Is your ski set up close to stock?

[Horton]

I was messaging with a skier today who runs 15 or 22 off and said he had a after-market fin on his ski.  This got me thinking about # 7 on my "10 things to shorten the trip from Zero to 32 off". Short version is set your ski to stock.

I have a theory that binding and fin adjustment might happen on a bell curve. The lower your skill level you less you need it ( more you should not do it) and then at the other end of the curve the highest-end skiers either make the changes quickly and are less suspectable to imperfect setup. 

 

[Dano]

I can’t help but wonder how many skiers are skiing with their boots in the wrong spot, but have them set and measured to factory settings.  Radar boot on radar ski? You’re probably in the right spot.   Brand A boot on brand B ski.  You may or may not be close.  

Front boot location is so important and you don’t know what good feels like until you have experienced it.  TW had me make big moves with my boot to exaggerate the effects.  All the way forward and then all the way back, followed by stock measurement. It was very clear which way I wanted to continue to explore from there.  

[Stevie Boy]

I agree with Dano, I always run. D3 Tfactor on Radar skis  on stock measurement to the back of binding, maybe my front foot is fwd or aft of a Radar boot at stock settings, my arrangement works well for me but it would be nice to know if there was a difference.

[Horton]

Yeah you guys are not wrong about this. It is a real problem that every binding measure spec does not put your foot in the same place. 

My notes say Vapor runs 1/8 back so Always add 1/8th when using Vapor Boot.

[Dano]

@Horton interesting.  I use the iolder carbitex Vapor boot.  I’ve had it on HO A3, radar vapor, Denali c65, and currently D3 NRG R2.  On the vapor stock settings were really good.  On all other setups I found I was back 1/8” to 1/4” of what the factory was recommending.  I am wearing size 12 so maybe that makes a difference. 

[MitchellM]

I'm not sure what to tweak and why I would tweak it.  I'm just too much of a novice to make changes to fin settings.  I do question now if my boot is in the best location.  I'm not really sure how to measure this.  I did slap a radar vector boa boot on my Goode wide ride and just went about my business.  Could it be better located?  Probably the least of my problems.

[03RLXi]

Binding centre hole. Fin factory setting (approx anyway because I only check it once a year). I know I am the limiting factor. 

[101driver]

I consider adjusting set up especially on a new combination an essential part of skiing. I enjoy it especially the challenges it presents. I adjust friends ski's both better and worse skiers than me, because they trust me to do it in a methodical way and they know I can put the ski back to how it was if they want. 

My experience on the dock fit's with the bell curve which @Horton put's forward.

The negative is that I have seen many skiers at lower levels adjust for the wrong reasons. The commonest being moving bindings forward instead of working on developing a correct stacked stance. The result being a short term gain of a few buoys at the expense of bad form and the negative consequence of that for development.

Adjusting has given me greater insight into this sport, it has made me learn more which in turn means that my understanding of for example body position and technique is now more complete. This in turn has helped me develop a more informed strategy for my own development.

Jay Poscente explains the subject very well in his book Fin Whispering. A book I can easily loose myself in for many an hour and one I can highly recommend for what ever level of fin fiddler you aspire to be.

[Horton]

If progressing and highest ball count are the goal then these 2 things are both true.

• Your ski needs to be set up correctly. Often but not always close to stock.
• Treating ski set up as a hobby will hurt you more than help you

[101driver]

5 hours ago, Horton said:

If progressing and highest ball count are the goal then these 2 things are both true.

• Your ski needs to be set up correctly. Often but not always close to stock.
• Treating ski set up as a hobby will hurt you more than help you

I totally agree and well put, there is however another side Jay explains in his book a scenario where a skier was about to give up a hobby that they loved. A few adjustments made skiing possible and the skier was grateful for the joy that gave them. That level was good for them and they were happy to re-achieve that level.

It all depends what you want...................... Knowledge has always given power but with power comes great responsibility to use that knowledge responsibly. Most especially when dealing with others. I run stock but as already pointed out ...............what is stock on a mixed set up? 

I have also done what @Dano reported which is move bindings out of position to gain knowledge and I also did it for one week to break a habit. If you do it for the right reason and it works .............

 

[DW]

And always mark your settings so you can go back to what worked or a starting baseline.  Pencil scribe on fin & ski works well, along with keeping good records.

[101driver]

The aspect of this which I just can't fathom is why people don't measure and record what their settings are. If they wan't to run stock or what ever random setting the ski just happened to come with either set by shop or some configuration by previous owner. That's their choice but to not record it so they can put it back if it gets banged up or they have to replace the ski seems bizarre to me. At least measure it so you know, so if the worst happens you can get back to where you were.

