JohnN

The real issue in the kids' divisions is the speed changes. My assumption from your suggestion is that the speed for girls goes 32 at 3 and 34 at 4. Do you propose an intermediate step for the boys to go B1/30, B2/32, B3/34, B4/36? That may be helpful. When do then get to start jumping, 2 or 3? IMO, the changing divisions for safety makes sense (i.e. people feel that 9 is too young for 34 or 13 for 36 in the case of an late year birthday) and it could make for more fun on the boys side where they can start shortening at 32 rather than spending maybe their entire B2 "career" learning 34 before they shorten. If we were to make a change I suggest AWSA bite the bullet and get consistent with other youth sports and go U9, U13, U15, U18. Current records would stand (Bx/Gx), new records would be set.

I saw a couple of Brenda's light lines last weekend - bright yellow mainline with small take off loops of the correct colors woven in. Light, simple and easy to identify, and shouldn't add that much weight to have loops down to -38 or -39. Pretty cool stuff. If this was pushed through AWSA, they would probably need to decide if it was going to be a mandatory tournament supplied equipment so that competitors could get the same rope advantage/disadvantage regardless of location.

Just saying it happened and light lines can take many different forms and diameters since there is no standard. Start speed/finish speed, etc. would add another element to the competition. As a worker, I'm more concerned about keeping it simple, having the rope not be used when it's not intended, and identifying it easily when it is in use. FWIW, this hadn't been an issue previously as all the light lines were essentially bright yellow or bright red jump lines, and we've been running light lines for 5 yrs or more. Back on topic, light lines and wide slaloms increased the number of smaller kids having fun at our tournaments, and if that helps the smaller or newer B2 skiers to enjoy the sport, that's great!

Little HO (x-factor?) gloves. We've had great luck getting them at Tommy's (www.gettommys.com) John

I'm all for light lines with smaller kids through B2/G2, we just need a standard for a light line so that they can all be quickly and easily identified when going from lake to lake. We ran into the situation this weekend where we had to re-run a division when a light line (white with shortening loops) was used and didn't come off the dock. It mixed in with the tourney lines for G3 and the dock starter just used what was on the dock as they switched classes. Felt weird and spongy enough to bring a number of comments and protests from different competitors who got that rope. I like Than's suggestion, but (and we did run into this in tourneys), when a kid has a breakout day and runs max speed you then have to switch ropes in the middle of the set with a long line only scenario. Instead, I suggest the handle to first loop section needs to be bright yellow or something so it's immediately obvious to everyone when a light line is in play and the skier can still start at 15off if they want. John

jimbrake - The kids and I train out of Loveland (www.lovelandracing.com, www.swissam.com), and season typically starts mid-Oct and last year we ran til mid-June. The guns are in place and just waiting for overnights to get below 30. November is way cool up there, lots of National teams training and the NORAMS at the end of Nov. That being said, I waterskied last night, no wetsuit or anything, and it was comfy. Pretty crazy for October in Colorado, and may be a little longer fall.

Now til mid-October, ski as long as the weather holds, then winterize the camper, the boat, and pull the course. Right now the water is warming up with 85deg days. That's the dream, reality is haul kids to football 4 days a week, start prepping skis for mid-Oct start of training for ski racing. Workout regimen for the winter consists of packing and unpacking the truck, filing, waxing and brushing inordinate amounts of skis. Should've got the kids into swim team...

Agreed, recreational snow skiing is more like cruising around on a weekend on a public lake. Ed, love the thoughts and analysis. Take a look at http://www.lovelandracing.com and watch the Coaches Choice video of Ligety. During the slow motion part you can really get a feel for the leg extension, angulation and COM movement.  And, here's what Ligety does to prepare for a run like that . John

I think you can measure it accurately being careful and using the depth indicator of the caliper. I've had skis with a difference that went from couldn't dial it in to great by getting this consistent on both sides. My Z7 measured pretty much perfect from the factory, however. To level I just add strips of tape under one side of the fin block. If you're really crazy you could add some hook to your turns by tilting the fin to benefit your style :-). John

