Why do rear bindings come as a boot or a flip-flop/sandal?

[MarkM]

Rear bindings either come in the format of a boot or a flip-flop/sandal.

For me, a boot is too restrictive and a flip-flop/sandal is too loose and unsupportive.

I realize there are choices like a radar Hybrid, Reflex rear, etc. but the heels are so cut down that your heel slips out.

Why not make a rear binding in the format of a running shoe? This would support your foot/heel and free up your ankle.

[keithh2oskier]

That's basically what the r-style is isn't it?

[BraceMaker]

I've belt sanded a croc and glued it to a plate works good but it's a bit soft. Needs a strap around it.

[OldboyII]

I like Manon's RTP but it looks dangerously unreleasable....

[ALPJr]

There are a few rear specific boots made, Tfactor, Leverage (softer) Animal, Venom (softer),Wiley’s (custom wrap available). I use dbl Cabitex and wear the rear boot slightly looser for a little wiggle room.

[MISkier]

One of the skiers at some of our tournaments has a rear toe piece and a heel strap that looks like surgical tubing threaded through a small section of foam pipe insulation. It's not really that, of course, and seems more heavy duty. At any rate, it's stretchy and has a thick roll of tubing that wraps around the heel of the foot. He starts with both feet in.

[MarkM]

@keithh2oskier

 

Negative. The heel is cut too low and your heel is not secure.

[ktm300]

Wiley rear? You can do a lot to customize fit. Thick overlays. Thin overlays. Loose or tight overlays. No overlays. Can cut it down some if you like. Move heel piece forward/aft on the plate.

[skibrain]

Agree with Wiley’s on rear.

Their CBO version is less restrictive option too.

[keithh2oskier]

@MarkM

 

Personally I think the r-style does have a secure heel and is pretty comparable to a tennis shoe with a little more lateral support. The only way my back foot comes out is to lift up and out, just like taking off a shoe. Unlike a rtp where the foot will slide directly back. I used to run a full back boot and wanted less lateral support in the rear with still having the security of not being a RTP.

 

 

Note the photo shows about an 1" difference but if you take into account the thickness of the tennis shoe heel I bet it's within 1/2" or less.

[MarkM]

I’ve used it. Heel comes out.

[BRY]

Hmmm, I am not sure and I don't think you are sure what you are asking.

 

@MarkM You say "Rear bindings either come in the format of a boot or a flip-flop/sandal."

No, this is clearly not true. As you point out "I realize there are choices like a radar Hybrid, Reflex rear, etc." So options other than boot or sandal.

 

Crux seems to be "but the heels are so cut down that your heel slips out" and "Negative. The heel is cut too low and your heel is not secure." Specifically "heel slips out" and "not secure". So what do you mean by that, what is the "secure" you would like?

 

For instance the Reflex R-style, which I know well, the heel can not go out sideways or back and the foot can not slide forward. Any release, "slip out" requires an up component of several inches. This particular binding concept is to have the foot held to the ski like a hard boot but to free the ankle and specifically free the heel, let the heel come up, without the heel moving in any other plane, like a toe loop but with side and rear support. No slip out the side or back. I believe it does that exact thing, been on one for years. Only way out is with an sizable UP component.

 

You ski better than anyone on this thread, well better than most anyone. You state you want your ankle free, so no boot. I assume you don't want the ball of your foot to move, all options lock that. So what do you want your heel to do? Locked down to the sole like in a boot? A small amount of vertical but no fore/aft/side movement? Resistance or free for that vertical, up, movement? Completely free vertical but no fore/aft/side movement?

 

 

[BRY]

Ha! @keithh2oskier and I crossed post!

 

@MarkM You say "I’ve used it. Heel comes out." How did the heel come out without the foot coming out? Not meaning to argue just wanting to know. Mine is in or out, never halfway. It's gotta release somehow.

[ALPJr]

Here ya go.

https://maherajah.com/collections/decals-poster/products/maherajah-heel-holder

[C5Quest]

@ALPJr Is this similar to what Fred Winter is using?

[OldboyII]

I use rear Venon one size larger than front boot. I allows heel lift (my calf is stiff) and keeps foot exactly where it must be. Feels like RTP.

