Rich

Yes that makes sense and is what many skiers do. I work on relaxing my ankles & knees and point them in the direction I want to go. I want to keep the ski "light" and moving forward as I move in towards the wake. So I stand up as I go to the apex, and relax as I come around the ball. The work is in front of the ball. "Stand tall at the ball"

Keeping the handle low and elbows in is very important. However countering is done with your core and back. By keeping the handle in and close is VERY IMPORTANT. the handle will go away from the body as you travel outbound to the ball. Stay over the ski as you move out, I actually pull myself up and over the ski as I approach the apex

Counter doesn't start at the ankles. try "countering" your ankles, I don't think you can. I believe what you are talking about is the seperation of the upper and lower body off the 2nd wake. As you come off the 2nd wake you will go into a "chair position" as the line gets shorter the chair position will become more exterme. I believe this is because of the "hole" or dip in the wake at 38 & 39 and the pressure from the boat moving forward also becomes more extreme as you pass the center line. I'm a BIG beliver in "counter resistance" I counter my hip & shoulders away from the direction the boat is trying to take them. At the 2nd wake the skier wants the lower body to arc out free and the upper body to be completly engaged with the rope attched to the boat which is going straight forward as the skier is moving out away from the center line. The turn should start at the white water and end close to the white water. Counter can be felt most as you move out bound off the 2nd wake. At the apex the line should be pulled from your hand which is the reach. The ski will come around as it slows down from the reach. 2nd hand comes back on the handle which produces excelleration. Lean in the direction of travel (stay with the ski) don't fall back The counter begins again as the 2nd hand comes on the handle. Always counter resist away from the direction the boat wants to take you. Each turn is the same with the exception of the "0" ball or gate which has more space/distance and allows the skier to make a longer slower turn.

counter rotation in water sking is subtle. Great timing along with moving COM forward along with resisting the forward movement of the boat as the skier travels side to side is "countering". As my sking has evolved I still consider counter rotation a very important part of my sking. It is not done when the skier is in the reach with one hand. (in fact by countering too much at the apex creates unnecessary movement making the skier less efficient) Counter starts in a big way as the skier moves out off the 2nd wake, Resisting the forward motion of the boat as the skier moves out. I feel it in my upper body & outside arm. The part that is difficult to explain is not leaning back, but keeping tension on the line as the skier moves in from the turn, ankles forward, knees bent forward, shoulders open the skier needs to "feel" the forward motion and not lean back and away. The skier needs to "feel" the forward motion and allow the boat to sling the skier forward. I can see it (when a skier does it), I can feel it, however explaning it is difficult. When I ski best I ski most efficient. By being efficient the skier needs to resist the force moving the skier forward and use that force to travel at the most efficient speed and angle. Most skiers get too much angle too early, can not hold that angle off the 2nd wake in a countered postion and get pulled into the next turn losing outbound angle as the skier reaches the apex. I know I have added a bunch of other aspects into "counter rotation" I see sking as an efficient managment of speed and angle, countering is a part of the entire equation.

as a LFF skier I turn my rear foot clockrise, that is also like moving it back slightly. l turn my front foot counter clock wise, also like moving the front foot back. I believe that for my body this puts me in a more athletic position. It also allows me to get my right hip more over my front foot and in an open position on off side lean. Canting is actually lifting on the side of the boot higher/lower. I believe you are talking about twisting/rotating.

Watch Nate Smith, I'm sure you have, and its easier to see on him because he is so thin. Watch what he does with his arm going into his good side. I really try to feel the tension in the lead arm. By countering with both hands on the handle the inside arm will bend as you move towards the apex if you keep the lead arm straight. That is what I feel and do. At 38 and 39 the line tension is so great at the white water off the 2nd wake I do feel more tension in both arms, and I do pull myself up over the ski a bit more on thoses passes. At 35 and longer the rope pull is pretty light and I can keep the handle close to my body by countering away from the boat as I move out. At 38 I do pull in a bit to stay over the ski on the white water out. It seems to work really good. As I said 38 has become an automatic easy pass, and 39 is doable with that technique.

