GK

Great rule focusing on the novice level of our sport! ZBS benefits the novice to intermediate level of our sport. These rules are designed to keep more people skiing tournaments and that's a good thing. Ohio adopted a mini-course policy as part of our novice rule a few years ago and we saw a really good increase in both young junior skiers as well as wives of shortline skiers who started participating.

For all the high end skiers who do not want the stress of competing against people who might be going 36 mph, then just cap the MM division at 34 mph. That was the point of that division, to give the best 34 mph skiers in the country a place to compete. Also, we are still capping juniors divisions, so I don't think it's unreasonable to lower the caps for M7/W7 and up.

Why would it need to be "Optional" for Class C Tournaments? If you're going to give it a try and if the new ZBS rule ends up being modified, why not make it mandatory for all Class C tournaments and let the skiers decide if they want it as opposed to the LOC? @Horton, thank you for rescinding your Panda. This is the conversation I was surprised I hadn't seen on here and I must say it's been a great, respectful debate by all.

It's really not confusing and the ranking list will have very little change.

It seems that most people are in agreement with ZBS and not requiring skiers to go max speed. There is no reason we would need two scoring charts or two ranking lists. The issue is whether or not you should be allowed to increase speed beyond the current maximums. I don't really think we'll know for sure how the speed increase option will affect anything unless we try it for a year and see how many people truly opt up in speed. My thought is that if you're capable of skiing 36 mph at ultra-short line lengths then you're probably the better skier and deserve to win your division. If you're a grown man, a fall at 36 mph vs 34 mph isn't going to make a difference. In some cases it will be better and others it will be worse, so I don't really buy the safety argument.

@ToddL, "Does this impact the Buckeye Buoy Tour scoring spreadsheets?" -- Yes, the spreadsheets will need to be updated but ZBS will actually simplify the spreadsheet. Right now it very complicated because it has to look at the skiers division, then determine max speed based on division, then find the right buoy count. It's a big chart where as with ZBS the buoy count is the same for every person regardless of what division they're in. It also simplifies the Buckeye Buoy Tour scoring because no longer will their be a 12 buoy bump if you're starting at 15 off and then ski your max speed. If your average is 3 buoys @ 15 off, then you had to run 15 off or your buoy count was scored at Longline. Tough position to be in. I will be happy to update the spreadsheets and distribute them to anyone who wants a copy. @ALPJr, Yes, you can opt for 36 mph at M3 and up.

OK, there isn't a ton of data from the past few years but here is what I found when skiers moved from M2 to M3 (using initials to save on space). This shows skier, their top score, and their average for the year. D.H. - 2015 - M2 - 4.5 @ 38 off - 105.33 avg D.H. - 2016 - M3 - 5 @ 39 off - 106.17 avg A.W. - 2015 - M2 - 4 @ 38 off - 106 avg A.W. - 2016 - M3 - 2 @ 39 off - 104 avg G.F. - 2014 - M2 - 2 @ 38 off - 102.33 avg G.F. - 1015 - M3 - 2.5 @ 39 off - 104.17 avg T.B. - 2014 - M2 - 3 @ 39 off - 108.83 (typical scores much lower) T.B. - 2015 - M3 - 3 @ 39 off - 104.33 B.S. - 2013 - M2 - 4 @ 38 off - 105.5 avg B.S. - 2014 - M3 - 4 @ 39 off - 105.8 avg M.P. - 2009 - M2 - 2 @ 38 off - 102.83 avg M.P. - 2010 - M3 - 4 @ 39 off - 106 avg I'm sure there are more examples out there if I wanted to go back further, but there are a few things I learned... 1. Those with higher scores are in OM and typically continue in OM beyond 35 years old and ultimately end up in M3 or MM at some point. That's why you don't see data into 41 off. 2. The average adjustment really is approximately 6 buoys even for those few skiers who are into 38 off 36 mph / 39 off 34 mph. T.B. above was the biggest exception but he had a couple serious outliers at 36. I wanted to include so it didn't appear that I was cherry-picking data. 3. I was surprised out how small the percentage of skiers getting into these ultra short line lengths really is. Just in the last 3 years there were only 5 examples. I started in just M3 Level 9 and had to expand into Level 8 to get a few more data points. You would think there would be more but a lot of the skiers didn't even have M2 scores or they were much lower level skiers back when they were in M2 so the data was less valuable for true shortline conversion. @Chad_Scott, I don't believe that this is THE answer, but I do believe that over time it could have a very good impact on our tournament numbers as it's more skier friendly for the vast majority of waterskiers who might be interested in skiing in a tournament. I'm not against adjusting the rules to exclude "E" events. If keeping Regionals and Nationals at a capped speed will keep people happy then so be it, we'll still get the benefit of the change at the local level. Keep it in the rankings list though because that's important to the lower level skiers. The compromise of capping speeds at current levels is not a horrible option either, however I think it takes some fun out of it. I'm was forced to drop to 34 mph last year when I entered M3. I like skiing 34 and will continue to do so but I also am a little bit excited about giving 36 a go if I'm feeling good for a round or 2. It's not about whether I can get an extra .5 buoy, it's about having fun. In Ohio (where we had 18% membership growth last year) most of our primary tournaments are handicapped with actual competition for every skier who participates. No age levels, no ability levels...true handicapped competition against the entire field of skiers on that day. ZBS will just add another element of FUN to those great events. Those types of handicapped events are THE answer.

