Mikro-Just front and back with full boots ?

[swbca]

I just received a Mikro-Just in the mail for the front T-Factor boot.  The REAR T-Factor boot has 5/16 spacing for the mounting screws.  Would you modify the 5/16 slots on the back plate to match your new preferred Mikro-Just position on the front, or use 2 Mikro-Just devices ?  

Edited November 21, 2023 by swbca

[The_MS]

If you can, go with both bindings so you can move them the same with each other 

[Horton]

Double Mikro would be best but back boots are not nearly as critical as front boots. If your spread changes by a 1/4" or 3/8" and your front foot is in the perfect spot that is fine. I am guilty of being a little flippant about changing my spread until it exceeds 3/8" and then I tighten it up.

I say that but I have also seen @FWinter check his spread with a Micrometer and make it perfect.

[skialex]

You can put your rear boot on another plate, like a reflex g10 rear and easily add a second mikrojust 

[skialex]

Not my preference or suggestions, but you can cut the slots vertically on your plate and use a flat piece of aluminum over it or g10 or oversized washers… 

[MDB1056]

To be precise  - use 2, but I agree with @Horton as I'm not as critical on my rear binding. Running double tfactors, but Mikro-just only on the front.  

[DW]

The single plate concept is a good solution and my approach would be to remove the existing bottom plates and attach both bindings to the single plate.   Advantages - no added weight to the binding package (assuming your full length plate weighs same/close to the individual plates), both boots move together and existing footbed height remains as current.  Disadvantages - you will want a good drill press or mill as all the little holes and slots will keep you busy, rear boot rotation will require full plate removal and you will have to create the accommodating slots or holes to facilitate.  Or, slot the existing rear plate to accommodate the move and use star washers to hopefully eliminate slippage.  Note - I observe that my rear boot will migrate to it's favorite position rather than staying put so that tells me a fair amount of rotational torque is exerted by the rear foot.  Kind of a hint on why rear RTP's are in favor.

[Zman]

@swbca If you had not already purchased the Mikro-just, the Radar Carbon Sequence single plate would have made a great option for mounting both boots. It has micro-adjustment built in.

The aluminum Sequence Plate would be a great choice for using just one Mikro-just and keep your boot spacing as-is when making front boot adjustments.

[aupatking]

I was going to say what @Zman said. He’s wise almost to his years 😁. I’ve never taken apart a T-Factor though, so I don’t know if you can remove the plate and put them on another like a lot of other boots. Can you?

I also agree with @Horton that the back binding is not as critical. I have an old write up by Schnitz that says the back boot is not as sensitive. That’s worth way more than my opinion. I’m sure there are other opinions. 

 

[swbca]

RE Radar Carbon Sequence plate.   When a ski flexes, the bottom skin gets longer and top gets shorter.  If the fasteners near the ends of the plate don't allow slippage it would affect the flex of the ski . . like laminating another layer of carbon to the top of the ski.   Does use of this place assume the fasteners let the plate slip a little to avoid this ?    

[thager]

Not sure about the Carbon Sequence Plate but the original metal Sequence plate came with a set of special washers that the plate floated on allowing plate flex movement. I assume the Carbon plate does also. Anyone confirm this?

[jjackkrash]

I run the carbon sequence plate and it is attached at just the front, back and the middle and floats a bit on a thin rubber pad and it definitely allows for flex.  The plate itself is light and not nearly as stiff as the ski.  I would be hard pressed to believe it materially impacts the flex of the ski on the water.  Once set to stock it is very easy to adjust the bindings front and back and not worry about front/rear spacing, whether double boots or RTP.  

[swbca]

@jjackkrash @DW It looks like T-Factors plates can be replaced with the Carbon Sequence Plate.  In the picture currently 8 screws through the rear T-Factor aluminum plate into the boot.

Any issues with having all the screws going through new counter-sunk holes in the sequence plate to match the boots ? 

I am assuming I would figure out the position of boots on the plate, so I would only have 8 new holes for the rear boot etc.  No new slots.

Edited November 22, 2023 by swbca

[DW]

Not that I can see, looks like a good solution.  Tell the pup not to overtighten the screws.  I assume you can get the boot forward enough to avoid any plate interference when you go for final assembly.  I have trimmed many plates to get boots close enough together.

[Zman]

14 hours ago, aupatking said:

I was going to say what @Zman said. He’s wise almost to his years 😁.

 

Ouch! A lot of years.... a big milestone in April.

[Horton]

@swbca

I don't believe the whole patterns are interchangeable between the D3 and the Radar plates.