@than, good job of understanding what I said. As you let go of the line at the apex it will feel like you are grabbing a pole. If you don't feel that you have let the tension get away to soon. You hold that tension all the way out. It does look easy when done correctly and is more something you feel rather than obseve. When you watch it it doesn't look hard, but believe me it is difficult and timing and strength are big factors in doing it and making it all work. As I have gotten better at this my 38's are automatic and I'm starting to run 39. At 39 the rope pull off the 2nd wake is very hard and very fast. I'm currently experiencing moving up my "game speed" to run 39 as it happens so fast and is so intense. Yesterday in practice I ran 6 38's the 1 39 I attempted and realize that the moment off the 2nd wake is critical to short line slalom. Untill you "get" that part of slalom getting to the next level is next to imposible. At 5'7" I have to be almost perfect in this technique.

@Jim No I don't feel that pressure on my trailing arm off the 2nd wake. That would not be good as it would twist me towards the boat. I want to feel it in my lead arm and rotate away from the boat as I go out. As you go out the lead arm will stay straight, the trailing arm will bend as you ski over the line from the skier to the pylon. the closer you get to the apex the more you ski over the line, the more the inside arm will bend provided you keep rotating away from the boat and keep the line tight on your body.

trailing arm presure? I hear about it, however as I watch top pros almost all seem to load the lead arm and it is straight.

on your gate out which is fine as a LFF, however you are missing one part. As you go out make sure your left (lead arm) is straight, locked and feels load as you go out. Keep the load on the left arm at the apex. Keep left arm straight and ski over the line from the boat and have your body come way up with the line, over the front foot. Stay on edge (left edge of ski longer) When you are reaching the window to carve in for the gate then you can turn your body in like you have done in the video and start to feel the load switch from the left to the right arm that will become locked and loaded at the white water. Upper body stays over the ski. This will give you a better appoach into the gate. RFF doesn't need to counter like I described because of the hip position of RFF when turning in. This is important for LFF on the gate. Keep the left arm straight and loaded threw the white water, off the 2nd wake is where you will resist the most and twist away as you keep the handle as close to your body as possible as you move out and away off the 2nd wake.

Hey Jim, You want the truth and nothining but the truth? Right. You COM is always slightly back. You need to move up on the ski. As you start to leave the 2nd wake going into 1 3 5 you need to counter more with both hands on the handle. You are moving slightly towards (with upper body) the boat as you move out off the 2nd wake. It is slight however it will make a BIG difference in how much more space you will get as you carve out. You apear to relax a little at that point, the biggest resistance by YOU starts at the 2nd wake as you move out. YOU counter with your upper body when your hand leaves the handle. That puts you back. When the 2nd hand comes on the handle you want your body to stay with the ski. You fall slightly back and away. It is slight but it will make a big difference if you can stay with your ski more. That all being said, you are putting effort into areas that aren't paying off ( leaning away & back after the 2nd hand comes back on the handle) and relaxing when the biggest effort needs to happen. ( off the 2nd wake) I would also say that core strength and strength to weight ratio are an issue to get to the next level and become more consistent. I hope this isn't to harsh or personal. You are a good skier, I call what you are doing as missed timing, and its what seperates guys that run 35 from guys that run 38.

try land training is awesome. I keep my abs and glutes ungaged alot when I'm standing or sitting. Let them think you are crazy. Stay Obsessed, that will get you down the line faster! Hoping on one foot, slack line, plyo, pilates, yoga ect... all engage the core. Body awareness is essental!

I really like you gate out, arm postion. If you work on counter out wide it will keep that shoulder drop from happening. Push hands down more at the center line and you will do serious damge at 39

pretty good pass, as you work on strength in the off season this pass will be a cakewalk.