@Horton, you are correct, if we leave it the way it is then nothing changes...and we continue to not grow the sport of tournament waterskiing. @Chad_Scott, You say it is an advantage if you can go out and ski 36 mph, is it not true that there is less room for error at 36 mph? You may make a mistake at 1 ball from which you can't recover that you would have recovered had you been skiing 34 mph at one length shorter. For guys running into 41 off at any speed, should they not be considered MM or Open and perhaps those divisions should be capped at both 34 & 36 for those truly elite shortline skiers?

@lottawatta I'm all for reducing the size of the rulebook but I'm not sure the ZBS rule has anything to do with that. Heck, the entire change didn't add more than a few sentences to the rulebook when you account for the sections that were deleted because of it. I agree with LeonL that it doesn't complicate things any more than they already are and this rule has merit for growing tournament waterskiing at the local level which is where we should be focused. An event with true public exposure can be run however the organizer wants to run it. In other words, if it's a pro event, big dawg, etc then the organizer can force the skiers to go whatever speed they deem best for the event. I've known a number of skiers coming out of college who had no interest in skiing AWSA tournaments because they couldn't consistently ski 36 mph. If they had the option to go 32 or 34 that may have been different. I always ask myself the same question in these instances. Would this change make events more COMPETITIVE or more FUN. In this case, I believe it would make our local events more FUN. If it does one of those two things then it will help grow tournament waterskiing.

Give me a panda all you want but none of those threads present much of a discussion on ZBS and I thought it important that people know what is happening with the attempt to overturn the new rule. Perhaps the lack of discussion proves that the rule is supported by the vast majority of skiers on here otherwise there would be much more "complaining" happening. If the people who support it don't speak up in a big way, then a small minority of our membership are going to have it overturned. I just don't want to see that happen.

