Are your bindings in the right place?

[Horton]

I did an experiment back in 2015 where I tried to see if my foot would be in the same place on the ski with different bindings and the same measurements. The original images from that experiment are lost so I started to recreate it yesterday.

I did the following: I used a steel rule and a sharpie to mark the tip of my inside ankle bone and then extended that up my calf. See the image below. Frankly, this is where the whole idea unravels. After screwing around with this for about 2 hours I came to the conclusion that it was too hard to know if the ruler was accurately in line with my ankle bone. Remember 1/10^th of an inch is too much variance.

I then marked the plate with a line that matches the recommended measurement point. So under the cleat for the HO and traditional Reflex, & where the boot meets the plate for the Radar. What I found is that with these bindings and my size 10 ½, there is about 3.4” from my inside ankle bone to the rear measure point.

Anyhow I repeated the process a bunch of times with the Radar Vapor, HO Syndicate, Reflex White Cuff and Reflex SuperShell boots. The Radar, HO, and the traditional style Reflex all measured similar but not really the same. There was about a 1/8” +/- delta. With the SuperShell, I measured the with the same method as the traditional Reflex and that gave me a 3/8” delta but in retrospect I think if I measured it like the Radar ( where the boot meets the plate) the difference would be much less.

The real problem is that I could not confidently mark on the plate where the tip of my inside ankle bone is. If money was no object I would band saw thousands of dollars of bindings so I could see my ankle & I would create a chart showing the exact differences between the boots measurements.

I feel pretty confident saying there is about 1/8^th between the Radar and the Reflex. The HO and the Reflex are about the same.

What I am sure of is that when you use one brand of ski and another brand of boot you should not be surprised if you have to move the boot forward or backward to get it where it belongs.

[disland]

T-factor vs Reflex would be super interesting

[SkiRV]

1/8" in which direction?

[Horton]

@SkiRV

29 1/2 vapor boot equals 29 3/8 on reflex

before you go changing anything.... this whole exercise is in relation to stock settings, changing boots or sharing settings with other skiers. if you've been skiing with your boot at some setting and you like it, don't worry about it.

additionally, if your boot is the same brand as your ski, then stock is stock and you don't need to worry about any of this.

[Drago]

36 minutes ago, Horton said:

additionally, if your boot is the same brand as your ski, then stock is stock and you don't need to worry about any of this.

Tap on your binding with a small hammer to find your medial malleolus. Place your bare foot against a wall and use a square to get your heel-to-ankle distance, then you can measure to your ankle from now on

[Horton]

@Drago

I think I understand what you're saying. if I understand .... the problem is the shape of each binding is slightly different and a little bit makes a big difference.

Had to read that a few more times. Interesting. Going to have to play with that.

 

[skialex]

1 hour ago, Horton said:

@SkiRV

29 1/2 vapor boot equals 29 3/8 on reflex

before you go changing anything.... this whole exercise is in relation to stock settings, changing boots or sharing settings with other skiers. if you've been skiing with your boot at some setting and you like it, don't worry about it.

additionally, if your boot is the same brand as your ski, then stock is stock and you don't need to worry about any of this.

I use the same plate for reflex and radar and with the radar boot on I’ve settled 1/8 back on the mikrojust in relation to reflex shell.

[Drago]

4 hours ago, Horton said:

@Drago

I think I understand what you're saying. if I understand .... the problem is the shape of each binding is slightly different and a little bit makes a big difference.

 

Agreed. this might clarify or confuse more:

Your ankle is the constant, the difference of your bare foot and to where you measure at the "heel" of your binding is obviously how thick the binding is. So, if you find your ankle in your binding, mark it with a silver marker or whatever, find where you measure to on the binding, then just do the math. Bob's your uncle. 
The big variable/unknown is who defines "stock" and how far their ankle is from their heel. If Joe Cash says, "29 5/8 is money", and I go to 29 5/8, my ankle is 1/2" too far forward (not money)

 

[Horton]

@Drago I haven't tried your method, but for me the confusion is identifying exactly where the tip of the inside ankle bone is when my foot is inside of the boot. if I could always find it from the outside then it's easy.

