Switching to boots with mechanical release to fit on a radar carbon sequence plate

[swbca]

I currently love my T-Factor boots so why change?

Years ago, I broke my arm when I put my arm through the handle when I fell forward hitting a ball.    It was no big deal because I just held onto the swim platform with my good arm and was pulled to the dock.  I ski too cautiously now because of that experience and don't want to be stuck in a binding in the middle of a lake with a broken angle.  Again the broken ankle is not the problem, it being stuck with no painless way out because it takes a lot of force to get a foot our of a T-factor front boot. 

I would like to get boots that can mount on the radar sequence plate because I just bought one of those.  I have custom mounted the T-Factors to the plate but that can be reversed.

What's the best choice in dual boots that will fit the Radar plate ? 
Does that mean having plate on plate or just new boot on plate?
How big a deal is it to learn how to ski again with that change ?
 

[Horton]

@swbca if you are going to go full Frankenstein then I suggest that you contact Mike at MOB https://www.mobsystemrelease.com/

[Octopus_Paxarbolis]

6 minutes ago, swbca said:

 I have custom mounted the T-Factors to the plate but that can be reversed.

why did you do that?

[MDB1056]

@swbca what size tfactors? 

[BraceMaker]

Honestly what you are describing is the reason to have some good medical scissors in the boat.  Cut the overlay.

[503Kento]

20 minutes ago, BraceMaker said:

Honestly what you are describing is the reason to have some good medical scissors in the boat.  Cut the overlay.

Or just unscrew the whole boot and let the medical staff cut it off or give you enough drugs so that they can pull it off. 😜

If you really wanted to save the boot, you could have someone dismantle it while it’s on your foot and slide it off.

[swbca]

4 hours ago, 503Kento said:

Or just unscrew the whole boot and let the medical staff cut it off or give you enough drugs so that they can pull it off. 😜

Removing the boot from the ski sounds like the best idea.  If you have ever had a broken bone from skiing, any movement is extremely painful.  The skier might be able to get himself sitting on the platform, but the ski will still be in the water until the boot is removed.  Having a screw driver tethered to a small pool float and some goggles for someone else to remove the boot is something I will keep in my boat if I keep using the T-Factors.  Its obvious this would never happen but it answers "What if".

[Drago]

@swbca I’m sorry, but what the heck are you talking about??

[aupatking]

Are you talking about drilling new holes, front and back for toe loops and release mechanisms?  If that’s where you’re going, it sounds a bit like you may be going safety to the point of being unsafe or, at least, less safe. 

I agree wit @Horton, if you’re going that far, you really need to contact @mmosley899 at MOB.

i have a pair of extremely sharp emergency scissors in the boat for just this type of emergency as @BraceMakersuggested above. Those thing could even cut a hard shell off.

[swbca]

@aupatking Not directly familiar with the various release systems.  But I can see now that release systems are not going to work on the Radar Sequence Plate, so scratch that !   Looking at the dual boot setup on MOB system, or maybe with any dual release system it forces a greater separation between your feet which I don't want.  With size 12 feet, the 'effective' spacing between my feet is already greater than for skiers with size 10 for example. 

It would be much simpler to use a front boot release product if I went back to an RTP, but I tried an RTP 2 years ago for a while and couldn't stay with it.   Decades ago I was skiing into 35off at 36 in tournaments with an RTP but once you use dual boots for several years its hard to switch back.  If I find there is no dual release option without increasing the spacing between feet I will give up on the mechanical release idea.

I will contact @mmosley899 to see if there is any dual release setup that works for me.

Without release boots, in the very rare event of an serious injury I will probably just equip my boat with the best tools for cutting boots or removing boots from the ski.  Such as @BraceMaker and @503Kento have suggested.  

***anyone have a specific suggestion on a scissor for cutting boots ??  I have the cheap throw away medical scissors used for cutting plaster casts but I don't think they would be the best for cutting the shell off a binding.

Thanks everyone for all the feedback . . . obviously I know little about boot release products but BOS is the fastest place to learn.

Edited December 7, 2023 by swbca
to say "thanks"

[aupatking]

I’ve never tried front and back Reflex style boots so I really don’t know what spacing requirements are. With the release in the rear, I can see how that may be an issue. I know Terry Winter used to run that setup. Maybe you could reach out to him.

the MOB release mechanism is on the front of the front boot and back of rear, if you went double, so I don’t know that there is a spacing issue with that setup

[BraceMaker]

2 hours ago, swbca said:

Without release boots, in the very rare event of an serious injury I will probably just equip my boat with the best tools for cutting boots or removing boots from the ski.  Such as @BraceMaker and @503Kento have suggested.  