My feeling is that there's more similiarity than not, particularly from the waist down. Biggest difference to me is that on snow your core is used to move the upper body forward to stay in alignment, and on water the core is used to keep the upper body back to stay in alignment. But...  The kids have a ski coach now who's super-emphasizing a long transition period between turns, and the turns happen quickly from rise-line to fall-line (think the line straight down the buoy line). It's an interesting concept, one that is pretty apparent in many of the top Euro racers (and US like Ligety). The sound is the best indicator - you can hear them engage in the turn, and then the skis are almost silent across to the start of the next turn. Hard to do for someone like me who likes to hold onto that nice carving feeling too long. Now it's got me wondering if there's a way to apply this to water skiing and if it makes sense. Sort of a quick, high speed turn with an early edge release and a long, light load across the wakes. I have no idea whether it's even something worth exploring, but I'm getting the itch just thinking about it. John

Sorry Marco, been prepping the new race skis for the season. Yeah, kids are a ball. We do the local Jr Dev. camp and from what I've seen probably the most important thing is to give the kids a sense of togetherness. Then, they want to go to tourneys to see their friends. Celebrate every victory, from dropping a ski to learning a new pass at shortline.  We try to make sure the kids have time to be kids - two ropes and skiers, wakeboards, whatever, in addition to training. Get the kids hungry for spring and that first ski ride! On the technical side, getting the body position right is key! At this age working on body position over and over will take them a long ways. The best kids I know have very good body position, even at a young age. Dryland slalom with cones on the street is good for understanding how to stay ahead of the course, but pick your location carefully. Those Wave things (one wheel front and one back) work well for this, and inline skates are ok as well. You can pull with a bike, but realize that there will be crashing involved! For tricks, our friend Ken from Aspen made the coolest trick trainer I've seen. Basically cut a trick-shaped piece of wood and mounted it to a bar stool swivel on a block. Fantastic for practicing tricks. I like the pulley with a weight idea, may incorporate that this winter. If you're the cerebral type, read The Talent Code. The masters videos have been hit with my kids, especially the junior Masters, and there's a ton of youtube videos out now. I know the Western Regionals posted at least the trick runs as well (very impressive). If you've got old video of yourself or friends, have the kids critique it. They'll get a kick out of it and it helps them to think about what should be happening.  Sounds like you're doing a really good thing!  Best of luck. John

Sure, we'll ski all winter. Matter of fact I'm thinking of waxing up right now... Oh, different skiing. We have had a crazy fall, still running in the low to mid 80's, which is way too warm for the end of Sept., and the skiing continues until the mountains open. Then it's time to chase gates instead of buoys.

Does anyone else feel that the current trend towards one day tourneys and slalom only, entry-limited 3rd tourneys are guiding us away from the social tournament vibe?Â

For? Did you hear about the new laser guided steering system that is in testing? I heard there were different parameters for when and how hard it corrects on you when you pull it off line. http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif kidding - How would that be for generating a few posts? BTW John - do you have any more of those BOS stickers like the one on the Z7 you sent? My kid's been asking for one.

Hoping to get a set in this afternoon with a Nock and a Freyschlag if they can make it. Back on topic, Mark you can contact me directly if you like nego_john at msn.com. I'm a local tournament skier, and also a realtor, and am familiar with most of the lakes/clubs around Denver.  John

ps - I've seen it, and to have Drago, a very serious skier, Â give the kids that respect really does make an impression on them and spurs them on.Â

INT limited to 4 passes when it was around here, and that's one of the things I didn't like about the format. As the father of a couple of kids, I want to say thanks to the tournament workers and competitors who let the kids run their passes and foster a sense of fun and accomplishment. Even when it was like watching paint dry :-). Now the kids have been at it a few years and still go to the tournaments and jump in the water at 7:30, letting us old guys ski when it warms up. They still run 4-6 passes, though, in many of the tournaments, and they do start a little faster now. The problem with limiting kids is they can get a different boat, wake up feeling good, whatever, and pick up a full pass!  Saturday my older boy ran a pass he'd never run in practice or a tourney (and it was his 4th pass). Upped his PB by 6 buoys, practice or tourn. I guess that's the joy of being young. Should they have dropped him?  As a driver and a judge, personally I love it when people young or old run a lot of passes. If we had 100+ skiers it may be an issue, but lately the tournaments end pretty early.  Moving the tournaments along is vital to a smooth running tourney, but to me that means each and every competitor gets the same, quality opportunity to perform their best, and to have such a good experience that they want to keep coming back. my .02, JohnÂ

Laku is a fantastic site, but still an hour out of Denver. For better crowds with a decent ski lake you can't beat Sloans Lake - just west of Downtown Denver. Either way it would be great to see it come to Colorado!

