Dano

Free ski until we get the course floating in a couple weeks. Once the course in I'll run -15 for a few sets, if feeling good I'll shorten to -28 pretty quickly, that is where i'll stay for a while. I can run -28 pretty routinely, -32 is harder and still pretty scrappy, -35 has not yet fallen for me.

@stevezie You summed Centurion up pretty good. Great wakes, rough ride. If you have calm water these boats skied really well. The Falcon hull was a great skiing boat with very little spray. Wood stringers was one of the negative to them as well. I think the Tru Tracs and Lapoints were very similar and I'd expect them to ski very well too. I believe the Eclipse was a continuation of the Falcon hull but was composite construction and open bow.

I have a Falcon. I think its wakes are really good. Low and soft. Tracking isn’t that bad and there’s next to no spray. Its beam is a bit wider than most of that era, so it’s not as prone to weight distribution. The boat is like an Indy car on water as long as the water is flat. It really is a rough ride in choppy water is the only complaint I have. I’m not sure but I think the falcons and the Tige’s share the same Hull produced by Fineline as @RAWSki already mentioned. I don’t know what the differences would be outside of the branding.

if you are checking motor mounts just make sure the bolts are holding without turning them. Tightening can pull threads out, and loosening can also weaken them. They are just lag bolts into wood.

Float it and watch for water leaks. The bilge should not take on much water during use. A drip or 2 every 10 seconds from the log packing is all you should expect. It should not have 2 or 3 gallons sloshing around. check fuel hose is in good condition and there are no fuel leaks. Insure the bilge blower fan is operating and properly vented out the back of the boat. Make sure your carburetor is equipped with a throttle return spring. So it will return to idle if your throttle cable breaks. Speaking of cables a boat that old may need new brass fittings on the ends of the throttle and shift cables. Mine were just about worn thru when I replaced them last year. make sure your bilge pump is operational. Steering cable. If you don’t know how old it is. It is a good idea to replace it. Even if it appears to be operating smoothly. You don’t want to experience a broken steering cable at any speed. You will also want to check the steering cable clamp block is in good shape and there is no slop in it. I have a centurion of that era and the rear drain plugs are the crappiest design. Suggest you at least have a look at what is there and make sure they are securely attached still. On my boat they are just garboard plugs with tiny wood screws that were screwed thru the fiberglass into the wood transom. Never sealed properly. Wet wood Resulted in loose screws. the speedo pickup hoses are another point of water intake where they go thru the transom. Get perfect pass, Toss the Speedo’s in the garbage and plug the holes with epoxy. grab your prop and see how much play is in the cutlass bearing. It shouldn’t have a lot of movement but it will have a little play. While you are ther give the rudder a shake. Again a little movement is fine but if it feels loose and moves around it may need to be serviced . start it up, and watch the temperature operates as expected probably around 160degrees. If it climbs higher it’s time to shut it down and figure out why. By the way the danger here is damage to the engine but also the exhaust hoses could get extremely hot if the raw water is not flowing properly. That heat can cause the exhaust hoses to fail. I’ve seen the rubber seperate on the inside and become an obstruction. Worst case is they fail completely and you are now sinking. Always keep an eye on your temps. enjoy your boat!

From the thread titled "why can pp not be like ZO" seems the patent expires in 2027 noted by MattP. I see the date listed on that page as being 2025-05-08. but I can't see how to read more about it? I'm not sure if that changes anything but it seems like it could open the door.

PP DBW systems are very good. I think ZO loses their ability to keep PP on the outside in the next couple of years. Will be interesting to see if PP competes for the business.

@jpwhit I understand this aspect of it. Econtrols has our sport held hostage until another speed control exists.

@Horton I think what you are talking about is the fact that a lot of EFI configurations were throttle body prior to 2008 and were cable throttle's still. in which case Econtrols is not equipped to control those engines. DBW became popular around that time and ZO was born. This conversation is about producing a new boat with a new motor. All I was suggesting is that econtrols could be used to control any modern engine. We are not limited to ilmore, or PCM. Marineizing is not that difficult.

You are correct. But if you are talking EFI. basically you have a fuel delivery and ignition system that is controlled by a computer. E controls is that computer. ZO is proprietary to econtrols which is why they play nice together. I'm not an expert but it seems to me that Econtrols is similar to a custom tune or computer for a car and could be adapted to just about any efi engine if they wanted to do so. Tuners have been building computers to custome tune efi systems for years. Essentially Econtrols is just that, a customized engine control system. If you can control your engine with Econtrols you can have ZO. If you control your engine with anything but Econtrols ZO is no longer an option.

@Mastercrafter To the best of my knowledge ZO is a product of enovation controls. Enovation controls makes engine management systems. Seems to me that enovation controls could make an engine management system to suit virtually any engine. I don't see this as being a hurdle. I may have misunderstood what you meant by Cat engine. I think you meant catalytic converter not the Cat brand? Either way it's not he hurdle.

@RAWSki a new prostar weighs in excess of 3300lbs. My centurion falcon weighs 2500lbs and my boat is full of wood. Lighter than the prostar can definitely be done. I see no reason to be married to a Cat engine. There are endless options to choose from.

@RAWSki i do agree that the cost of new boats is not what’s limiting new skiers. I don’t think those are good examples of “done before”. None of those offerings were significantly cheaper in price than the flagship models and they did not perform as well as the flagship models. What is being proposed is a 60k boat that can perform as well or better than the flagship models. I think both price point and performance are possible since the boats would be stripped down and weigh less. At 60k that is half the cost of what is currently available. That price point and performance would certainly win a good percentage of buyers of both new and used.

