Boots vapor vs Reflex

[Dano]

Does anybody have a some insight as to how these two boots compare when mounting and measuring as per manufacturer recommendations?  For instance Radar says to measure to the lower stitch line at the heal, and Reflex looks like they measure to the rear most part of the heal.  from pics of those 2 bindings it looks like the Reflex measurement would place the foot significantly further forward when using the same measurement to the back of the ski.  

[skialex]

In my experience with both boots… there is no straight forward answer. If you tighten the plate and clip each boot on and measure per manufacturer recommendation, you will get deferent numbers.

I measure with a reflex boot, set it at the number I want and then put the radar boot on and move the plate 1/8 back. From my experience this is as close to the position you want to put the front binding as possible ie factory recommended or a the position you want. Then you might need to play a little. But this awkward method works for me when I try a ski and want a starting point for my boots.

[Dano]

@skialexThanks for the advice.  I don’t have a reflex boot to compare it too is the problem.  In your scenario above, if your reflex boot measured say 29.5 do you know what the measurement works out to on the radar to the bottom stitch?

Edited September 7, 2023 by Dano

[Horton]

@Dano Every factory says to measure a little differently. Generally I think if you follow each company's method you will be pretty close. Now if you want to be exact going from one boot to another you need to find your inside ankle bone in each boot and use that as your measuring point. It can be a project but it is the most definitive thing you can do when changing boots or liners. 

[Dano]

@Horton thanks for the input.  I have read the threads on ankle bone and agreed that is a good method.  But it only works if you have 2 boots to compare and I do not.  I have a radar boot on a D3 ski.   I chose the Reflex binding to compare it too since it seems like the most popular boot being used and the most likely candidate for the boot used when ski manufacturers arrive at recommended settings. I was looking for a more direct comparison of somebody that has both "if reflex boot measures xx then your Radar boot will measure xx  and your foot will then be in the same spot".   I'm just curious to know if my set up is close to what others are finding success on.  I've had my binding all over the place and have skied well on it, problem is I'm not good at setting up a ski,  so It's hard for me to tell if I'm in the right spot or just adjusting myself to suit an inferior set up.  if i knew i have my boot as close as possible to where it is intended to be perhaps it would help guide me. 

Ya I know this topic has been repeated over and over but in none of the threads has it been definitive.  I get it stock is just a recommendation and each skier may adjust forward or back to suit.  But I still feel like having the knowledge of where actual recommended is, would make things easier.

[Horton]

well I'm not really going to answer your question but I'm going to try to get you close.

If you measure whichever boot according to that manufacturer's spec and you ski well then you did good. Stock settings are generally pretty good, but they are starting places. Unless you're skiing poorly, I don't think you need to be insecure that you're missing some level of goodness. 

I will tell you that when I was in the previous generation radar boots i measured to the bottom stitch as you are doing. I would then without thinking twice, put a Reflex binding on the same ski and measure the Reflex as per the Reflex instructions. I'm sure it's not exact but it's pretty good.

You're concern is well founded, but I don't think you should lose sleep over it.

[Dano]

@Horton thank you very much for sharing.    

[teammalibu]

I run my Radar boot about 1/8 inch back compared to my Reflex!

[jnan66]

When designing a new boot it would have been a nice thing to have a vertical surface built in on the back of the heel as a measuring point

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

If you have been running a reflex and switched to a vapor boot, we found we were running the vapor boot an 1/8 forward from where the reflex was. That was the change I made when I switched. 

29 1/2 on a vapor boot equals 29 3/8 on a reflex. 

[C5Quest]

@ColeGiacopuzzi you’re running  29 3/8 with Vapor boot on your 2024 66 Vapor correct?  

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@C5QuestThat is correct! 

[BraceMaker]

17 hours ago, jnan66 said:

When designing a new boot it would have been a nice thing to have a vertical surface built in on the back of the heel as a measuring point

Skip that when manufacturing skis they should mark the boot position on the ski.  Just a line across it at whatever position ankle bone or heel of boot.  Alpine and cross country skis have these marks.  

If they'd just include that mark you could run a microjust and reference boot moves to the line.  Then all binding plates could have a V notch or whatever to indicate the boot alignment.  Nine of this is hard.

[Dano]

@BraceMaker I have to agree with those words.  a line across the ski with binding plates marked for ankle bone placement, v notch on plates indicating where ankle bone will be located. It's not that the current system is hard to measure, it's just that currently there are too many variables to know how the manufacturer arrived at recommended setting.  Back of heel is no good as it changes with foot size and style/manufacturer.  

In my messing around at least I have learned that I can like binding forward and binding back but for different reasons.  Inbetween or too far either way does not feel great.  Forward is more work behind the boat to create the same space and may feel more stable into and around the buoy. I think it may require a skier to be technically better than binding back though.    Back seems to create space more readily, but can feel a little loose into the buoy,  allows for more aggressive skier movements without being penalized.  Or maybe I'm just all over the map and need to quit messing around and just go ski. Which is probably more of what is reality than anything I just typed.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Dano

[BraceMaker]

Yup if radar says a ski gets 29.5" and puts a line there would anyone complain? I get that it's hard to put a top sheet graphic down accurately but just do it with a sharpie.

You can do it yourself make a line set your plate eyeball it ski till you are happy scribe your plate.