Moving the bindings back really seemed to smooth out the turns, so I've been running them that way (08 Animals). I feel the Z7 comes out of the ball as quick as anything out there, and is really fast when pushed. It will be interesting to see how the 68" works out for you - I bet it will be really good. The 67" doesn't ski "long" at all in my book. Joe, on your 67 demo, did you find both turns to be symmetrical, or was it kind of an either/or depending on your setup? Where did you end up on settings?  John

A quick update on the progress of the Z7. After pussyfooting around different settings I just set it back to stock (updated D3 settings of 2.500, 6.900, a little back at .730, and one hole back on binders). The ski feels really, really good now. On-side is phenomenal, off-side is good, and width is free and effortless. The 35's are coming back and I'm bummed the water is starting to cool down. Really thinking about leading with my hips on the off side is helping with that turn. The nice thing about the ski is if I blow it a little I can drop the hammer through the wakes and still stay in the pass. Angle is still fantastic!   I'm still going to try to get the off-side dialed in - going stock with the front boot made the ski feel a little unstable with the previous settings, but I may try it again just to make sure. Other than the off side turn, the only thing I'm struggling with is my timing on my gate. The Z7 glides much better than my previous ski and I'm finding that I need to adjust the intensity and timing of my pullout. I am just amazed at how good the stock settings are for this ski! Also, I tried it at 36 mph 28' off and it was killer! Not my usual speed, but it sure was fun.  John

Like you I've driven a number of events with ZO from B1-M? With the kids I usually pull them up then go about 25% past engagement (I think?). With the 34/36 mph skiers I just smoothly roll it to the stops to give it all its got - power is usually an issue at elevation these days. Seems to work every time and is such an easy system to drive. John

Yeah, that was my thought as well, but it was worth a shot. I knew today was going to be a short one, so I broke my rules and changed it all at once after thinking about this thread. I like your thinking! Here's where I went last night after posting - .719, 2.500, 6.915, wing at 7d. As you thought, the width was much better, and the ski was feeling more "normal". The other thing I did was change to my new binders, still Animals. However the updated plate makes me use more cant on the rear than the old one, giving a harder turn. The other thing I felt today was a hesitation after the ball, kind of a float before the boat picked me up. I think next set I'll shoot for less tip, probably 6.900 as suggested. I always did like less tip in the fin. Then on to the dft. Thanks for the help! BTW, I think the Z7 has great potential, and I'm looking forward to getting it dialed in!  John

Oops...make that length 6.957, not 6.857. I'll probably be pulling some tip out as well.  John

First day on Z7 review. Ok, I bit the bullet and took John's Z7 off his hands (thanks!). I mounted it up with Animals at 30, and left Horton's settings (2.489, 6.857, .709, no wing). First set toeside was great, angle was great, but heel side was sluggish (no other way to describe it). 2nd set, moved front boot back one hole. On side, or heel side, was much better, turning on the ball, and the toe side turns still great, maybe a little muted. 3rd set no changes to the ski, but switched to a 2008 SN with ZO. With this setup, 28s are feeling very nice, 32's pretty nice, but I have to work more than expected. Only tried a couple of 35s. Going out again tomorrow, but I'm still tossing around what to do with the fin. Turns are feeling good, although there is too much bite if I get too agressive. Angle across the wake is excellent. I'm early, but just not wide for whatever reason. I'm getting the occasional onside wheelie as well. Reading back through this thread, I'm thinking I'll add a wing first. Next, maybe a little more depth, again to gain width. It seems that everyone else is further forward, so I may try that depending on the other results. The flip side would be to go way shallower which someone suggested. The feel I'd like to get is the smooth turns, but a little freer feel from the wake to the ball, and a little less bite when I jump on it.    Any other suggestions would be welcome! John

The last time I had the opportunity to test multiple skis of the same model was the 2001 HO Phantom days. There definitely was a difference in skis, and I was able to select the best one for me. The difference was more of feel than buoy count, though. On the consistent side, I also have had multiple Carbonworx Outlaws, both 67 and 68 inch models. I have a fin/fin box setup for each size, and can drop that setup into pretty much any CWX blank and run the same scores immediately.ÂÂ