I'm surprised that there has been very little discussion on here about Zero Based Scoring that was recently approved, yet I learn tonight that there is a massive campaign to have it reversed and that the regions are currently discussing and will be voting on whether to keep it in place. I know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and I'm afraid that's what is going to happen with this GREAT new rule. Finally our leaders have passed a rule geared towards the betterment and growth of tournament skiing for ALL potential tournament skiers and NOT just the elite "record capable" crowd. Zero Based Scoring allows skiers of any age and ability level to start shortening the rope at ANY speed they deem best for them. No more losing people at tournaments because they are forced to go 36 mph and they're not comfortable with it. People want to shorten the rope, that's FUN. On the other side of the coin, we've had discussion on BOS for years about why people are forced to reduce their speed at a certain age? We finally get a rule that allows some flexibility and we've got a bunch of people who are afraid of change because it might affect their placement somewhere in the future. They may argue that it's a safety issue but that's BS. You can get hurt at any speed and if the data is out there I'll bet it's a similar percentage of skiers getting hurt regardless of the speed. Our sport should be about the best skier on any given day winning an event. If you can edge out your competition by going 2 miles per hour faster, then good on you. There will be just as many instances where they make a mistake from which they could have recovered if they were going 2 mph slower. If you are in support of Zero Based Scoring, then I strongly suggest you contact your state representative and tell them you are in favor of it and they should vote to keep it in place. If you don't, a few squeaky wheels are going to get it reversed for the many skiers that it would greatly benefit.

@LeonL, we do run it as you describe where Skier 1 runs Pass 1 and then Skier 2 runs pass 1, HOWEVER you have lots of situations where Skier 1 falls on his 2nd pass and Skier 2 runs 4 passes. So during that down time Skier 1 boat can be getting the next skier ready to go at the dock. @OB1, Horton is exactly right. You sort your skiers based on average buoy count and draw your brackets. It's not complicated but can take a little bit of time to get your winner brackets and losers bracket dialed in based on how many skiers you have and whether you're doing double elimination through the entire bracket. You can run 40 skiers in 1 day or 80 skiers in 2 days guaranteeing everyone gets 2 rounds minimum. You lose twice and you're done (double elimination). In our case, skiers are ultimately skiing against their average. We have required at some events that skiers start at a certain speed/line length below their average so they both reach their average pass at the same time. More recently however, we've just allowed them to start wherever they want and it's really not a big deal if they're ending on the same "Average" pass. The fun part is dropping in the water next to your opponent, knowing they're the person you have to beat, some people like to do a little jawing and joking around such as "look out for those rollers at 2 ball", and ultimately watching that person go run a full pass and know that you've got to push yourself to your best potential because the other skier just upped the bar!

I don't know the average time, but we run 2 boats H2H for a number of our tournament formats and it always seems to speed things up. Just the time you save while one skier is finishing up and the 2nd boat is getting the next skier dialed in at the dock adds up over the course of a day and the wait times at the ends are shorter. The 2nd boat can typically take off with their skier soon after Boat #1 has exited the course.

We need to simplify our rules and scoring, not make them more difficult to understand. The chart above makes perfect sense and should be implemented for all divisions. I disagree that running 36 mph is going to be an advantage at every age division and if someone is winning at 36 mph vs others at slower speeds, then it's probably because they're the better skier.

See attached brackets... This one was from 2008, you might see some names on there you know with much lower averages than they would have today!

We already do it. It's a blast! 2 boats is the best way to go, keeps the event moving, saves times, and is a lot of fun. Winner usually gets 6 rounds in one day! Typically the later rounds you're required to start one or two passes below your average.

Make 36 mph the max speed for ALL divisions, men and women, and then let the skier decide what they want their max speed to be and when they will shorten the rope. 6 buoy difference for every 3KPH speed change. Would be very simple to implement.

ToddL, I agree with your assessment of 3 distinct ability levels. For many of our handicapped formats the Field of Skiers is divided into 3 even groups of skiers much like you describe. Those skiers compete against each other to make the finals out of their group. Only in the Finals do you have a Novice skier competing directly against an Advanced skier. Since the Novice skiers have raised their average during the early rounds, the Advanced skiers are more easily able to compete with them in the Finals. When it comes to handicapping, the format of the event is just as important as the handicapping calculation.

