Dano

@jpwhit I understand this aspect of it. Econtrols has our sport held hostage until another speed control exists.

@Horton I think what you are talking about is the fact that a lot of EFI configurations were throttle body prior to 2008 and were cable throttle's still. in which case Econtrols is not equipped to control those engines. DBW became popular around that time and ZO was born. This conversation is about producing a new boat with a new motor. All I was suggesting is that econtrols could be used to control any modern engine. We are not limited to ilmore, or PCM. Marineizing is not that difficult.

You are correct. But if you are talking EFI. basically you have a fuel delivery and ignition system that is controlled by a computer. E controls is that computer. ZO is proprietary to econtrols which is why they play nice together. I'm not an expert but it seems to me that Econtrols is similar to a custom tune or computer for a car and could be adapted to just about any efi engine if they wanted to do so. Tuners have been building computers to custome tune efi systems for years. Essentially Econtrols is just that, a customized engine control system. If you can control your engine with Econtrols you can have ZO. If you control your engine with anything but Econtrols ZO is no longer an option.

@Mastercrafter To the best of my knowledge ZO is a product of enovation controls. Enovation controls makes engine management systems. Seems to me that enovation controls could make an engine management system to suit virtually any engine. I don't see this as being a hurdle. I may have misunderstood what you meant by Cat engine. I think you meant catalytic converter not the Cat brand? Either way it's not he hurdle.

@RAWSki a new prostar weighs in excess of 3300lbs. My centurion falcon weighs 2500lbs and my boat is full of wood. Lighter than the prostar can definitely be done. I see no reason to be married to a Cat engine. There are endless options to choose from.

@RAWSki i do agree that the cost of new boats is not what’s limiting new skiers. I don’t think those are good examples of “done before”. None of those offerings were significantly cheaper in price than the flagship models and they did not perform as well as the flagship models. What is being proposed is a 60k boat that can perform as well or better than the flagship models. I think both price point and performance are possible since the boats would be stripped down and weigh less. At 60k that is half the cost of what is currently available. That price point and performance would certainly win a good percentage of buyers of both new and used.

@Jody_Seal I suspect yes a 60k boat could be built. My opinion is that a 60k budget boat that performs on par with the current offerings is only good for the sport and the boat market. It would certainly change the landscape of both the new and used boat sales. It could really shake things up. I don’t think that price point is really enticing new buyers into the market. There are only so many skiers and even fewer skiers willing to pay that kind of money to play. The budget boat would need to win some sales away from the big 3 and attract some buyers out of the used market. I would like to see it happen. I’m not sure there’s anybody willing to invest the time and money required to get such a boat into production, and tournament approved. Further to that, This sport has some very loyal brand supporters. I’m not sure you’d ever convince them that a 1/2 price boat is a good boat. Especially if it doesn’t say MC or Nautique on it.

iOS 17.2.1. Fin DB v3 and it works as it should.

still works on my iphone.

Whatever box you use make sure to protect the ski tip and tail with lots of rags or foam or something to cushion them from impact, and from sliding around inside the box. Shipping companies are not nice to these boxes.

I was only pointing out that ZO being the only option for speed control, has dictated the use of e controls. Regardless of which engine is being used.

@jjackkrash my understanding is that econtols is simply an engine control system. In my experience playing with automotive aftermarket is that there is a multitude of options to control just about any power plant. Leads me to believe you could pick anything but econtrols to manage your engine and then the patent would not apply. It’s the marriage between the engine builder, boat manufacturers, and econtrols that makes ZO the only option.

What happens if ZO isn’t the only speed control approved for tournaments? i realize that may not be a popular idea among competitors. But we ski in what is now a very controlled environment, more so than some other sports. Is ZO really better than PP? (their DBW version, not the old paddle wheel or servo motor), is e controls really the best engine control system? Is PCM really the best engine option? We don’t really know because the industry only offers us the one option currently. Are prices artificially elevated because of this? I fully beleive competition is good for innovation. I see more similarities in boat brands than I see differences. In my opinion the dispute between PP and ZO hampered competition and was overall bad for the sport. To me it is short sighted to say all tournaments will be held using ZO. It’s good for record setting, i get that, but other sports have variables for competitors to contend with that can favour some more than others. Preparing to compete regardless of the conditions is a part of being a competitor.

