Deep water starts

[Jetsetr]

Morning all...

Progressed thru Butterknife, Senate and now riding a Vapor...

Really like the ski, except I’m having having a little difficulty with deep water starts. Had a back injury last season (waaaay too hard of a pullout too proud to let go and got doubled over the ski). I’m not really getting a “pocket” and I stay tucked for much longer on the pullouts now.

Its not really an issue other than its REALLY hard to see where I’m going (actually not that important, I can keep my eyes closed until I feel the ski start to plane), but I feel my technique is seriously flawed...

Im 190# and ski a double boot 69” Vapor.  I skied a RTP & HRTP and really don’t care for them.  Usually ski 3x per week. Wondering if more pressure on the rear leg would help, but I would think that it would actually cause more drag...

Open to suggestions, but a smoother “softer” more consistent pull seems a bit better...working with my drivers to be more consistent but they’re really not. Can’t complain since I can’t drive myself.

 

What say you? (other than take up gardening!)

 

[MDB1056]

Are you tucking your knees way up underneath you so your front knee it about at your chest before starting? With double boots it gets the ski flat quicker at pull out and let's the boat do most all the work, and minimizes load on your back.  

[Jetsetr]

I will make sure knees are up to/keep at my chest...

I have gone from a baseball bat grip on pullouts back to a palms flat grip, that seemed to help a bit. Right side dominant so I had a tendency to use right arm predominantly on pullouts bat style. Ski RFF so I have the rope on the left side of the ski...

[BraceMaker]

Look down go down.

I'm not sure about you but I instruct this way and it works.

The number 1 thing is that your back heel is in your butt. We want the ski to be as angled towards flat in the water as possible.  This means we're sitting there in the water arms straight back straight hips flexed knees flexed but our rear foot the heel is as up under our butt as possible.  The front hip is flexed the front knee is flexed but that's less important we need the back knee and back hip flexed right up under our butt.

This puts the ski relatively flat in the water and a lot of ski in the water.  If you put your front leg where you normally do and play with the back you'll see that the ski goes vertical | as you straighten your back leg.

So we are in our ball with our ski and back foot under our butt.  And we have our back straight and arms straight knees sort of between them and we're comfy.  So now we're looking down the rope at the boat. 

Look up at the spotter and drivers heads.  Slack comes out.  When you say hit it grip firmly on the handle and keep your eyes up there.  As you start to move almost immediately there is enough support to start pushing on the ski.  This isn't a look down and drag its a I'm holding on this and I am going to stand up on this ski.  Do this by just pushing evenly on both feet.  Almost just pushing your butt to your hands smootly.

 

Too many people do this "tuck look down " thing and then you're reliant on the driver.  If you follow the steps above and your driver goes early you can get up one handed.

 

[BraceMaker]

Back foot in butthole

 

Done properly and you can make a very early move to extend your hips "driving" your butt towards the handle. That's where the pocket comes from you move up over the ski.

Edited June 21, 2023 by BraceMaker

[TomH]

I completely subscribe to Bracemaker's method, and is exactly how I teach slalom starts.  I will add that, while we all like to ski in thin comp vests, getting a more buoyant life jacket that keeps you up out of the water more can make the starts easier as well.

[jpwhit]

If you can tolerate being towed at idle before being pulled up, that also makes quite a bit of difference. The two step start. Step 1 - "in gear". Step 2 - after your moving pretty good - "hit it"

When being towed while "in gear", don't try to keep the ski straight, let it tilt in the direction of your front foot some. Then when the boat pulls, it's pretty natural for the ski to straighten up. 

As has been mentioned, stay completely crouched. I ride the ski up almost like a knee board and then stand up once the ski is completely planned out. 

[Jetsetr]

JP that’s what I have been doing as well, but I don’t feel it’s the most efficient way to do it...

I have no issue being towed behind the boat at idle, could go around the lake that way...

I like  Bracemakers ideas, and will incorporate them all.

I THINK I’m delaying the “push” too long. I do make it a point to try and have the ski as flat as possible and the rear foot up against my butt...

That’s the problem with skis like the Butterknife, they’re SOOOOO easy to ski. 

Thanks for all of the comments! 

[MDB1056]

@Jetsetr Yes definitely start both palms down on the handle. Much more even pull and no dominant issues. 