[swbca]

Do you mean the insert patterns on a D3 ski won't work with the Carbon Sequence plate ?  Or the boot fastener pattern on the Radar plate won't work with the D3 boots. ?    If I drill all new holes in the Radar plates for the D3 boots, does that matter ?

Edited November 22, 2023 by swbca

[Horton]

If you drill the Radar plate it will work 

[S1Pitts]

I have drilled my Radar carbon plate(s) to accomodate bindings. The boot placement slots on the plate are a little coarse so getting the boots right for me was a challenge.

Just so you know the material around the hole needs to be relieved so the head of the screw buries into the carbon and does not damage the top of your ski. I use a gasket hole punch to remove a clean circle of the rubber pad, layout and drill the holes. Then use a Dremel milling bit 3/8 dia that has a flat end mounted in a drill press to carefully mill the clearance for the head. It is easy to go too deep and leave the plate a little thin under the bolt head so use the depth stop if your drill press has one other wise go slow checking how much has been removed. OEM removes 50% of the plate thickness.

Wear gloves/face mask and vacuum as you drill/mill. Carbon dust and slivers are dangerous.

[swbca]

3 hours ago, S1Pitts said:

I have drilled my Radar carbon plate(s) to accomodate bindings. The boot placement slots on the plate are a little coarse so getting the boots right for me was a challenge.

Just so you know the material around the hole needs to be relieved so the head of the screw buries into the carbon and does not damage the top of your ski. I use a gasket hole punch to remove a clean circle of the rubber pad, layout and drill the holes. Then use a Dremel milling bit 3/8 dia that has a flat end mounted in a drill press to carefully mill the clearance for the head. It is easy to go too deep and leave the plate a little thin under the bolt head so use the depth stop if your drill press has one other wise go slow checking how much has been removed. OEM removes 50% of the plate thickness.

Wear gloves/face mask and vacuum as you drill/mill. Carbon dust and slivers are dangerous.

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I'm glad I saved my leather hole punch set.   

Edited November 23, 2023 by swbca

[skialex]

@swbca if you already have purchased a Mikrojust for the front binding, then you already  have a countersunking drill bit that was included. Use that to countersink the screw holes, or a size up from that as the heads of tfactor mounting screws are a little wider than 8-32 screws. But I believe you will be ok with that bit. I have put bindings directly on a sequence plate, just avoid the slots made for mounting radar boots on it. 
have installed reflex hardware in front and rubber binding at the back… 

personally I prefer separate plates, I don’t want a fixed front to rear boot spacing. I want them to be able to move separately 

[swbca]

@S1Pitts This is the adjusting feature on the Radar Sequence plate as it appears on the @Horton Youtube Video he produced explaining how it works.

This  center point of the Sequence plate shown in the photo is locked down so its not going to move when the ski flexes. The two ends of this long plate have to move some trace amount when the ski flexes, otherwise there would be big shear forces on the front and back inserts, and possibly effect the flex of the ski .  I am using the Sequence plate on on a KD Titanium with T-Factor bindings.  Does Radar have something special to accommodate the movement caused by ski-flex at the end points of this long plate on the ski ??  Or would standard aluminum D3 cup-washers let the ends move a small amount ?

Afterthought - - - I won't have the sequence plate from Performance Ski & Surf until next week.  Maybe there is something in the hardware bag that comes with the plate.

Edited November 25, 2023 by swbca

[S1Pitts]

@swbca I have the sequence plate installed on my D3 R2 currently and have used it on a 2020 Omega and a Denali C85. I have skied the R2 and Omega without the plate and modified the single boot plates to get the exact boot placements to do an A/B comparison to determine just what effect the sequence plate has on the ski.

The R2 felt virtually the same but the Omega had a different feel and I prefered it without the sequence plate. The Omega acceleration felt simular but it drastically changed the turns to a hard hooking type. I really liked the C85 but was not able to try it without the full plate. 

The sequence plate locking tab has very small pins to index it on the plate. The locking tab being made of plastic I think  these pins would shear quite easily if there were large loads being applied to them. Looking at the underside of the plate there is evidence of the pad wearing under the "ends " so I believe there must be some movement of the plate allowing the ski to flex. How much it changes will probably be different with each ski design. The plate is supplied with the standard Radar binding scews with plastic washers. I tighten the end screws snug but not super locked down .

[swbca]

With most skis, I doubt if the stiffness of sequence plate changes the feel of the ski as much as having the ends of the plate locked down too tight.

