Fix My Stack

[Mastercrafter]

@Horton (and others) have been preaching the importance of a good stack into / through the wakes lately, so lets hear what I can do to improve. I'm not at the point yet where I know what's right, and what's wrong in order to self-diagnose. 

Nothing super consistent but this is a collection of "average" positions for me the last couple of days, except I eliminated the all-too-common "completely collapsed and sitting on the ski" because I know they're bad 😬

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8

9

 

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[skialex]

Onside crossings look better… offsides not so much. Your stack is broken, butt a little back, arms away from the body…

but what I would like to see is video or pictures of off the second wake and on the way to the buoy…

for example onside cuts look good before first wake, but do you keep your stack off the second wake, are your hips still up and arms close to the body…?

somehow I believe that your off side cut issues start off the second wake of your onside cut and as in most of us at the setup 😊

Edited May 23, 2023 by skialex
Wanted to add comment

[Horton]

Some are pretty good, and some are not. It is important that you see the difference.

1)      Might be pretty good. You drive your knees forward pretty well.

2)      Your hips are pretty far back

3)      I like it

4)      Better than 2. Not bad.

5)      Hot mess. This is the worst of the bunch. See how your back leg is bent way more than your front leg.? Bad.

6)      Pretty darn good

7)      Seems good until I noticed your back knee getting ahead of your front knee. That tells me your back heel might be up and you might not be in a very safe / powerful position.

8     Meh.

9)      Decent

10)   I love where your hips are in relation to your front ankle but your back leg makes me nervous.

I would like to see video to give a clearer diagnosis

[Stevie Boy]

@Horton has concerns about your back foot, I  noticed that you are double booted, be interesting to know how far apart your feet are, a possible modification to the rear plate could get them closer and reduce heel lift.

Just a thought!

[Mastercrafter]

Thanks guys. I see my back foot / knee issue but I guess it's just a result of whatever else I'm thinking about & doing... front foot pressure and trying not to press on the back of the ski. So.. I need to keep my rear heel down and rear knee behind front knee, with less bend? Got it. 

@Horton I appreciate your analysis and explanation as right now I can't always see and understand the differences.. but it's making more sense. 

Hips need to be forward and over feet as a result of ankle bend and knee drive forward?

In # 3 my hips are in front of my shoulders. In #1 and  #6 my shoulders are a little in front of my hips, I think. Should hips ideally be in front of shoulders?

I'll upload some video soon for a bigger picture of what's happening. Admittedly right now, my shoulders are coming forward as I'm off the second wake as I'm still figuring this skiing thing out this season. 

Thanks again. 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[Mastercrafter]

Video from last night. Running late + narrow but whatever... water is still cold in MI. Open to all feedback in addition to "fix my stack".

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[Mastercrafter]

One more. Kinda scrappy. 🙂

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[Mastercrafter]

Last one as BOS can only handle so many videos of my skiing. 

 

 

[jhughes]

I think this looks pretty good actually. You may be asking the wrong question. I don't think your "stack" is that bad at all.

"How can I not bend my arms" would be a better question for in course stuff. I see a lot of arm work there and that creates rope tension and makes "stack" impossible. 

That gate is probably not going to work at 28 off but that might be a separate convo.

Edited May 24, 2023 by jhughes

[Mastercrafter]

I tend to use way too much arms and it’s a regular thought to keep them straight and still.. room for improvement obviously. 
 

Curious what aspect of the gate is lacking most. I got through a few 28/36 last year but just because I did it, doesn’t mean it was done right. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[BobF]

I'm not as good at coaching as some on here, but I would suggest that you should aim to get a lot higher on the boat on your pullout, and take that optimal swing into the gates.

Example of my son's 28 gate height from a set this morning for comparison.

[Mastercrafter]

Noted. At -22 I’m about 10 feet outside of buoy line but could surely do better. Need to make sure I add width, and not velocity down the lake. 

[scoke]

You're alignment is decent but your concept of action is incorrect. We can all have the best intentions but if our actions are the opposite of what they need to be, we'll fall apart. OR we’ll be stuck on a pass banging the wall.

Meaning, if you get a world class gate but are letting go with the wrong hand at 1 ball, all is lost and it's a dead end. It's so obvious with some of the advice on here in other threads. You must fix the big rock, how you lean against the boat. Have you ever really work on your lean position by definition? 

Once you move in for the gate, you've got to have semblance of proper fundamentals. If not, the folks coaching an ideal gate only are wasting your time but with good intentions. (Current gate is fine for 22 and not what’s holding you back)  

Pretty consistent theme for the "stackers" to be fighting their own bodies. Basically your concept of your “how to get into a leveraged position" is all jacked up.