[BraceMaker]

I would add to your thought process that you want to/need to bulletproof your start.  Clearly some drivers are incompetent so I cannot help you if someone drowns you by pulling you at 1/8 throttle till you pop off or if someone hammers you on a slack rope and rips you out of your boots.

But if you've practiced your starts and have a technique to deal with it both of those work.  Go back to the butterknife and have your driver pull you crazy bad have them give you too firm and too soft starts.  Figure out how to get up with both of them.

Because sometimes you're going to be at an even and you'll have not pulled out hard enough and you'll drop too close to the gate and it will be a tail wind start and the wind will be blowing the boat towards the gates and if the only way you can deep water start is to ask for the driver to put it in gear well you're just getting closer and closer to the course and you're going to pull out late and had a tail wind and you're going to wave goodbye to 2 ball as you ski past the boat guides.

And somewhere else there will be a head wind and the driver will put it in gear and you won't get the tension you want on the line and you'll fail a start.  And at another event you'll say "ready?" and the driver will go because he thought you meant hit it.  So you really should be able to deepwater start in all of those situations Heck throw on the butterknife and learn to get up one handed since its so easy.

[ScottScott]

I've been struggling with back issues as a result of my deep water starts, and all of that for the last couple years now. I have tried everything I can think of as far as modifying my technique etc. and can't seem to make anything work better....it has really limited my time on the water. I'm sure loosing about 15 pounds would help as much as anything. 

 

Lately I've been able to ski a little more, what seems to help some is: 

I abandoned 15 off. Starting at 22off 30mph. Even tho I'm not running that many passes anymore. (maybe I'll try slowing to 28 off...? But I hate to go much slower at 22 off tho.) The pullup is noticeably easier at 22 than 15. Hopefully it gets me more time on the water more and I can get back to seeing passes into 28 off at 32mph.

As boat starts I bend forward and try to resist as little as I can, allowing the pull to compress my body to the ski. Doesn't seem to matter if I look up or down, and when bending forward its easier to look down, than to try to look up.

[Ski_Dad]

I've had to tell all my drivers to give me a softer pulls.   I used words like 1/4 throttle is about all i need and less is more for me.   It took me a while to realize that if I go over the front on my start it's too much gas...

the tendency is to say give 'er more but in reality it's the opposite.   This give me time to think about putting pressure on my front foot.   

Oh and is your driver watching you in the mirror when they pull you out - that is pretty important.

[Jmoski]

One other tidbit that might help is to intentionally have the ski tip slanted over on the side of your front foot vs having the ski dead center at 12 o’clock while waiting to take off.

Think having the tip at either 10 o’clock (lff) or 2 o’clock (rff) as you’re floating in the water getting lined up.

 So if you’re a left foot forward skier you can let you ski tip flag to the left and as the boat goes it will straighten itself out on take off.

The issue comes in when you have the ski tip at 12 o’clock and:

1. The ski tip happens to flop over away from your dominant side just as the boat goes.

2. your driver takes off on an angle that causes the ski to flag/fall over to your non dominant side.

which is really hard to recover from and can cause missed starts IMHO.

[Gale K]

LONG time lurker, first time poster... this is a subject near and dear to my heart as I've coached/taught a plenty on this subject. My first foray into deep water starts was behind a 30hp "mini" ski boat. If your technique wasn't perfect, there was no way you were going to come out. Back in the day, it was rear toe plate only, and that allowed you to extend your arms and body way far forward, tuck the tail of the ski way up (BraceMaker's graphic above), drag the back leg behind, and then have the patience to let the boat plane out the ski.

Fast forward to a rear boot, and my mental image was still the same, albeit harder to accomplish because the back foot can't be splayed out behind. And, I also learned that the mental image that worked for one person wouldn't necessarily work for the next.

Keys for me:

-arms straight. I tell my students "if you're pulling against the boat, you're doing it wrong. The boat always wins."
-face/head as far forward as practical towards the tip of the ski
-ski tail tucked as close to your fanny as possible

[Jaypro]

5 hours ago, BraceMaker said:

Back foot in butthole

 

Done properly and you can make a very early move to extend your hips "driving" your butt towards the handle. That's where the pocket comes from you move up over the ski.

2 butthole comments in a week!!  

[BraceMaker]

Mine has a nice drawing though.

[Jaypro]

@BraceMakerabsolutely!!  Should have had an arrow showing the butthole/ski location!🤣

[lpskier]

If you are hurting your back getting up, you are not engaging your core sufficiently. When the rope starts to tighten up, tighten all your core muscles, just like you’re doing a deadlift. You’ll stop hurting your back because the load will be on your core muscles, not your spine. 