[Deanoski]

Here are two different rear I built Rtp with heel and wrap

 

And a Willey 3/4 with my wrap on it

 

Good hold and rear ankle flexibility

 

 

 

 

[Deanoski]

 

[BraceMaker]

Have you considered adapting a skyski binding? They're like a RTP but with stiff heel straps and a fitted footbed.

[OldboyII]

@BraceMaker for the sake of experiment once I attached heel strap to RTP. Skiing is very nice and comfy but this setup did look absolutely unreleasable. At least it the water I could not get out without stretching strap with fingers. Removed.

May be there is a hack how to fix this problem?

[BraceMaker]

@OldboyII ya I am a bit confused by the problem. I use a radar HRT and dont even cinch the laces and have never come out by accident

[pregom]

@OldboyII what if the heel strap had something like a piece of webbing, maybe, that tied the strap to the footbed behind the heel? In case of a fall, the webbing should act like your fingers, right? I also like the Maherajah heel cup that @ALPJr posted.

[OldboyII]

@pregom Very interesting idea! Thank you.

@BraceMaker few times in HRT I found my heel staying on the back rim of the boot. Rare situation, but enough to feel uncomfortable.

By the way, some time ago I posted one of my experiments of RTP modification:

 

 

[RichardDoane]

Just crop the top of a Radar boot.

 

 

[jeidmann]

Good discussion here. I've been on a Radar with Vapor boots for a few years. Just got a Goode XTR CC and decided to go with the Reflex Supershell in the front, R-style in the rear. I really wanted it to work but I can barely get up on it and can't turn it worth a damn!

 

This week I skied the course with the Vapor boots and ran deep into 35 off, next day tried the Reflex setup and couldn't run 22 off (and that was with the binding uncomfortably tight). I used to ski with an RTP as a kid but that was many years ago. Kinda wondering if there is something deficient in my skiing that I can't ski this R-style.

 

The reason for the switch - I never release with the Vapors so I was looking for something that would provide that level of safety. In fairness, I've never gotten injured with the Vapors but I'm not getting any younger and figure it's a matter of time. I'd go with the double Goode setup but I have wide feet (D) so that won't work, and I don't want a high wrap because my foot will cramp.

Thoughts?

[keithh2oskier]

@jeidmann when I went from my double animals to front reflex/rear animal and then eventually reflex/r-style it was a significant challenge both times but I think adjusting to the r-style was the hardest. For me after 20 years of double back boot the freedom I had In the r-style was so foreign I truly didn't trust that it wouldn't fall out. I recommend giving it some rides and just getting used to the new feeling. I think i struggled to run my opener at -22. Once I basically committed to the mental aspect that my foot wouldn't fall our randomly I got back to my normal skiing level quickly and I enjoy the setup now.

 

FWIW, changing skis is far easier for me than boots.

 

I have never used to radars but because the front reflex felt so much stiffer I felt I needed to actually not keep it super tight to give some more flexibility.

[jeidmann]

@keithh2oskier I appreciate the feedback, what what the reason you changed to the Reflex/R-style? I like the Supershell but if it means having to re-learn how to ski the course, honestly, I'm not really up for that.

 

The issue for me is less of "committing to my foot not falling out" and more of my lack of ability to control the ski out of the turn (compared to a double boot set up.

 

I added a bungee strap and will give it another try and hope it works...if not I'm going to give the Goode double boot/Interloc a try.

 

I'm curious, how many passes did it take for you to get back to your level of skiing pre R-Style?

[jeidmann]

 

[keithh2oskier]

@jeidmann I switched for 2 reasons.

 

1. My animal rear boot was super uncomfortable. 4 passes and my foot was cramped. It got unbearable to ski.

2. I felt after going to the reflex front that I needed more flexibility for the rear. I started with leaving the laces fully loose which helped but it wasn't enough.

 

No idea on the passes. But I wouldn't be surprised if it took 3-4 sets or so to get fairly comfortable with it.

[skialex]

@jeidmann your rear plate looks like it’s mounted over the edge of the ski. This will definitely mess with your Ski’s performance.

You probably know you can pivot the boot instead of the plate...

[jeidmann]

@skialex good point...it was lazy and temporary...it's adjusted now, thx.