 

I've had the joy of having a broken femur and having to hug my knee with a wiggly thigh and push the boot off my heel.  It sucked terribly.

Had there been a scissor in the boat atleast the overlays could have been cut off.  With the new Radar Vapor boot you could cut the boat string.

With the MOB the toe of the rear shell can extend onto the mid plate block so you can get them tight together.

[Drago]

Oh, ok,  I thought this thread was about mounting hardshells on a sequence plate. If it's about getting your binding off, the best way is to have a utility knife with a clean, sharp blade and cut just above the horseshoe and wherever else is needed after that. 
The second best way is unscrew all the screws. This takes time and I suggest that if your leg is broken you won't really care about a $250 binding. You probably won't want to use it again anyway.

Both of these tools are in most boats.

ask me how I know 😉 

[DW]

@swbca - from the responses you give relative to solutions offered, another method used to secure bindings to a ski and still allow the foot separation you are looking for, Goode used 3M industrial velcro as a removable securing bond to attach a long plate to the ski.  You can dig up the details along with various threads on this site for pros / cons / maintenance etc. for that method.  Here is a video:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APvBJndHrNM 

This method provides a way to separate the plate from the ski, does not get your foot out of the boot but at least you'll show up to the Emergency room locked in a pair of boots and not with the ski in tow.  Personally, I like boots attached to the ski via screws with inserts in the ski, for me there is too much variability in a velcro attachment.

[aupatking]

I always suggest against the Goode powershells system. That’s what broke my leg in a fall that wouldn’t have had me sit out the rest of that set, had I been using a Reflex or MOB style release system. Some people ski them for years with no incident but I had two surgeries and 1 1/2 years off the water to come to that conclusion 

[KRoundy]

When I tried a release system a couple years ago I went with a front Reflex and a rear low-wrap Wiley. I actually really liked the setup, right up until I had a release happen as I was going through the gates and had the hardest fall I think I have ever experienced. Once I recovered I tried staying with the Reflex but every time I skied I found I was thinking about that release every time I crossed the wakes. That was never going to work. I sold the Reflex and still have the low-wrap rear in my garage waiting for a good use in some future setup.

[Horton]

@KRoundy was it on your opening pass?

[MDB1056]

@Horton- how is that relevant? 

[swbca]

@KRoundy I started this thread asking about going to a release system. Having seen a few videos of front boots releasing while guys were crossing the wake and now from your comment, I am reminded that I don't think I would ever trust a mechanical release.  Its not rational if they are set up correctly, but like you, I know I would be thinking about it every time I skied.  I think I stick with dual T-Factors for the few years of skiing I have left.  

In the 65 Nationals my front binding was ripped when I started this pass. It ripped in half when I hit the wake a moment later, leaving me with the RTP.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by swbca

[Zman]

When I was still using double rubber 'releasable' boots over 10 years ago, I tore my achilles on my front foot and had to remove all the overlay and heel cup screws to get my wobbly foot out. No way I could pull my foot out with the boot intact, even using soap. It took a little while, but fortunately I was not in too much pain.

[Zman]

@swbca Maybe I missed it, but have you considered getting the Radar Vapor boots? Or, even the the Radar Pulse boots?

I use a Sequence Carbon plate with the newer Vapor front boot, and an older Vapor Carbitex boot on the rear. I love this set up. The new Vapor boot is very supportive and comfortable. 

[aupatking]

T-Factors are good boots. Most likely overthinking it. It’s what winter does to us. I love the Reflex style systems because I know them. Whatever your gear, know it inside and out. That’s about the safest you can be

[ALPJr]

Nice pic @swbca!

[Deanoski]

I used a reflex for 12 plus years

then I day 3 rd pass -32. Prereleased

dam near killed me.  Air flight ect

I now ski a T factor.

 I will never pre release. Again

tje only other option I see is a radar boot mounted directly to the plate.

 

the reflex heel release is tech  from 

WW  2

Deano

 

[Horton]

@MDB1056

I have a non-scientific theory that many pre-releases happen on the first pass. If somebody pre-releases going through the gates on their opening pass, my first suspicion is that it is a Type 3 error. See list of errors below.

Pre-release has happened for one of three reasons

1 ) the release mechanism tension is simply too light ( this includes improper distance between hoop and release & and similar )

2 ) a mechanical part in the release is broken or loose

3 ) release mechanism not properly engaged ( simply not properly clicked in before ski ride )

[KRoundy]

14 hours ago, Horton said:

@KRoundy was it on your opening pass?