[ScottScott]

@lpskier There are lots of muscular, nerve, etc causes for back pain, and a variety of things that contribute to it. I've tried everything, certainly tightening core is one of them. I have a pretty strong core....doing 4-5 minute planks and a variety of other core workout. 

Its not that simple

[Jetsetr]

All good information for sure...

I like the tightening the core thoughts...will have give that a try as well, I can see how that would help...

Unfortunately my driver inconsistency is a huge factor.

i actually have a ski glove that the fingers were ripped off of by a slightly over enthusiastic driver... (I did let go that time and the handle almost made it back to the boat).

 

The Butterknife is SOOOO forgiving I can ski that behind  anything, never have any issues with deep water starts with that ski, however the shape is much different than my Senate or Vapor.

My boat is a small part of the problem as well...

It came from the Denver area and has a 4 blade SS prop that’s pitched for that altitude,(5500MSL) and I’m running it at 750’ MSL now...I’m going to have it re cupped to drop the RPM down a bit (motor is at 3000RPM @ 30mph) so it has  LOT of pull, especially with an over enthusiastic application of power during pull out. Recupping the prop will soften that up a bit.

These pointers and suggestions are all very good, and I will try them tomorrow. Will have to spend time with my drivers to help them with their consistency as well...

THANKS!

 

[lpskier]

@ScottScott Once you are hurt, you’re hurt.

[SHungerford]

I'm relatively new to course skiing, this is my second season.

I've been open water skiing since I was a kid and generally only had 1 deep water start per set to contend with. Last year when I started skiing at my local ski school and in the course at our lake house I had a big adjustment to make moving from 1 deep water start to 6-8 per set. Combined with bad deep water start habits and not enough emphasis on core strength (+ too much time sitting at a desk for work) led to back strain which took several weeks to sort out.

I definitely agree with a combination of @BraceMaker and @lpskier. I also use a velcro back brace under my vest at the start of the season to remind me to keep my core tightened until I rebuild my core muscles and can stop using the brace. I could definitely avoid this by doing more core strengthening throughout the year.

[ScottScott]

I have had many therapy suggestions, many involving some type of decompression. Some chiropractors have decompression therapy (like a variable traction...?) Some have suggested inversion table (I shy away from anything that has a long list of warnings, tho that suggestion came from an orthopedic we ski with.) I have seen videos of a variety of upright therapy either from hanging from a pullup bar to laying in different angles off furniture (most hanging therapy suggesting specify that you want to still rest your feet on the floor so you don't use TOO much force, and lighten the load on your arms.) I think the decompression and reasoning behind it make a lot of since. 

I have almost daily for a couple weeks now been hanging from a ring type pool float in the pool. The buoyancy of the water lightens that enough, but there is still enough gravity acting on my body that I do feel some stretch. Between that and using 22off instead of 15, I have been able to get back to 2-3 days a week. Hopefully that continues improvement. It was only 3-4 years ago I could go out on our boat on the weekend and do 10-12 passes twice, both Saturday and Sunday. 

[VONMAN]

@Ski_Dad I'm in the same boat, Less is better. I been telling my drivers nice easy pull, like your pulling a beginner. That and if you ski with a wide handle (13') don't grip the handle at the ends. Position your hands in the middle, hands touching. It's a been game changer for me and everyone I show who struggles with deep up starts.

[S1Pitts]

I am the same weight as @Jetsetr, double boots and rode a 69 inch Strada during my back rehab days. Pryor to injury I rode and curently ride a 67 but a few tidbits I learned along the way were that riding a bigger ski than "normal" required a different set up to make it all work for me. It was mentioned in earlier posts to get the ski "flat on top of the water" as quickly as possible to make starts easier. In order to make this happen I had to move the bindings all the way forward because at 190# I could not overcome the pressure the wider forebody ski was exerting on me. After that I popped up like I was on a wakeboard. Now to get the beast to turn decently I ran the fin forward almost as far as it could go and tweaked fin depth/length as required. 

If this holds true for you try move the front binding only ahead one or two holes to see if the starts become easier. If so now play with the setup until you get a good blend of starts and skiability. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by S1Pitts
spelling

[UWSkier]

back foot in butthole, handle by your front toes with arms straight.  Ski pointed slightly left if a lefty, right if a rightie.