[Drago]

I'm considering a Foot-o-Scope 

[chrislandy]

11 hours ago, Drago said:

Tap on your binding with a small hammer to find your medial malleolus. Place your bare foot against a wall and use a square to get your heel-to-ankle distance, then you can measure to your ankle from now on

On first reading I through this was going to say tap on the binding to find the resonant frequency of your ankle... I need more coffee

[ALPJr]

Hard to argue with Joe Cash’s settings

 

[The_MS]

What has more effect on the ski, the plate positions or the dead nuts center ankle/foot position? Is there not pressure from the plate edges down to the ski? 

[Horton]

@The_MS I don't think the plate is much of a factor. I mean we're splitting hairs so certainly the plate makes some difference. 

your foot transfers all the force of your body down into the ski. I don't know if it's technically correct to say it is the center of your heel or the center of your ankle, but clearly foot placement is critical.

The reality is if you're running an HO boot and I'm running a Radar boat and we share thin and fin & numbers there's likely to be an eighth of an inch difference between our foot placement.

[The_MS]

@Horton I have 2 Vapor boots and recently had to move 1 of my boots forward on the plate to get where I needed on my KD. My plate is 1/2 in forward of where it was but my binding location is only 1/8 forward of where it was. Huge difference in performance. It just had me thinking about plate pressure  

 

[Drago]

With ski boots it's a bit easier because we're finding a spot that hurts, so the tapping-hammer method is very effective 😬

We also mark the liner with black lip stick, put the boot on, and it marks the inside. With black hardshells, idk, do they make silver or white lipstick? Dry erase markers work too, but I don't know of those come in light colors either.

[Horton]

@The_MS 1/8th boot move is a lot. I am inclined to think that is the change you feel but maybe different plate position could make some difference.  

[The_MS]

I agree but just food for thought

[skialex]

@Drago lipstick as a measuring tool…? please no…😊

[BraceMaker]

Step 1 - convince the manufacturers to put a boot line across ski as do alpine and nordic ski brands instead of a toe point or center mark just a crosswise line at the manufacturer boot heel distance for that size ski.

Step 2 - place your boot on the ski and using a ruler or similar tool across the boot line so the heel touches the ruler.  Snug down the boot.

Step 3 - ski and tune.

Step 4 - once you're content on boot tuning mark your boot plate at that line.

Step 5 - test other skis and see if this mark "aligns" on all skis or not.  If when you ski a multitude of skis and each one gets a different mark on the plate what you've now established is that the manufacturer's recommendation might just be meaningless.

[Dano]

Seems to me that all we are looking for are reference points to align a boot to a specific point on a ski.  If manufacturers were to mark their plates exactly half way of the foot sole or any other standardized point that is the same for all manufacturers, and skis came marked where the binding mark should line up.  there would be no more guess work of where to measure, what binding are you measuring, what size foot etc.......  line the marks up, go ski.  that set up may not work for you but i'll bet it gets more skiers closer to the right spot for their first ride.

[The_MS]

Lets get to the point where all hole patterns are set the same. With the number of skis I test, I need to have 3 rear bindings. 

[Horton]

Yea good luck with that.

[Mateo_Vargas]

@Horton's leg tattoo looks like the best solution

[cruznski]

On 11/17/2023 at 5:36 AM, The_MS said:

What has more effect on the ski, the plate positions or the dead nuts center ankle/foot position? Is there not pressure from the plate edges down to the ski? 

a very good question. In ski boots it is all transferred via the front and back binding. I recall where Andy cut out a foot hole in the plate and his (front) foot was on the ski, perhaps ages ago but.. If you have an elastomer pad, an stiff or stiffer plate, a reflex type boot, maybe an orthotic or at  least molded liner and then that the plate is screwed on to the top layer of the ski.. well who knows that answer.  I think plateless would be great. 

[DW]

For one of the collegiate skiers - a free body diagram with all the load paths detailed 😆