g., IM, 35+, 65+, etc.).

[GK]

We've had ZBS for a few years now and in my opinion it has been beneficial at the local level. Does anyone have any real world example of how the 6 buoy difference actually negatively affected them per some of the "concerns" that people have raised in this thread?

[ALPJr]

Love ZBS. It’s pretty much what got me interested in tournaments again after a ~10 year hiatus. At 60 yrs old I’m trying to preserve my body for many more years of skiing, not striving for any podiums, and really appreciate being able to hang out, have fun, and run a few passes at 32mph in some local C tournaments.

[Than_Bogan]

ZBS is a scoring system and it does not imply that there is an equivalence in difficulty. It allows the skier to choose what they think is the easiest way to get a particular score.

 

If you DO want to engage in the exercise of trying to convert score in terms of difficulty, it's an opinion exercise, and here's my opinion:

 

I claim that 36/-32 and 34/-35 are equivalent difficulty, but that as you move away from there you lose/gain a buoy with each pass because speed is more important at long lengths and the rope is more important as very short lengths. For example 6 @ 36/-35 maps to just 5 @ 34/-38, and then 6 @ 36/-38 maps to 4 @ 34/-39. But when you go in the other direction, the speed itself is the bigger challenge, so for example 4 @ 36/-22 matches up to the full pass at 34/-28.

 

My opinion can also be expressed by a simple formula, but please please please do not think that because I included math this somehow becomes a fact. This formula is just capturing my opinion about the difficulty relationship.

 

Let b6 = buoy count at 36.

Let b4 = buoy count at 34.

 

b6 = 7/6 * b4 - 16

 

(Original thread: https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/73957)

 

[MarkM]

no it's not equal. It's ridiculous.

[bko]

@Than_Bogan So a score of 103 at 36 mph is your equivalent of 104,3 at 34mph?

[Than_Bogan]

@bko. Nope. I believe you swapped 'em there. A score of 103 at 34mph (1 @ -39) would match up to a score of roughly 104 at 36 mph (2 @ -38).

 

If you want to convert the other way, you do a touch of algebra to get: b4 = 6/7 * (b6+16). So you'll see that 103 at 36 mph (1 @ -38) maps to 102 at 34 mph (6 @ -38). That particular spot is a little silly, because who can't get at least 0.5 on the next pass? But it's just an approximation.

[bko]

@Than_Bogan The brackets in your formula now make a significant difference (to me).

I also made the mistake of believing that a calculated 104 for 34 would mean 2@38.

 

Second try: 103 (1@38/36) "equals" 102 (6@38/34). Correct?

[LeonL]

Kinda off the train of thought, but "who can't get at least 0.5 on the next pass?" Well I've seen Nate get 0.0 several times @43. Not your normal situation, granted, but just for grins I thought I'd mention that.

[swbca]

@MarkM Everyone on this thread agrees that 36/35 is not equal difficulty to 34/38. But they are scored the same in Class C events. I don't know what you mean by "its ridiculous"

[scoke]

@swbca

 

When's your first tournament? What speed are you going to ski this year?

 

[MarkM]

@swbca

 

It’s ridiculous they are scored the same

[Jody_Seal]

Some of you are just mad because you got beat by a slower speed and shorter line length... go on say it! I am an Elitest! I don't care about anyone but me!! Come on you can do it!!

 

 

Zero based scoring and the allowance of older boat utilization is first and second best policy that has come down in this sport in many years.

 

Minimize the rankings ideology and get back to competition of the day and all this becomes a mute point! oh ! but wait ! you just got beat by a guy going 3k slower and two line lengths shorter!!!

 

 

 

[MISkier]

@MarkM, the matrix is mathematical. It starts at the first/lowest allowable speed and first/longest allowable line length and sets that at zero. For each completed pass, you must add 6, as that is the number of buoys that were rounded. It is expected that when you go up in speed and retain the rope length, you gain 6 buoys for each pass. It is also expected that when you shorten the rope length and retain the speed, you gain 6 buoys for each pass. It's just simple counting and the fact that two separate paths equal the same result is not ridiculous, it's math.

 

I believe your real issue is not with the point values, but the fact that an age division will allow multiple speeds, especially over the maximum speed for the division. That is the issue here, not the point assignment.