It's really not that hard as currently you are squatting on the ski. Probably from years of being told "bend your kneeeeeeesss!!"

1) Stand up on the ski. Should be a natural position, DON’T press into your feet as it drives you hips/COM back.

2) Don't generate energy by using your arms. aka DON'T PULL ON THE ROPE. Loosen your arms up and know ZO is going to do the work.

3) Literally, loose arms, lean OVER the edge of your ski NOT lean BACK OVER THE FIN block and let the ski slip through the water. Guarantee you won't die and your alignment will be much cleaner. (you're actually not leaning over the fin block like the majority of the S&P'ers do and are already setup for success on this concept).

Right now you are a "Squat and Puller" which is rooted in the two things of "trying to stack" and "bend your knees". You've got to do the opposite.

Well dang, I was going to page @jhughes to the squat and puller courtesy phone. @jhughes, already picked up line 1! He's got credibility as he reformed himself a few years back. Props!!!

Props to you for putting up video and putting yourself out there as well. 

What the heck is wrong with my fonts? I'm posting from my jitterbug phone and it looks fine.

[Stevie Boy]

For what it is worth, I  am a strong boy and used to use my arms a lot, it totally screws you up, I  overcame the issue by by letting the ski finish the turn and make sure you have the connection and position and let the boat take you across course.
In you try to force the turn or turn and burn, you will end up.using your arms. Garranteed a Big OTF at some.point.

[Mastercrafter]

Did someone say big OTF? 

 

 

 

 

View this post on Instagram

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A post shared by Mike Wagner (@the_daily_ski)

[ReallyGottaSki]

I like the ankle flex you have, thats big.

However you appear to be giving the boat more of your shoulders each turn, while not really taking them back before the line loads.  As said, your bent arms are not helping, thus compounding the forces wanting to fold you forward.

chest out start tall stay tall

I'd like to to see you reset the body stack right  after getting up and out of the water.

I'm seeing you still somewhat crushed upper body from the dws then start pulling out, then getting incrementally worse. Get up then chest out, shoulders open, hips forward, ankles flexed forward. open that front hip joint just past 180 so it locks in. You should feel your torso between your upper arms. if not, thats your indicator the hips are stillbehind you.  After fixing yourself, then start the pullout. A compromised stack wont repair itself mid course unless it both starts off strong and you've built the muscle memory to recover it., especially if one hasn't really 'felt' it yet.

lead with the hips out the turn and thrust them forward and up.  butt is falling out as line loads because not committed to getting the hips in front of shoulders and locked in, else i think falls like that will persist with frustrating randomness. 

[Horton]

@scoke

I fixed your post but seriously you have to stop posting from your Jitterbug

[Horton]

Video sure helps

@Mastercrafter

You stack is not bad but now that I see video it is more clear that your hips are moving back and your shoulders are moving forward even before the first wake. 

My heterodox coaching would be to extend your legs and try to get your feet farther from our chin. This straightens your whole body. 

More traditional coaching would be to drive your front knee forward to bring your hips forward.

Either way you need to make it so your spine alignment is closer to your front ankle.  Draw a one straight line from our front ankle to the base of your spine and then to your neck.

[ETskier]

And your butt should never be behind your shoulders.

[Mastercrafter]

2 hours ago, ETskier said:

And your butt should never be behind your shoulders.

Right, so I hear.

For clarification though.. Sacha’s butt looks behind his shoulders here, but I guess it’s still closer to the boat than his shoulders, which is what matters? His upper body is leading the cross-course direction of travel, as I see it. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[BobF]

To me, that pic above still has shoulders, hips, and ankles pretty stacked up.

[Mastercrafter]

Video from yesterday’s set.

While not the perfect pass, I tried to stand taller on the ski and keep my feet far away from my chin as Horton suggested. Tried to remember “loose arms” and I do think my shoulders come forward less through and off the wakes. lastly, thought about keeping my shoulders a little more level out of the turn and ready for the load. 
 

I felt a lot of new things in yesterday’s set which was good + interesting. Will keep at it. 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[scoke]

mom let me use her Tandy this morning so i can post properly.

pretty cool you are shooting video, somewhat asking for feedback and evolving.

Squatting & Pulling is the #1 block to owning 32 off and beyond. It makes 22 and 28 a battle.

 

This is squatting:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is Pulling (with arms): 

Edited May 26, 2023 by scoke

[Horton]

@Mastercrafter studying a pro skier who is an technically an outlier will take you down a bad rabbit hole. As for Sasha - Just look away.

[VONMAN]

@Mastercrafter Rumor has it that your front license says "Out The Front" on it?!