No. It was after my opener on my second pass. I SUSPECT that the release happened because of a combination of 1 and 3 on your list, with 3 being the most likely culprit. I checked everything post-crash and did your release test again. After doing so I upped the tension a little bit (maybe 1/2 a turn) but could not determine why it happened. I skied on it for another month, tentatively, and it never pre-released again. Went with some borrowed Vapors (old style) and then switched to new Vapors when they came out. I won a ski in 2022 and put T-Factors on it and I like them as well, but the Vapor is by far my favorite boot. I have not come out of them yet, but I also have not had an out-the-front or hard crash since that pre-release. 

[rawly]

I am considering a mechanical release as well. I’ve been on vapors for over 10 years with good success and at the end of this season I switched to the Vapor Carbitex. One of the differences between the boots is that the boa laces are about 3/4” further towards the cuff  than the previous versions. This puts the top lace going across where your foot  meets your leg. Not sure if this is the reason , but my foot only came half way out when I blew the tail out in the turn and I sprained an ankle. I run my bottom laces tight and the top has release room. I only want to come out on bad crashes which I get a few times a year when I hold on in bad situations. All I’m afraid of is the dreaded pre release. Waterskiing is different from other action sports in the sense that you have no say in a bad crash. It happens soooooo fast. 

[Dano]

It’s a fast sport with athletes experiencing extreme loads and high speeds. When things go wrong they can be very wrong.  Use whatever release makes you feel the safest. A release mechanism will not guarantee you will not have an injury. Personally I think the release mechanisms allow you to use a boot that would otherwise have no means of releasing your foot and offer a certain degree of confidence it will release in a given situation.  They can pre release unexpectedly and can be prone to mechanical failure or human error with setup.   I chose to not use a release and have been on radar carbitex for many years.  I’ve had plenty of hard crashes including OtF and have come out every single time.  At the same time I attribute that to the fact that I don’t cram my foot into a boot that is tight on me and I don’t over tighten the upper cuff. Could be luck in that I have a relatively long but skinny foot.  I wear size 11 runners and ski a size 12 radar boot.  I can can my foot in the 11 but it’s really tight. Maybe the sizing up has kept me safe in my crashes.  I use an HRT rear and  the real fear for me is that my rear foot comes out and the front does not.  It’s a risk that I accept. 
 

I do find it interesting that we are all concerned about the front foot releasing but nobody is really talking about what happens to the rear foot. Maybe I’m wrong here but I see guys with reflex front and rubber rear.  Are they not concerned that the front can release and the rear does not?  I always thought the goode system was great in that both feet rip off together on the same plate but I’ve never looked at it further since I didn’t like their boots or trust the Velcro (just personal preference) but the idea of releasing both together makes a lot of sense. 

[Horton]

@Dano makes a good point. Everyone needs to be responsible for their own binding choices. Personally, I have some strong opinions, but I do not want to be responsible for your potential injury. I have witnessed some gnarly prerelease falls but I have NEVER seen a prerelease that was not some sort of human error. I am also aware of some terrible injuries caused by no release.

 The systems are relatively simple but there is some nuance that seems unimportant until it is. The good news is that there is a very wide margin of error between dangerously too loose and too tight.

@Dano I think most skiers have their back foot looser than their front. I also think that in most falls a skier's back foot is more likely to get pulled safely off the ski. 

[KRoundy]

@Horton Curiosity question - Have you ever had a pre-release? Or a bad fall where you had the binding release? I recall you saying some time ago that you rarely fall anymore (not a brag, just stating a fact). I wonder if it (pre-release) has happened to pros, but they like the rigid setup so much they stick with it. I know this for sure: My binding setup is not holding back my skiing. Better weight distribution, staying up on the ski, staying attached to the handle past center line, etc… it is a long list. Equipment is not the problem. 🙂

[Horton]

@KRoundy

I fall all the time but it has been a few years since to took a real yardsale, ragdoll digger. 

I have not had a pre-release that I can recall since the days when I was trying to come out with my own binding system around 2000.

I did manage to do lifetime damage to my front ankle while using my an R&D version of my own system.

I am sure some elite skies have been hurt at some time by bindings that are too tight or too loose.

[mmosley899]

@swbca just wanted to follow up on some of these comments.

 I make all kinds of custom plates and setups. Spacing between boots is not a problem and can be adjusted in many ways.

 I can build release systems using many different types of boots, including T-factor boots.

 I have skied over 30 years using my MOB style release system and never had a pre release.

Unexpected releases are almost always a result of operator error or broken parts. I agree that you should know your equipment and inspect it before skiing.

 I build both single and double boot release systems. I have built systems using up to size 15 boots.