Agree if the skier is dropping their hips back they will be much better served to simply stand tall. I had an interesting tip that really helped me last year. It's a little off the wall. The tip I got was to "push the handle down your thigh as low as you can as you come into the wakes". didn't make sense to me, but the more i tried it the more it was working for me.

on dry land secure a handle to something. Put that handle at your hip and stand as if headed cross course in your lean. Now try to roll your feet from flats onto edge. If your chest is proud, legs straight, and body rigid. You will likely have no choice but to get your whole body more horizontal, pushing your feet towards the pylon and shoulders further down and away. It can effectively roll the ski on edge if everything is very rigid and moving like a stiff plank. Now same situation, But instead of being rigid and driving your shoulders away just lower your hip slightly without letting the handle move from your hip. At this point you likely bent your front knee just a little, which moved your mass forward, your upper body should have remained relatively still, and your are now standing on the edges of your ski with freedom to take a little more lean are ease up slightly as needed. I think Dane is pretty good at this. To be clear this is not a "to knee bend or not to kneed bend" conversation. If you watch Dane he does not ski with a lot of knee bend into and thru CL.

@Horton interesting. I use the iolder carbitex Vapor boot. I’ve had it on HO A3, radar vapor, Denali c65, and currently D3 NRG R2. On the vapor stock settings were really good. On all other setups I found I was back 1/8” to 1/4” of what the factory was recommending. I am wearing size 12 so maybe that makes a difference.

I can’t help but wonder how many skiers are skiing with their boots in the wrong spot, but have them set and measured to factory settings. Radar boot on radar ski? You’re probably in the right spot. Brand A boot on brand B ski. You may or may not be close. Front boot location is so important and you don’t know what good feels like until you have experienced it. TW had me make big moves with my boot to exaggerate the effects. All the way forward and then all the way back, followed by stock measurement. It was very clear which way I wanted to continue to explore from there.

Pretty telling how fragile the market is by the reaction to pure speculation. A lot of valid points being raised about the cost, availability, and viability of the tournament boat offerings. Which in turn has sparked the conversation of what’s wrong with the sport and why participation is down. Right here in this thread is some good insights to what is missing from the sport. The sport needs to get back to the grass roots of it all. Just the basics of a bunch of people having fun on the lake. Buoys are not for everybody, perfect water isn’t accessible to everybody. But skiing can exist outside of those 2 things, and guess what it’s still fun. The more people that experience it and understand it even at most basic level, can also then appreciate the skill it takes to complete the course. Maybe they might enjoy watching a tournament again. Just like a hockey fan who can’t skate enjoys watching a game. I’m not sure a cheaper boat is a viable option in the market space. However, There clearly is a crowd that wants cheaper boats so maybe there is a chance it could work. (Please don’t point to the CP and say it’s been done. It was still a lot of money, and if you’re spending that much, why not spend another 10k for the tried and true. I love the CP but it wasn’t a bargain boat). I don’t think it’s on the current producers to offer a cheaper boat. There is a healthy used market for the budget minded. I can’t afford a new truck but I’ve never heard somebody say they need to produce a bare bones bargain truck. Guys like me just buy used.

The tournament scene is one that I myself really enjoy. The competition, the friendship, the opportunity to ski at different sites, the whole experience has been really fun. Having said that, I think tournament skiers are a very small percentage of of skiers. there is more to the sport than just tournaments and it's around those non tournament skiers that you need to create the buzz and excitement. Not everybody plays pro baseball but there is a lot of baseball fans out there that watch baseball or play baseball without being on an organized team. What I'm saying is that if you want to invigorate the sport you have to appeal to the masses. In our sports case, we no longer have masses of skiers to market to, so we now have to search people out as if it's a new sport and introduce people to it again. Market the sport at the entry level, have youth camps at local lakes, advertisements showing people having a blast throwing big spray while there friends cheer them on. More videos and coverage of the college tournaments, from what i've seen they know how to have fun at a lake. I remember seeing the juicy fruit commercials with skiers, throwing big spray, the party on the shore. Everybody in those commercials was seemingly having the time of their lives. It looked like fun, and I wanted to be a part of it. I even bought an Connelly F44 craze when I was like 14 years old because I thought it had some cool graphics and the catalogue said "lean on the tale and throw a big spray" . Just take my money once i read that.