[Slalom.Steve]

One clarification about "pulling with arms" - I know that during the cut (ball to 2nd wake), you want your arms totally straight. But going from 2nd wake to ball, all the pros bend their arms. My understanding is this to maintain rope connection/tension and outbound swing even while edge changing and beginning to turn the opposite direction.
 

In @scoke's 3rd pic ture, "pulling with arms," it shows the skier well past the 2nd wake, when I thought it was good to be "pulling with arms," to bring the rope in. But it's given as an example of what not to do? I'm confused.

[ReallyGottaSki]

what i observe there

2->3  there was not much energy

Breaking down the frames, your pull duration is short, pulling though the whitewater, but not much longer than that.

shutting it off in the trough is standing you up, big smash spray on the wake, but not from the pull

suggests a more progressive pull,  one that be maintained,  less 'peaky', but more area under the power curve, so to speak.

May i suggest, be more isometrically rigid approaching and though th ewake.

Too much conforming the trough and wake  while shutting off the pull, is wheelieing you up on a wake that really shouldn't be doing so.  

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by ReallyGottaSki

[scoke]

@SlalomSteve

 

You’re exactly correct and should be confused as words have very specific meaning.

Very cool that you’re asking the right questions.

And that’s the difference in arm skiing versus leg skiing. My previous posts I talked about skiers owning 35 off and beyond, really ski with their legs while their arms are just attachments. They bend their arms, they don’t pull with their arms. 
Think ski pressure-tension versus line tension through our hands. Two different things. This was in several episodes of the spraymakers podcast. 

But heres the catch, in the pictures of the pro’s (typically), they are standing up through their legs, they are coming balanced and centered through their legs, while BENDING their arms. 
They are NOT pulling themselves up over their skis 100% with their arms but working the line tension in conjunction with the ski pressure through the legs with bent arms.

Remember, the arms are just an extension of the pylon-rope. NOT our throttle nor our gas pedal. Remember back in the day Karina used to talk about “not breaking the icicle” of the rope? She never pulled her arms in as that breaks the (changes) line tension.

Hence why I am so heavy-hard on the squat&pullers as they are actually arm skiing everywhere never firing their legs to generate pressure, hold pressure, release pressure. And as a result, they pull their COM forward and aft on the ski the entire time versus loose and lean against the boat letting the ski slip through the water. 

Which is why, all the video of the S&P’ers, they are hunched over, squatting at the top of the gate, riding the tail, nearly going out the front while losing all sense of ski slip efficiency and degradation of energy, while pulling themselves across the course. No matter how much they fight to "hold stack" (bunk), they never will be able to hold the energy as it's built up in their upper body, not their lower body. 

 

Do the opposite: stand up on the ski, lean over the edge with loose arms, bend the arms keeping connection out to the buoy while using the legs to swing wide out around the buoy.
 

 

YMMV, JMO, ICW, DIRM, DNT100%, IDRGAF.

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by scoke

[ForrestGump]

As the elite skiers advance on the boat the handle has to start moving to the inside in relation to the ski path, otherwise the ski gets blocked from its swing.  The only way you can do that while staying connected ends up with the inside elbow bent. It's a byproduct, not an action. In those pictures of Nate, that outside arm(which is straight, or as straight as you can really expect) is the connection to the boat. Once you're at that level you can use that handle as your means of varying the tension in the line.  Mere mortals should not be even thinking of those types of things because it's the tail wagging the dog.  A guy like Nate, CAN do that because he's done so many things right up to that point.  

Edited May 26, 2023 by ForrestGump

[Mastercrafter]

Lots of interesting info here -- thank you. Been busy but will reply soon.. and have some more video to add. 

I'm going to figure this out if it's the last thing I do. 

 

[Mastercrafter]

This sport is hard. 

I've been making conscious efforts to avoid pulling and squatting and I've felt a bit better overall, but video from last night shows I have a ways to go. I think when I feel late out of a buoy, my instinct is to squat, pull, and push with my feet (3 to 4 in this video) rather than stay tall and simply lean away from the boat. 

My arms are still bending off the second wake. I think I started this habit trying to keep the handle close, but as discussed above, it's supposed to be a move to manage line tension while simply riding the ski, not a forced effort to put the handle where it doesn't want to go. I misunderstood and have been going about it incorrectly for a while, trying to pull the handle in and keep it close. 

Previous set (not on video, of course) I did a lot better with keeping two hands on the handle through edge change into pre-turn, which resulted in a wider, earlier line. That surely felt better and I had a little more time to get into position and stand tall as the boat picked me up. This set.. not sure what I was thinking about, but apparently not "two hands longer". Next time. 

 

58K/16m video below. Questions / comments / concerns welcome.