AdamCord

@mrpreuss @gavski The problem is you guys are looking at the result of what the skier is doing with their body positioning, which is they end up with the handle pinned to their body in the preturn, and you're not seeing what allowed them to get the handle there in the first place. Yes, at the earlier rope lengths when the loads are light and you can transition early, you probably can pull the handle in and get some amount of benefit out of it. But as the rope gets shorter your transition will happen later, the loads will increase, and you'll find that what was working great at 32off goes out the window. The question to ask is what are all these top skiers doing with their feet, hips, COM, etc. that lets them land in the preturn with the handle so tight to their body even at 39 and 41? I promise it is not pulling in as hard as they can on the handle. The process starts before the 1st wake.

@matthewbrown not to mention the fact that the load at that point is going to be what…300+lbs? I know @Horton is pretty jacked but I don’t know if he can curl that.

Looking good @Horton but you’ve got way too much rope there

@tjm I agree, @horton let’s hear the review!!

@Cnewbert even the modern engines that do not have very high compression use what's called adaptive learn technology or adaptive timing depending on the brand. This allows these engines to advance the timing further, which creates more power, when using higher octane fuel. These engines are not at risk of damage like the higher compression engines, but they still will have more power and ski better with higher octane fuel. That's why Mastercraft still highly recommends using 93 octane even in their 6.0L engines. I know they did a back to back test using 87 and 93 octane behind the 6.0L Mastercraft down at trophy lakes a few weeks ago and everyone skied better with the 93 octane gas. Some people gained an entire pass.

@Bruce_Butterfield you can’t let a little caps lock rattle you so much ? And I’d love to set up a blind test, especially with larger skiers like yourself, so we can see who is and isn’t effected by octane in these DI boats. I think you’d be blown away. The engine manufacturers don’t highly recommend 93 octane just because they feel like it.

@DW I believe that battery state of charge and degradation is something that can be accounted for in software. At least based on the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of the Tesla Model S and the Porsche Taycan, it sounds like they are pretty consistent across a wide state of charge. But I get your point, the debate will probably never end ? Somehow I touched a nerve with this thread. @Horton should just add octane rating to the list of banned subjects like politics and religion ??‍♂️

So the whole goal of this thread was to bring attention to this issue with new DI boats at the higher end of the sport. I gotta say from that perspective it sounds like this has been a resounding success. Thanks to @eleeski, @MarcusBrown and many others for bringing the attention to this issue that was needed! Thanks @Horton for confirming with the Mastercraft engineers what many of us trying to run very shortline have been feeling the last couple years. I honestly wish the fuel type didn’t matter. It would be cheaper to ski and it would be one less thing to worry about when headed to a tourney. Lastly my offer still stands - anyone with deep pockets want to help me develop and electric boat drivetrain? Then we will never have to talk about octane ratings again :o

@MarcusBrown as I stayed previously in this thread, the LOUD title was meant to get the attention of tournament organizers, especially for high level tournaments. I couldn’t care less what someone does with their own boat on their own lake. That being said…the DI engines in these boats were all tuned to run on 93, and they all ski better on 93. So if you’ve already gone as far as buying one of these boats, why not give it the gas it was designed for? I gotta say, I certainly feel a lot closer to the flow point when I’m skiing wide and early with less effort than I do when I’m fighting to make it to buoy width with an underpowered boat.

@MarcusBrown why even bother wasting money on that fancy ski boat, the flow can be found behind anything

@DW that’s actually a great idea. These DI engines may have enough power on 87, they just are not mapped with the ZO for it to work well.

@klindy yes absolutely! Anyone with a lot of money who wants to start a company making electric drivetrains for boats let me know. B)

@Bracemaker this thread was mostly aimed at tournament organizers and promo boat owners. The difference in the boat’s performance becomes much more apparent the shorter the rope gets. That being said, anyone who is cutting rope will find it easier to get wide and early with the proper fuel in the boat. If you use your boat for pulling kids, tubing, etc or you are not trying to cut rope and run your best scores then yes, 87 octane is fine. If you are trying to ski your best or are putting on a tournament where you want people to run PBs then 93 octane is a MUST. If it were up to me Regionals, Nationals, all Pro Events, and heck even all record events would be required to use it with all these new boats. These engines are not the carbureted 350s we grew up with. As @skiinxs said you can use a Diacom to see the derate when using lower grade fuel. When GM developed these engines they actually made a case to try and make Premium the minimum available at the pumps! https://www.google.com/amp/s/gmauthority.com/blog/2018/03/gm-once-again-calls-for-premium-gasoline-to-become-new-standard/amp/

@lpskier are you telling me that the 11th ranked Open slalom skier in the world and also the 34mph record holder, who spends his days standing inside a test cell pushing marine engines to their limit, MIGHT know more than some armchair critics about how different fuels will effect the performance of a high compression boat engine as the rope gets short?