[skialex]

Pencil works great on most ski. Every time I move my bindings I put a pencil mark on the ski. I have a mikrojust… 

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but having one single reference line on a ski doesn't change the fact that your ankle bone sits in a different place when it comes to different boots. That's why this thread was created. That's why the vapor boot is run in a different spot than the reflex. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by ColeGiacopuzzi

[BraceMaker]

@ColeGiacopuzzi 

Yes so bear with me.

You get a brand new ski, the chart says 29.5" to the heel of the front boot.  Draw a line across the ski at 29.5" from the tail.

Drop your boot on it with the heel at 29.5" and ski it and figure out where you like your boot.  Now take and mark the binding plate where it hits that line.Now you get another new ski and it says 29" on the chart so you draw a line at 29" and then put your boot on it so your marks on your binding plate.

If the factory recommended numbers are meaningful in any way shape or form what I just described should work for everyone.  If it works for no one then the factory numbers are meaningless and should just be ignored.

In downhill you'd have a ski with the true center marked and then the ski tech would measure forwards or backwards from the true center a small accurate distance they wouldn't bust out a tape measure and go from the boot back 30" across a fin block through maybe a rear boot that has to be removed to measure accurately.

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

I need a flow chart

[Dano]

@Horton I really wasn't intending for this thread to go down this rabbit hole again.  @ColeGiacopuzzi  what I was suggesting is that manufacturers could mark their plates where  their binding places the ankle bone specific for each size boot.    Skis could be marked where the ankle bone was intended to be located. Line up the mark of any binding plate to the line on the ski and go ski.  Individual skiers may prefer to be forward or back of that still.   But I think it would get initial set ups much closer.   I don't know if it's even worth having the discussion still since I know skiers with my exact ski  and some are bindings forward (29.75")and others are back (29"), which is a much bigger spread than I had thought I would see. none of them are at factory measurement.  I don't know if those measurements differ so much do to binding style or more just to individual preference.  I'm quite sure I have mine where I like them now.  But I spent a lot of sets experimenting with different positions and trying to give them an honest effort to adapt/ski well at each binding location. It has been an interesting and frustrating process.

 

[DW]

Just my opinion, it is a very small sport at the upper level with equipment evolving at a pretty decent clip.  There has been a lack of dedicated standardization and a lot of small entrepreneurs developing equipment (Jon Travers being an excellent example) thus a lack of commonality with equipment.   Even with the standardization of the binding plate hole pattern the different brands have them in different locations (equivalent binding position for a Reflex on an HO and Goode has them in different holes of the plate).  Fin blocks are also non standard and we have multiple options from small shops.  Heck, no two manufacturers even measure things the same!  So @Dano be very happy boots are built with location adjustments built in, for snow skis you really only have one shot to get it right when you get out the drill.

Edited September 12, 2023 by DW

[OldboyII]

Could anyone advice how to buy reflex plate matching to Vapor boot? Is there a single source to buy both plate and boot or Reflex plate should be purchased separately and adjusted to vapor boot? Thanks!

[aupatking]

@OldboyII it depends what size Vapor boot, ultimately. Reflex only does even sizes. If you get a size 11 Vapor boot, you’ll either drill some new holes in the Reflex plate or just buy a Vapor Carbon plate. In which case you’re needing to buy the release mechanism and toe loop from Reflex. If you’re in an even size boot you could just buy the whole plate setup from Reflex and you should be good to go.

I feel like I’m running the Vapor boot a bit, maybe 1/4”, back from where I ran the Supershell. If that helps at all. 

[alex38]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:18 PM, ColeGiacopuzzi said:

If you have been running a reflex and switched to a vapor boot, we found we were running the vapor boot an 1/8 forward from where the reflex was. That was the change I made when I switched. 

29 1/2 on a vapor boot equals 29 3/8 on a reflex. 

@ColeGiacopuzzi

dp you think this 1/4 inch compensation applies to the difference in base shape between a 2021 Vapor carbitex and the 2022 new hard shell style Vapor? Thank you.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@alex38 its only an 1/8 difference, but no that only applies to the difference between reflex and the new style Vapor boot. 

[vtmecheng]

7 hours ago, alex38 said:

@ColeGiacopuzzi

dp you think this 1/4 inch compensation applies to the difference in base shape between a 2021 Vapor carbitex and the 2022 new hard shell style Vapor? Thank you.

Just got the new Vapor. Before I removed my Vector from the MOB plate, I marked my ankle location on the ski with my fibula perpendicular to the ski top surface. Mounted the Vapor boot to the MOB plate and my ankle is at the same spot with the same plate location. Back of both boots also measured the same DFT at this location.

[Beezer]

Will a Vapor boot fit directly to a reflex plate without mods? Or do I need a vapor plate with the vapor boot?

[C5Quest]

Yes and no.  You can mount the Vapor boot on a reflex plate with the Reflex release.   You’ll have to play around with the hole pattern to get a snug fit.   I seem to remember the reflex fitting even sized boots and the Vapor plate fitting odd sized boots better?  Might want to check on that. 
The other issue that some have with mounting the Vapor boot to the reflex plate is cant or angle.   Due to the shape of the Vapor boot toe it will point a few degrees outward and not align your foot on centerline.   I believe it was a left boot would point left and right boot points right.    The first gen Vapor plate did the same thing.   Radar came out with a second gen Vapor plate that fixed the problem.   The new plate has 2 rows of holes for the reflex toe bar now.   Just mount in the correct holes for either right or left and boot is straight along centerline.     If you order off the radar site I would call to be sure you are getting the correct plate.   The one pictured on the website is the old plate .  
Hope this helps.  If you dig around there are a couple old threads on this topic.