If Malibu steps out of the tournament boat scene. It's because the sport as a whole has failed. It was once a thriving sport with a reasonable following in the 90's. I can even remember a tournament being held on our local public lake once when I was a kid and there were even spectators on the shores, conditions were aweful but it still happened. People were interested. Since then it's completely died. the market for rec skiers is null, the course skier crowd needs good water for which there is limited access. organizing bodies are focused on tournament skiing only. Boats and gear being expensive is not what is holding the sport back. People spend way more to surf. What the sport needs is the the organizing bodies to put some effort into growing the sport at the younger ages, getting some ambassadors out there, promoting the sport and generating an interest in it again . Skiing is growing in popularity again. In my area there is a lot more skiers today than even 3 years ago. A lot of those skiers are rec skiers enjoying free skiing. It's now always about running buoys. The opportunity for the sport to thrive is there. The 90's was a boom, the ad's were there, the exposure to the public was there, and skiers were there. It's not like we have to reinvent the wheel. Bring back the enthusiasm and you will bring back boat sales. The price to me is not the issue.

@swbca I think that position is for very advanced skiers. The bent knees in that picture i think is a result of managing very high loads and being very far forward on the ski. Look at how far forward his front knee is over his toes. I don't think it is possible to be that far forward without having some knee bend. I think the majority of skiers are trying to remain as tall as possible even if their position on the ski requires some knee bend.

@Jody_Seal what I'm hearing you say is that the boat community is prime to adopt the hotrod community for aftermarket options. Perfect pass essentially has provided the ability for anybody to add speed control to any engine. Having skied several DBW PP equipped boats, i think they offer a very good pull. The problem I see is being married to zero off as being the only option. Which limits the re power options. Zero off only in a tournament environment does create continuity but it also creates a monopoly and creates a non competitive environment for engine suppliers. Who currently can do and charge as they please. I don't honestly think the tournament community would be open to this. Knowing your boat will have ZO at every tournament is obviously good for competitors. I do think ZO only is bad for the industry, limits new tech from entering the space, and drives up costs. What if speed control requirements for tournaments listed specific performance requirements and any speed control meeting those requirements would be acceptable? Suddenly you could have ZO, PP, and perhaps some new tech coming to the market place. I believe any boat meeting speed and time requirements can offer a pull competitive to what zero off offers. Maybe they will be a little different pull but so is zero off from Nautique, to MC, to Malibu. If the market would accept this you could see a speed control that can be adapted to any re power option and be tuned to suit. PP currently likely can/could fill this space, but I think there could be an option that is a more user tunable speed control similar to what the hot rod community has for tuning EFI. Plug it into your lap top and adjust.

I use a Quicksilver 4/3. Their suits are flexible, and comfortable. I've not been cold in mine being used in low 50's water. This suit does get wet compared to some other suits but it is somehow able to keep me warmer than my old 5/4xcel suit, which was a suit that kept me relatively dry.

@Jody_Seal If only nuclear fusion was so simple.

I’m not much up to speed on all the options to replace fossil fuels, but I think moving away from oil and gas is good but I’ve yet to see a viable path forward with the current options. Switching to electric is all the talk but I can’t see how it’s possible without a massive increase to the power grids. I live in Canada and we recently had -30c or colder temps across BC and Alberta. This alone caused some areas electric grids to be at there max. Not ideal to plug in millions of cars in the next few years. While I do support the development of electric vehicles I think our government and industry is too focused on just electric power. I don’t hear about any other options. Like others have pointed out already, Electric energy isn’t clean either. It’s just dirty in different ways., especially once you start using batteries. What ever happened to developing hydrogen ice vehicles? Or what else is out there?