The second aspect is condemning a ski but not bothering to check it's settings. I picked up an old model Vapor last year which the owner claimed was un-skiable and it was, the only reason the fin wasn't any further back was it would not go back any further, it was also completely down at back and right up at front. I put it to standard settings and it skied lovely, passed it to a crew member with out telling them anything verdict "what a nice ski"

 

[Horton]

@101driver I think you'll find a direct relation to a skier's average score and the two sins that you describe above. The average 15 off skier has no idea where their ski is set up and the average 38 off skier might be able to give you their settings without even looking them up.

[101driver]

@Horton I agree with your comment with the caveat "average"  I have also of course seen exceptions in both camps. I have thought about the "bell curve" comment you made at the start a lot since you posted, you are again IMPO correct for average or mean. The biggest problem I see and one I have had to address myself is that regardless of level, there is no point trying to tune a ski if you can't run consistent back to back passes. Faults we can debate but consistency is absolutely essential. High end skiers on the bell curve are of course more consistent and by definition have fewer fundamental faults. Your comment "are less suspectable to imperfect setup." is of course particularly relevant.

There is another aspect which I can't quite define, a 38 off skier has committed a lot to get there and normally has a greater knowledge OF ALL aspects relevant, to try and tune a ski in isolation of other aspects such as technique or in ignorance is probably not likely to yield good outcomes.

I do however believe that level should not be a barrier to tuning or adjusting. Measuring, setting to standard and checking is highly relevant at any level. With careful, consistent and a structured informed strategy any one at any level can gain from adjusting their ski. BUT on average I concede probably efforts and time may be better spent on coaching and technique and just run standard.!!! That is where I am anyway.

[evolski]

I actually use "Fin Tweaking" in work to describe spending unending hours trying something that you are sure will make a difference to no benefit.  We run an online marketing company and no one skies but everyone knows what "Fin Tweaking" is.  

Sorry for the distraction from serious and beneficial conversation

 

[skialex]

9 hours ago, Horton said:

@101driver I think you'll find a direct relation to a skier's average score and the two sins that you describe above. The average 15 off skier has no idea where their ski is set up and the average 38 off skier might be able to give you their settings without even looking them up.

@Horton Nailed it….

[Bdecker]

I feel like there should be a 6th option - “I often chase my tail briefly with tweaks but typically make it back to stock” 

[Stathis Ventouris]

@Horton on the Vapor boot I followed so far the 1/8th rule but we found last weekend with @skialex that the difference compared to the Reflex is 1/4th.  I adjusted my front binding and my ski worked much better.

[101driver]

Devils advocate ..................for fun or the greater good?

@Horton your appraisal for your stated goal "shorten zero to 32" no argument. 100% agree.

I feel that we have a responsibility to promote what we believe will help others the most. My concern is that a clear message seems to be in our world that only 32 off or better skier can adjust their set up. Anyone else doing so is a fool who risks consequences of biblical magnitude or at least condemnation from their ski peers.

The more I think about your bell curve and I do agree with your hypothesis of it. The more I think that we should be promoting a change to an upside down bell curve.

I think:

• Most skiers in the world are sub 34 15off, probably most course skiers are sub 34 15 off
• Of that majority most are not set up correctly
• Most don't know this and if they did they don't know what to do
• Most don't ever RISK trying for above fears
• A sub 34 15off skier trying to work on technique with a bad set up is really stacking the odds against them
• They are probably on old second hand gear with a Frankenstein set up with no published "stock" figures. They can't justify new gear at $2000 because they aren't that good and they only ski summer weekends with mates or family.

What we should do

• Try to encourage at least measuring and setting to standard if there is one
• If it is a Frankenstein set up, then trying moving bindings is a worth while exercise, even if it makes the set up worse there is a knowledge gain for this level of skier, which is beneficial.
• We try to encourage best practice........... you guy's know more but record data, systematic approach, video your sking so you don't just think it's better because you changed it!!!!! all that good stuff.

A small gain for a skier in this group can be a game changer, if the set up goes from bad to good and buoy count increases motivation will often follow, whether that is more skiing, starting gym work or just reading this forum for inspiration it's all positive to drive further improvement. Coaching holiday trip may follow and guess what a better ski might be justified. They are now on your "zero to 32 trajectory! 

We should encourage this and to do so we need to turn @Horton bell curve upside down

 

 

[Drago]

@101driver I think @Horton is saying those skiers should run stock #'s and adjusting from stock is not going to show much roi. Not that they should buy a used ski and leave the jacked setup.

[101driver]

@Drago I totally agree with @Horton points and as you point out "run stock" I just see a lot of people in the sub 34 15 off group who have no idea what they are running. Of the ski's in this group which I have measured all have been off stock, most way off, 3 I could tell from just looking at them lying on the dock. I see getting this group to:

• Measure and record at least once
• Try setting to stock if it's not
• If it is a mixed binding and older ski with no stock figures then adjust bindings for and aft a bit

is something we should do

[Horton]

2 hours ago, 101driver said:

• Measure and record at least once
• Try setting to stock if it's not
• If it is a mixed binding and older ski with no stock figures then adjust bindings for and aft a bit

Your first 2 points should be one. Measure and if not stock then reset to stock unless you are skiing with someone who really knows better or you are running 32 off. 

