What do you see ( Joel Howley )

[Horton]

[MISkier]

Really good handle control.

[wawaskr]

Compound Fracture pending......

[Drago]

The "reverse C" that everyone now bags on. 
very pronounced change of ski direction in about 3' (up course)

No tan

Short shorts

[6balls]

Elbows pinned to the vest, two hands, open chest, funny front boot, maintaining momentum outbound, and a position I never achieve off the second wake that lots of skiers better than me do.  

[CharlieThreeThree]

More than Joel does with his eyes closed like that

[Wish]

Not what you are looking for but the biggest difference I saw was in and out of the turn where the ski was far more still and evenly planed with no significant over or under turn compared to anyone else's.  I attribute that to the boot.  Very little fine motor muscle movements of lower leg (ankle/foot) gets transferred to the ski. Weight shifting center of mass seems to be dampened as well by the inability to flex the front ankle a great deal either by intention or by accident. He's, for lack of better terms, stuck overtop of the ski and in the right place. The only thing I see from the string of pics above is his elbows are welded to his sides. Which tells me he is following the handle path very well as keeping them there does not look physically demanding in the pics. 

[Horton]

@Drago I am not anti- reverse C but I do think it is most often misunderstood. I am going to have to go back and look at the CalPro images again and look for it. I think skiers might do it less then 10 years ago because of changes to boats and skis. IDK. 

In Joel's case he does not allow it to happen. His shoulders do not stay up & level as his ski swings out. 

[Horton]

Looking at a $h*t ton of CalPro images I was looking at skiers connection. It is one of my failings.

It is not just Joel, it is all the best skiers who are so good with the handle past centerline.

[BobF]

Elbows pinned to vest.  Then some more elbows pinned to vest.  Followed by the same elbows STILL pinned to said vest.  Truly impressive

[Mastercrafter]

What's this reverse C you speak of?

 

[Drago]

@HortonThat was not aimed at you, I thought you were a proponent of reverse C. Lots of things are misunderstood. There are several ways to skin a cat.

@Mastercrafter, I’m not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's when the skier is off his pulling edge but his upper body is still away from the boat in a "pulling" position.

[Mastercrafter]

7 minutes ago, Drago said:

@HortonThat was not aimed at you, I thought you were a proponent of reverse C. Lots of things are misunderstood. There are several ways to skin a cat.

@Mastercrafter, I’m not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's when the skier is off his pulling edge but his upper body is still away from the boat in a "pulling" position.

Thanks, no sarcasm here. Just trying to follow along.

[Cooper_Trelawney]

I think this is a pretty good example of the Reverse-C.

Tom Poole at the LA Night Jam at Bennett's. 

[Horton]

@Drago I didn't think you were directing your comments at me.

My objection to conversations about reverse c is that I think many readers think it is a position that they should try to achieve as opposed to the result of the ski swinging out and shoulders staying level and high. To be clear, I am a proponent of level shoulders and the ski swinging out I just don't think trying to get your body in that banana motion is specifically something you try to do.

In the case of Joel, if you find enough pictures or enough video, I'm sure you will find an example where it looks like he gets in that position but in general i think you can draw a line down his spine and then down to his ankle and it will always be a straight line compared to somebody like Freddy or his brother Terry. With those guys you can clearly see the ski swinging in such a way that it forces his body into that arc.

obviously everybody with some level of line control is going to have some arc through edge change.

[Wish]

“Good with the handle past centerline”. What does that mean to you @Horton??  

To me it’s super hard to do anything with the handle if you are separating from it of CL. That’s a result of previous moves/techniques in the pass. To achieve it, you have to understand what allows for it to even happen. As mentioned Joel looks to have little load in those pics (no idea what line length but guessing an early one) allowing him to maintain that connection. 

[Horton]

As I am thinking about this thread I might possibly be having a minor epiphany.

@Wish“Good with the handle past centerline” is a very imprecise way of describing keeping the power of the boat attached to the skier’s mass farther off the second wake / or / the skier not relinquishing the tension of the rope after centerline ( @adamcord will likely text me when he reads this and call me a dufus )  

Back to @Drago : I wonder if a less pronounced or later “Reverse C” is the result a skier not only keeping the power of the boat attached to their mass but keeping it attached lower on their body. If the handle comes part-way out at edge change so the power of the boat is attached to the skiers shoulders then the Reverse C become dramatic.  The lower the attachment the less the C is apparent.

I am thinking out loud here. If I have this totally wrong I am all ears for the explanation. Thinking about Fred's skiing and doubting the idea but it is worth contemplating. 

[Dano]

Like @Drago noted,  his ski is rapidly rotating out of angle to follow the handle path, this allows him keep his elbows pinned as he swings up high on the boat.  

[Drago]

2 hours ago, Horton said:

As I am thinking about this thread I might possibly be having a minor epiphany.

@Wish“Good with the handle past centerline” is a very imprecise way of describing keeping the power of the boat attached to the skier’s mass farther off the second wake / or / the skier not relinquishing the tension of the rope after centerline ( @adamcord will likely text me when he reads this and call me a dufus )  

Back to @Drago : I wonder if a less pronounced or later “Reverse C” is the result a skier not only keeping the power of the boat attached to their mass but keeping it attached lower on their body. If the handle comes part-way out at edge change so the power of the boat is attached to the skiers shoulders then the Reverse C become dramatic.  The lower the attachment the less the C is apparent.

I am thinking out loud here. If I have this totally wrong I am all ears for the explanation. Thinking about Fred's skiing and doubting the idea but it is worth contemplating. 

Imho, I think you're on track with that thinking  @Horton

[TallSkinnyGuy]

I like how Wish described it:

"The only thing I see from the string of pics above is his elbows are welded to his sides. Which tells me he is following the handle path very well as keeping them there does not look physically demanding in the pics."

This is what makes sense to me regarding elbows pinned to the vest. I don't understand how anyone could keep their elbows on the vest after centerline if their ski were traveling too straight to the shoreline (i.e. away from the natural handle path). It seems to me the ability to keep elbows pinned to the vest like Howley is doing is a result of pointing the ski in exactly the right direction to follow the path of the handle when the line is tight. But then, I am a novice skier.

[Horton]

@TallSkinnyGuy 

interesting. I would note that pointing the ski on a path way outside the handle path generally only happens when if you're on your down edge past centerline ( pull too long).  if your edge change happens close enough to center line your ski will automatically point along the handle path and then slightly outside as you attain width.

my assumption is that Joel is exerting more strength off the second wake to stay extra connected then he is anywhere else in the pass. That's what I think I see is happening in those three frames at the top of the thread.

 

[ALPJr]

Thinking back to @Bruce_Butterfield ‘s article Handle Control, it seems that a skier with a higher pull point from the shoulders (separated) looks more like a regular C after the second wake 

[LeonL]

@ALPJr I resemble that comment!

[6balls]

You can be "too outbound" in your thinking.  As above comment about following handle path--you need to stay with the path to keep tension and elbows pinned on the vest.  Early in my skiing days I was all about outbound trajectory but that forced an abrupt change from handle control and leverage to none just giving it up because my trajectory demanded it (even though my uninformed head at the time thought that it was helping me "get wide and early" and allowing me to put on the brakes after my much to long and large pull).