@Jody_Seal I suspect yes a 60k boat could be built. My opinion is that a 60k budget boat that performs on par with the current offerings is only good for the sport and the boat market. It would certainly change the landscape of both the new and used boat sales. It could really shake things up. I don’t think that price point is really enticing new buyers into the market. There are only so many skiers and even fewer skiers willing to pay that kind of money to play. The budget boat would need to win some sales away from the big 3 and attract some buyers out of the used market. I would like to see it happen. I’m not sure there’s anybody willing to invest the time and money required to get such a boat into production, and tournament approved. Further to that, This sport has some very loyal brand supporters. I’m not sure you’d ever convince them that a 1/2 price boat is a good boat. Especially if it doesn’t say MC or Nautique on it.

iOS 17.2.1. Fin DB v3 and it works as it should.

still works on my iphone.

Whatever box you use make sure to protect the ski tip and tail with lots of rags or foam or something to cushion them from impact, and from sliding around inside the box. Shipping companies are not nice to these boxes.

I was only pointing out that ZO being the only option for speed control, has dictated the use of e controls. Regardless of which engine is being used.

@jjackkrash my understanding is that econtols is simply an engine control system. In my experience playing with automotive aftermarket is that there is a multitude of options to control just about any power plant. Leads me to believe you could pick anything but econtrols to manage your engine and then the patent would not apply. It’s the marriage between the engine builder, boat manufacturers, and econtrols that makes ZO the only option.

What happens if ZO isn’t the only speed control approved for tournaments? i realize that may not be a popular idea among competitors. But we ski in what is now a very controlled environment, more so than some other sports. Is ZO really better than PP? (their DBW version, not the old paddle wheel or servo motor), is e controls really the best engine control system? Is PCM really the best engine option? We don’t really know because the industry only offers us the one option currently. Are prices artificially elevated because of this? I fully beleive competition is good for innovation. I see more similarities in boat brands than I see differences. In my opinion the dispute between PP and ZO hampered competition and was overall bad for the sport. To me it is short sighted to say all tournaments will be held using ZO. It’s good for record setting, i get that, but other sports have variables for competitors to contend with that can favour some more than others. Preparing to compete regardless of the conditions is a part of being a competitor.

Agree if the skier is dropping their hips back they will be much better served to simply stand tall. I had an interesting tip that really helped me last year. It's a little off the wall. The tip I got was to "push the handle down your thigh as low as you can as you come into the wakes". didn't make sense to me, but the more i tried it the more it was working for me.

on dry land secure a handle to something. Put that handle at your hip and stand as if headed cross course in your lean. Now try to roll your feet from flats onto edge. If your chest is proud, legs straight, and body rigid. You will likely have no choice but to get your whole body more horizontal, pushing your feet towards the pylon and shoulders further down and away. It can effectively roll the ski on edge if everything is very rigid and moving like a stiff plank. Now same situation, But instead of being rigid and driving your shoulders away just lower your hip slightly without letting the handle move from your hip. At this point you likely bent your front knee just a little, which moved your mass forward, your upper body should have remained relatively still, and your are now standing on the edges of your ski with freedom to take a little more lean are ease up slightly as needed. I think Dane is pretty good at this. To be clear this is not a "to knee bend or not to kneed bend" conversation. If you watch Dane he does not ski with a lot of knee bend into and thru CL.

@Horton interesting. I use the iolder carbitex Vapor boot. I’ve had it on HO A3, radar vapor, Denali c65, and currently D3 NRG R2. On the vapor stock settings were really good. On all other setups I found I was back 1/8” to 1/4” of what the factory was recommending. I am wearing size 12 so maybe that makes a difference.

I can’t help but wonder how many skiers are skiing with their boots in the wrong spot, but have them set and measured to factory settings. Radar boot on radar ski? You’re probably in the right spot. Brand A boot on brand B ski. You may or may not be close. Front boot location is so important and you don’t know what good feels like until you have experienced it. TW had me make big moves with my boot to exaggerate the effects. All the way forward and then all the way back, followed by stock measurement. It was very clear which way I wanted to continue to explore from there.

Pretty telling how fragile the market is by the reaction to pure speculation. A lot of valid points being raised about the cost, availability, and viability of the tournament boat offerings. Which in turn has sparked the conversation of what’s wrong with the sport and why participation is down. Right here in this thread is some good insights to what is missing from the sport. The sport needs to get back to the grass roots of it all. Just the basics of a bunch of people having fun on the lake. Buoys are not for everybody, perfect water isn’t accessible to everybody. But skiing can exist outside of those 2 things, and guess what it’s still fun. The more people that experience it and understand it even at most basic level, can also then appreciate the skill it takes to complete the course. Maybe they might enjoy watching a tournament again. Just like a hockey fan who can’t skate enjoys watching a game. I’m not sure a cheaper boat is a viable option in the market space. However, There clearly is a crowd that wants cheaper boats so maybe there is a chance it could work. (Please don’t point to the CP and say it’s been done. It was still a lot of money, and if you’re spending that much, why not spend another 10k for the tried and true. I love the CP but it wasn’t a bargain boat). I don’t think it’s on the current producers to offer a cheaper boat. There is a healthy used market for the budget minded. I can’t afford a new truck but I’ve never heard somebody say they need to produce a bare bones bargain truck. Guys like me just buy used.