If Ability Based Skiing (ABS) worked, then INT would be thriving and they're losing numbers faster than AWSA (at least in our area). There are a couple major problems with ABS in our events... 1. Sandbagging to stay in one division over another is an issue (ask the INT coordinators). 2. The bigger issue is you still end up with almost 20 divisions. That's certainly better than 34 but we only have 20 to 50 skiers at our local events. On average you'll be lucky to have 2 or 3 other skiers in your division. This does not create more competition. ABS could work for larger regional and national events where you have hundreds of skiers, but what we need for local events with 20 to 50 skiers is a simple handicapping system so that instead of 20 divisions there is ONE division. Then the LOC can afford awards for the Top finishers without needing awards for every division. Ohio has a handicapping system, Horton has a handicapping system, and I know there are others out there as well. Let's come up with the best hybrid of them all and start getting back to COMPETING!

I agree, Broadside Harbor did a fantastic job and I would not be disappointed to go back! Great job to all involved!

I love both of those ideas! Nice work Indiana! Make it fun and the people will come.

We had a great thing happen at the Ohio State Championships this past weekend. EIGHT Boys 1 skiers of which 5 didn't even score a buoy at 15 mph. Most of them ran multiple passes at slower speeds on either 2 skis or in one case a trick ski. Our novice rule has been working well. We give novice skiers the option of 2 passes in the mini-course and then a mulligan in the big course. So for most it works out to 4 passes minimum. We get some complaints about how long it takes for those skiers because it never fails that they fall at least once, lose their skis, miss a get-up, or whatever it might be but this is a great foundation for future junior skiers and they're having fun!

We always hit the Mexican restaurant at the end of the day in Van Wert! My son just told me the other day that going to the Mexican restaurant with all his ski friends was one of his favorite things about waterskiing. Ha!

@Ilivetoski you've got it right, 2 rounds of qualifying and then the finals from there. A head-to-head finals is definitely one option. Up to 6 rounds can be scored towards the rankings list so long as 50% of the field is eliminated through competition after round 3 (it does require approval by the EVP). @A_B skied in one Buckeye Buoy Tour stop about 4 years ago and ran 32 off at 32 mph! It was epic! It's a format that is coming back for the 2nd time ever this season only a stones throw from @A_B. Skiers are divided into team at the beginning of the tournament based on their averages (so each team will have deep shortline skiers through beginners). There are 2 rounds of straight up slalom which will determine the seeding for each team in the finals. We call the finals "Run the Gamut" and the winning team is the team who can run 28 mph, 30 mph, 32 mph, 34 mph, 36 mph, 22 off, 28 off, and 32 off, in order, in the shortest amount of time. Each team must make 3 skier swaps (4 skiers). The clock starts when the first skier hits the entry gates at 28 mph and ends when the last skier hits the exit gates at 32 off. Some important strategies come into play like spinning on the ends and running the shortline passes at the highest speed possible to save time but if you miss a pass, your team is in trouble because it eats a lot of time picking up the skier and starting that pass over. It is the most talked about format we have ever done, people had a blast! We had a W1 skier that had to run the 36 mph for her team and smoked it! Also had a M4 skier who had to run the 36 mph pass for his team and did it with no issue. You can run the speed passes at any line length you choose and the shortline passes at any speed you want. @A_B and I were on the same team. Our first skier was @ScarletArrow who went off at 28 mph and then missed his 30 mph pass coming back (rookie mistake)! So he drops at the end and our next skier who was supposed to run 32 and 34 goes out and runs 30 and 32, which left me holding the bag for at least 3 passes. I ran 34 22off for pass #1, spun at the end and increased to 36 mph for pass #2, spun at the end and ran it again for pass #3, then dropped quickly and ran 28 off. I was worn out after spinning on 2 ends in a row. @A_B wrapped it up for us with his 32 off pass which he ran at 32 mph just to be safe! We had fun. @A_B lives like an hour from Van Wert. Keep working on him! :smiley:

@Bill22, you probably figured it out, but basically we pull averages from the top 3 tournaments over the past 12 months. If you haven't skied any tournaments, then we assign you one based on practice scores for your first event. We've had at least one tour stop out of about 40 where we had a first time tournament skier win the entire event. Needless to say it wasn't the last time we saw the young lady. ;-) It's great to hear you're coming to our last event (I assume the Friday event prior to the State Championships). I look forward to meeting you!