[MarkM]

@MISkier

 

Yes, I clearly understand the concept. But it is far from mathematical. It's nonsense.

6@35 34mph is not equal to 6@32 36mph. We have satellites in space controlling our boat speeds within 1000th of a second and devices tracking our boat paths within a gnats ass.

All of a sudden 2mph=exactly 6 buoys at every line length. *Science!

 

[MISkier]

Other than the approach of the less restrictive age division choice options like IWSF (IM, 35+, 65+, etc.), the only other way to solve it is to see if everyone agrees that shortening the rope is a premium over speeding up. Then, you change the matrix to award 6 buoys for each speed increment for a pass where you sped up from your previous pass or 12 buoys for each loop where you shortened from your previous pass. For a pass where you opted up, the effect is additive and you get both (as you do now). If you do not complete the pass, you get the number of buoys rounded, as is awarded today. It becomes complicated as you advance through through the matrix, but nothing that cannot be programmed into the scoring system without much difficulty.

 

Personally, I prefer the IWSF approach.

[Drago]

@Jody_Seal ?

Just do what makes you happiest, guys.

[swbca]

@scoke to answer your questions. Everything is undecided. I am in M9 but may be practicing a 34mph because the larger wake and wider ski at slower M9 speeds may put my knees back under the surgeon's knife. I have a 67" and 68" D3ski. I'll will use the ski and speed that will keep my knees from blowing out again . . . don't want to wreck the fun !

 

The first tournament this season is June 19th, but will only be going if I am ready. We have had a lot of cold and windy weather. Some other Minnesota regulars are also behind this "summer".

[swbca]

@Drago good advise. I started this thread but look at ZBS as an opportunity to ski at at whatever speed you like . . not a problem.

[GSchmid]

I'm sure it's different for everybody. For me, it's been almost exactly 6 buoys. 38' is my money pass at 34 mph and 35' is my money pass at 36. Run that at the same frequency (which is unfortunately not much these days :) )

 

I'm in M4, but switch back to 36 regularly because I believe it forces me to ski "cleaner". It helps me on my edge change and also doesn't allow me to get away with as much out of the buoy.

 

Also, 36 is easier on the body... 38/34 puts much more load on you!

[lpskier]

Under the heading “No Good Deed Goes Unpunished,” the ZBS rule was adopted to satisfy the folks that wanted to ski faster (or slower) than their division allowed. AWSA addressed it, for Class C tournaments only, with ZBS rule. Perfect. Ski any speed you want. Now people quibble about equivalency. Come on! It’s class C.

 

On the other hand, IWWF addressed it a different way that perhaps makes more sense. You want to ski a faster speed? Ski in a faster division. Get a score in that division. No equivalence issue but you a competing against a younger crowd.

 

There are a couple differences though. Foremost: Under IWWF rules, you don’t get credit for shortening the rope until you reach max speed for the division. Under AWSA rules, you do. Example: you are in a division with a max speed of 55k. You go off the dock at 52/14 (32/-28) and run your opener, and you fall at 3 ball (for a score of 2.5) at 55/14. Under AWSA rules, your score is 80.5; under IWWF rules, your score is 2.5.

[6_Buoys]

@Jody_Seal Well said: "Zero based scoring and the allowance of older boat utilization is first and second best policy that has come down in this sport in many years."

 

We should be doing as much as we can to keep people returning to and new people showing up to tournament skiing. ZBS has helped in both of those categories.

[GK]

Still no real world examples of how ZBS negatively affected someone since it was implemented. It doesn't matter if it equates to exactly 6 buoys, everyone has the same options and you can do whatever you think will get you the most buoys. I've done it a couple times (with little success) but I see almost no 34 mph skiers bumping it up to 36 mph because they can get more buoys.

[ScottScott]

I have a little ways to go before I get to max speed at 32, but as I'm just learning and moving up speed I'm happy to be able to stop at 32 and start shortening in class C tournaments. At some point maybe I'll go on up to 34, but I know a couple people that have skied 34 (and maybe some 36) that are below 32 max age, but are glad to drop on down to 32 and still ski tournaments. It may or may not make that big of a difference, but they feel better about taking a wipeout at 32mph instead of 34 as we get older.