Have driver drag you about 5 feet to start your motion going forward, then gently roll up.  When I used to start double booted as a big guy, I preferred a slight bit of forward momentum before holeshot so you're not digging out from a dead stop.  If you watch any tournaments, you'll see this is how everyone starts.

There's a misconception with big skiers that we need WOT holeshots.  While it's true that on some boats we might get up to WOT, it shouldn't be before the skier is already out of the water and starting to extend their feet away.  WOT with a guy plowing water is a good way to need a new mirror for your boat, or worse.

On the ski though, what's the Vapor doing for you that the Senate doesn't?  I skied a Vapor for several years before switching to the Senate, and I haven't looked back.

[OldboyII]

+1 to the question about Vapor VS Senate. I even would go deeper - Union easily does all 6 at 52 kmh / 16 m and amazingly easy to ride on for heavier skier. 

[Jetsetr]

For me the Vapor give me a more “solid” feeling with wake crossings, and it turns better. It’s more stable at higher speeds. It does what ever I ask of it with very little effort other than the physicality of skiing it(which I like). I can tell the difference between the Alloy Senate and the Vapor, the Vapor just gives me more confidence when I ski it, I know I have a LONG LONG way to go to begin to even reach the potential of the Vapor, but that’s half the journey, right?

I have skied the Union/Session  and it’s too “soft”. It’s close to my Butterknife but they won’t turn nearly as aggressively and they get a little spooky at 30+.

I planned on skiing the Butterknife for the 1st ride of the year and for the week to get back in ski shape after a long Wisconsin winter, but switched back to the Vapor the second day, it just felt better.

A poor analogy would be like riding my RC51 and getting on the Goldwing...they’re both motorcycles but one is a WSB with turn signals and the other is a Volkswagen without a roof or doors-apples and oranges.

For just goof off free skiing the Butterknife/Union is great, easy to ski and  super easy starts. The Vapor is a much more physically demanding ski and I like that part of it. And, I couldn’t pass up the new in the box never used demo ski price.

I wouldn’t call 190 “heavy”, I’m 6ft tall as well, and in very good physical condition for being 60.  Maybe that was just a generalization😉.

@S1Pitts will move the boots up 1 or 2 positions and see if that makes a difference. Worth a try...all it can do is not work!

[S1Pitts]

@Jetsetr If it helps with the starts just remember it will likely affect the turns because the ski is now longer behind the boots. At the least move the fin forward till your turns are back where you want them.

[Horton]

17 hours ago, UWSkier said:

back foot in butthole

dude I have a trademark on that coaching. back off.

🙂

[BraceMaker]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:35 AM, Horton said:

dude I have a trademark on that coaching. back off.

🙂

Sell the shirt.

[Mtea]

I’m 67 yo now and start better than I did 20 years ago.  Agree with comments above, flat ski, start from “in gear” not dead stop, etc. I will add to “engaging your core” to “engage everything”.  I tell people to make like you are a statue and the boat will pull you up.  Don’t fight it.  Also, when going calling for “in gear”, if you are in the correct position relative to your ski and the water you should notice that you will rise up ever so slightly as you gently move forward.  If you don’t, or if you start to go down lower in the water, you are definitely not in the correct position.  Finally, if you are wearing fashionable baggy swim shorts, swallow your pride and get some skin-tight shorts.  This will reduce water resistance and make it consistent.  With the baggy shorts, sometimes it felt like an open parachute in the water; sometimes not.  Switching to tight shorts was one of the best things I did to have consistent easy starts.

[Gale K]

Mtea, great point on the shorts, and one I'd forgotten about. Many years ago, my shorts ballooned out creating an immediate drogue chute. As I was trying to change positions during the pullout to compensate for the increased drag, my back did an immediate "zipper" bottom to top and was tweaked for several days. Lesson learned. I'm always in a shorty, neoprene shorts, or a drysuit. Never again just shorts just to alleviate that potential issue.

Other poster about buoyancy above... I can totally tell a difference in the amount of time it takes to pull me out (and I'm all of 145#) between being in a more buoyant drysuit situation vs. my shorty and comp vest. Takes noticeably longer (we're talking fractions of seconds, but it is noticable) when I'm back in the wetsuit.

If you're struggling, go with more floatation. It helps.

[Horton]

@BOS_Shirts no

🙂