This "mixed binding" thing seems to have just recently entered the water ski zeitgeist. Using the "stock" numbers for a ski with a binding of a different brand will easily have you within a 1/4". Unless you cut slots in your binding plate, most bindings only adjust down to 3/8". 1/4" will for sure make a difference at shorter rope lengths and can be a big deal but for a lower-level skier it is getting close to being in the weeks.  

Most often you will only find these the mixed brand discrepancies with hard shells.  

 

If your ski is so old that no one knows the settings then chances are that the ski itself is a bigger issue than the settings. A few years ago I found settings for a EP Stiletto good enough to run within 6 balls of personal PB. That ski is 30 years old +/-. This is a crazy example but if a ski came with a modern adjustable fin stock settings or known settings can be found.  

[Horton]

Learning ski setup is a rabbit hole inside a vicious circle wrapped in a Dunning Kruger graph.

If your skiing level and experience are not high enough, then you cannot evaluate the changes you have made and it is extremely unlikely that your diagnostic abilities are adequate to adjust your ski

By the time you are skiing at a high level, it is increasingly important that your ski is set up correctly

If you do not learn to set up your ski you are limiting your potential

Spending time and boat gas learning to set up your ski equals ski rides spent not working on your skiing

If ultimate high score is your goal, letting a pro set up your ski might be money well spent. 

---

Except for a few pro skiers, I believe that I have run mid 38 or better on more different skis than anyone else in the sport. I have cooked numbers from scratch on a lot of skis and I have also cooked a lot of numbers with the help of wise guys like @AdamCord. As the years go on, I tweak on setup less and ski closer to stock. My bindings move 1/10^th of an inch at a time and rarely more than 2/10ths from stock. I mess with depth more than length and cringe when I have to change DFT. The last few times I have struggled with the setup moving closer to stock has almost always fixed the issue.

It is important to remember that stock settings are developed by a team of factory skiers who spend months working on them before the ski is even announced to the public.

 

I am not saying that you should not mess with your settings. I am saying that you must be self-aware of your limitations. Of course, this all becomes moot if ultimate high score is not the goal. 

[101driver]

@Horton your final paragraph sums up our difference of perspective. Within your stated goal of zero to 32 I totally agree with everything you have said especially dunning Kruger.

Most sub 34 15off skiers have no desire to be into short line. If older there objectives is to ski as long as possible and enjoy it. That is why they are there not at 32.

The reason measure is separate from put to std settings is. I always measure and record first. It is then up to the skier if they want me to adjust to std settings. I tell them it's not std but sometimes they don't want to change it. And sometimes when I have changed to std they ask me to put it back to how it was.

It's their  ski, their life, their time and fun

T

[Horton]

49 minutes ago, 101driver said:

Most sub 34 15off skiers have no desire to be into short line. If older there objectives is to ski as long as possible and enjoy it. That is why they are there not at 32.

We may be skiing on different planets. I am not sure I know anyone who puts in much effort and does not want to ski at a higher level. My motto for years has been something like -  "We are all struggling but at different levels." I seriously doubt that many readers of this site are content with their current level of skiing. EVERYTHING I think about in regards to skiing is oriented around a higher ball count. I am not saying I am good at living my life in this manner but I should.

Sure it is good to know your settings in case something bad happens to your ski but if you are not going to do anything with it then it is a 5 minute exercise that will likely prove worthless. 

[101driver]

@Hortonmy personal approach is very much the same as yours. Buoy count drives me...........gym, driving for 2 hours to visit coach, diet the list goes on. Skiing is always in my mind. But I have come to accept that not everyone approaches this sport like us. I ski with a guy who is 74 he just wants one more year, his ski is set up completely out of whack, it used to irritate me, one day he tried my ski, which is set close to std, he could not ski on it. He has spent years skiing on a bad set up. Who am I to criticise he likes it that way. The reason for the post is if he had corrected back to std a few years back and taken the pain with his technique he would have been 1) on a higher buoy count 2) therefore possibly able to ski more years as more efficient 3) possibly not had that awfully accident last year which still may end his skiing.

The irony is setting up a ski out of whack is the only way this guy can keep doing what he loves. Tunning it ain't but std it ain't either

[Horton]

@101driver I am going to wrap this up by saying I think your 74-year-old ski partner is not a typical skier. I am happy he is skiing and his skiing is as valid as anyone's. On the other hand, this forum is intended for skiers who ON AVERAGE  are looking to run more balls.

[The_MS]

Stock what? 
short/deep, long/shallow, 34 vs 36

KD even has Pro team settings 

[Horton]

@The_MS Yes.