Edited November 26, 2023 by swbca

[The_MS]

I would think that you need the plate ends locked down 

[swbca]

@The_MS @Horton I was trying to figure out how to avoid clamping down the front and back of the Radar Sequence Plate.  Today I found Radar already has the solution.  The plate comes with metal spacers that fit in the front and rear slots of the plate.  The screw / washer tighten down on the metal spacers that are in contact with the inserts.  With these spacers there is no clamp-force from the screws on the plate.  The Sequence plate can float freely front/back, and the spacers prevent the plate from moving left/right.

This was how radar did this some prior year.  I will have the plate I ordered next week to see if this is still how they do it in the current model.

[The_MS]

My point is that you dont want any lift of the plate off of the ski. 

[Horton]

@swbca 

Radar has been doing something like this for as long as I can remember. The center holes are firmly attached and the front and back to holes are allowed to slide.

[skialex]

3 hours ago, Horton said:

@swbca 

Radar has been doing something like this for as long as I can remember. The center holes are firmly attached and the front and back to holes are allowed to slide.

@Horton Ho has been doing this this far more before Radar, with the animal and similar boots. Radar started it with the aluminum sequence plate. I like the concept. reflex had something with similar result with the bonds  or bond plate that had studs but you didn’t have to tighten down the nuts as they where lock nuts… so the plates were kind of floating while in use….

 

[Horton]

@skialex the question is if anyone can really feel the difference. I have been guilty of having really loose screws on occasion and have never tightened everything down and then thinking that the ski felt different the next ride. In theory the ski may have been stiffer but I could never feel it.

[skialex]

8 minutes ago, Horton said:

@skialex the question is if anyone can really feel the difference. I have been guilty of having really loose screws on occasion and have never tightened everything down and then thinking that the ski felt different the next ride. In theory the ski may have been stiffer but I could never feel it.

@Hortonyes I total agree with you, but once I had the experience to ski on very stiff prepreged carbon plates and next set, same ski, but with reflex soft so-called carbon plates and the difference was very noticeable.

from then after I pay attention to at least use soft plates or anyway plates made for skiing…!

 

[swbca]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:22 AM, Horton said:

@swbca

Radar has been doing something like this for as long as I can remember. The center holes are firmly attached and the front and back to holes are allowed to slide.

I checked with Radar . . . The Radar Brand Manager said the spacers have not been included in the Carbon Sequence Plate for many years and the parts that we have left over will not be compatible with the new carbon sequence plates. 

I made a spacer with 1/4" threaded aluminum tubing.  The screws tighten the tubing down against the insert as tight as you want.  The length of spacer controls how tight or loose the plate is to the top of the ski. Used 3/4" bolts to get plenty of thread in the insert.

 

This is the T-Factors on the Radar Carbon Sequence Plate.  The front boot was easy to install.  I have the rear boot angled so drilling the holes and countersinking had some some minor conflicts with existing slots in the plate.  The boots are positioned on the plate so the front boot is at 29 1/8" from the tail of the 66' KD Titanium ski when the Micro-Adjust is at the center of its range of adjustment.

Edited December 8, 2023 by swbca

[Horton]

@swbca I do think this is a lot of trouble for little or no ROI but if this keeps you thinking about skiing in the cold months don't let me discourage you. 

If you are doing all this to optimize flex, I have to ask if you have thought much about your spread. In the above image, your bindings look like they are very far apart. Having your feet an extra 1/4" or more apart will impact your skiing more than whatever change in flex you are gaining with your setup.

[swbca]

10 minutes ago, Horton said:

@swbca I do think this is a lot of trouble for little or no ROI but if this keeps you thinking about skiing in the cold months don't let me discourage you. 

If you are doing all this to optimize flex, I have to ask if you have thought much about your spread. In the above image, your bindings look like they are very far apart. Having your feet an extra 1/4" or more apart will impact your skiing more than whatever change in flex you are gaining with your setup.

My toes touch the front boot.  Exactly the same spacing as I had on the ski.   Foot spacing is the issue with dual release boots.  I don't want more spread and that's not easy to find.  Even the new T-Factor MOB has a piece of hardware on the back of the front boot..

My reason to do the Carbon plate was to speed up testing settings.  My ski partner and my home driver both have very short time windows for ski outings, so there isn't time for making changes in a given morning.   Have been frustrated having to wait a full day to try any small change.   So, Also bought a second KD fin block and fin for a quick change of settings.   For better or worse constantly testing changes has always been one of my favorite things about the sport.   

 

[Horton]

@swbca Ok. I wondered if the above image was deceiving in terms of spread.