Someone who has measured gas used per set can chime in on this, but I’m guessing it’s between 1 and 2 gallons. If we round up and say it’s 2 gallons and look at average fuel prices in USA: It’s about a $0.60/gallon difference between regular (87) and premium (93) fuel. So rounding up to 2 gallons per set that’s max $1.20 extra per set to ski behind a boat that’s running well and giving you a really good pull instead of a boat that is underpowered and making you consider quitting and taking up golf.

All of the later model boats have high compression engines that were designed to run on 93 octane (US Octane) fuel. They all have the ability to run on 87 but that does NOT mean you are getting the best out of your boat. We are asking the boat to react very quickly to a skier who is doing everything they can slow that boat down. The Zero Off programming and the engine torque curves were optimized by the engine engineers using HIGH octane fuel! When you use a lower octane the engine will retard the timing and reduce the power of the engine. You might think you can't tell a difference, but I promise you it is hurting your scores. All of the big three slalom boats ski MUCH better, especially as the rope gets very short, with high octane fuel. These boats are very expensive. The price difference you pay to use 93 vs 87 octane is minimal in comparison, so why not get the best out of your boat? Especially in a tournament every boat should be using 93 octane. Each of the manufactures state this plainly in their manuals. Mastercraft: Malibu: Nautique: So please, for the love of god, stop using lawn mower fuel in your $90k+ ski boat

5’9” @adamhcaldwell pulled up just inside of 5 ball at 41 yesterday at the Trophy Lakes record tournament skiing 36mph! New PB 4@41 at the age of 38, will be 39 next month. He’s been testing skis and fin settings nonstop this spring so I think he only rode the c85 he’s on now for less than a week leading up to the tourney. That dude is an animal

Thanks @matthewbrown ! Yes I’ve been working on finding the balance through that transition for a while. A few things really clicked this past week that made it much easier for me to execute. People ask me all the time what I mean when I talk about skiing the handle path, this is what I mean!

@Gloersen there’s a lot to unpack there- First thing I’m talking about is too much angle behind the boat. This is not the same thing as too much load. If you take too much angle at 41 even if you are fast and light, the direction change alone as the rope swings up and around the boat will cause you to lose connection too soon before the preturn. I’d rather take less angle and ski more of a straight path to apex since that will more closely match the handle path and make it much easier to stay connected all the way to the preturn. The second thing is about speed. I can do the above fairly well from a really really high point on the gate turn in, but if I do I’ll be passing the driver at the same time I need to be releasing and letting the boat get ahead of me. If I’m still up next to the driver when it’s time come back from apex I either ski into a pile of slack, or I have to travel further down course in order to wait for the boat to leave me. Either way my “fast” gate will cause me to be much further down course when it’s time to start pulling to 2. So I’ve changed to turning in at a slightly narrower point on the gate, try to get the rope loaded early, and make an effort to never let the ski have more than 45 degrees of angle when crossing centerline. This lets me stay connected all the way to the preturn without passing the driver, and even though I’m not apexing way up course like I do on the earlier passes, I can keep the line tight enough to run the pass. This is what I think Fred Winter does really well.

Some people have asked me to send them the raw video so they can watch slomo so I went ahead and uploaded to YouTube. Missed gates and driver came way over on 6, otherwise I think it looks fairly legit. I won’t get to ski again for a week because of work so will be a while before I can try and back it up:

@LakeOneSkier swipe left on the video or click the little arrow.

@Wish you expect me to give away the secrets to 41 for free??? Ok fine here’s the basics of the science @Gloersen: I was trying to take too much speed and angle into the gate, which made sense to me. I mean it’s 41, right? The cost to all that speed and angle is twofold. First, you’re absolutely going to get separated going into 1 at 41 with too much angle through the gate. The handle is changing direction so fast that if you’re not prepared to change with it, you’re screwed. Second is that there is such a thing as TOO high on the boat at the buoy. If you’re up next to the driver passing the boat, you have to wait a loooong time for the line to come tight so that you can make a turn. So I started taking a slower, less angle gate and just focused on jacking my hips up to the handle and staying connected to ride the handle swing up to the turn apex. Once I started to get the hang of that I was finding myself coming out of 1 ball in decent position with a tight line. That’s the run 41 starter pack. Buy the book to learn the rest B)

@ISP6ball Dont listen to @Horton , he’s the finicky one. https://denaliskis.com/pages/fin-setup-guide

Thanks everyone! I know it's practice and practice scores don't count, but man it feels good to get through that pass. When Caldwell and I started designing our own skis 10 years ago we joked about making a ski that would get even wallys like us through 41 :D I've been getting closer to running it this spring as I switched back to skiing 34 (skied 36 all winter) and have been getting dialed in on the new ski. That and some ideas that @adamhcaldwell has been telling me for 2 years about how to hit my gate swing finally clicked with me. The other big factor is Hilltop Lake! That place skis awesome and with Ron Martin, Lisa Thoms, Shannon Strickland, Gordon Skoog, and a lot of other really good drivers up there I am for the first time able to get consistent training with good driving, which goes a loooooong way at 41. I just wish we had some record tournaments up in the PNW right now!!

@Ali it depends on the Internet upload speed available at the lake