My experience with all Goode skis up to the nano1 has been bindings back allowed me to get into the sweet spot at the apex in a stacked body position. I believe it also allowed me to get the ski in front of me off the 2nd wake. As I approach apex, I'm again coming up over the ski getting more ski in the water at the apex. This allowed me to acheive more angle which = speed. On the nano1 I have maintained the stock binding position because the ski is working so well. I have played with the blade as I mentioned above, On the nano1, I was not getting the tail slide I wanted to feel on the onside and rather than go shallower on the blade I went with a 3/4 in slot and deeper blade. Its been working great.

a deeper blade holds more angle. more angle will allow you to travel distance. distance traveled = speed. Feeling fast can be a ski that is not getting as much angle. going in direction of the boat always feels fast.

I believe the nano1 is actually faster than other Goodes. It rolls up on edge and generates more cross course angle. This may "feel" slow however it is covering more distance which = speed. I have a blade I'm using that I can run deeper and is slightly better on the onside as it slides just a bit more, though subtle. The off side turn is incredible with either the stock blade on stock settings or my modified bladed run deeper 2.502. same DFT as stock & same length.

I really don't believe style has alot to do with performance. Its all about what is efficent. The goal or my goal is to get around as many balls as possible on as short of a line as possible. @Matt is right on the mark with making sure you are in a stacked position. That is what is missing in what TUP is doing. TUP looks like a very athletic guy. Even in his dry suit I could see the guy has muscle. My 1st suggestion was to work on core strength. When I ski I used to get sore in my back, that was before I learned how to engage my core. I learned in the offseason in my garage (go figure) how to engage my core. I stood in front of a mirror and watched and felt how my core could engage. I also trained with pilates, plyos ect... and stopped weight training as my big muscles were over developed and my stabilization muscles were under developed. After that offseason I learned how to engage my core and stay stacked over my ski. From years of doing it incorrectly I still will FALL BACK as in hips when in trouble or get on the back foot when late. I now get sore in my obliques and abs after I ski, so I know I'm doing something right. I know I need to engage my glutes more as Matt talked about. Glutes are huge muscles and can assist us greatly in staying stacked. @toddl I agree with learning outside the course and when most skiers relax from the moment they get up to the course then engage only in the course under BIG loads, then relax again as soon as they exit. I have always coached to stay in a stacked, engaged position outside the course, its easier when there are no loads. I always make my lean out for the shortening of the line an active engagement of my entire body, and I try to "feel" the line out as I move away from the boat, as the boat is moving away and slowing down it can be quite a trick to keep the line tight and my body engaged. Even as I drop down in the water I like to feel the pressure in my outside arm/shoulder as I lower into the water staying completely connected to the line just as if I was going around a ball. My point is never relax, always look for opportunities to feel connected to the boat/line. I would be interested to see how many of you stay activly engaged outside the course. How many realized that they need to stay very engaged off the 2nd wake and not relax just because its a "preturn" All the video posted in this thread show one very common thing. All the skiers are stacked/ hips up. The skiers that ski back still keep the core completly engaged/ hips up though they ski a bit more on the back foot than the front foot. So it appears that the important thing is engaement of the core/hips up / Handle close to the body / resist the boat off the 2nd wake as it tries to rotate your body towards it (counter rotation) Start the turn at the white water and finish at the white water. Be as efficient as possible doing all of this.

as you go into the offside it is more important to resist and get your hip over your front foot. On the onside you are naturally positioned with the hip over the front foot. Think about that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMeWeoIVNOI&feature=g-vrec

@sking to heaven, be cautious of reaching forward, His problem is that he is not stacked with his COM/hips over the front foot. If he reaches forward without correcting this his COM/hips, his COM/hips will stay back as his upper body moves forward. The problem starts with where his arms & hands are behind the boat (higher than they should be and allows his COM to fall back because with high hands the upper body is doing most of the work and the legs/core/upper body are not working as a integrated unit) and continues in the transition (edge change) as he is not countering enough with his COM and upper body as he moves outbound. By correcting his handle position (hands lower, lead arm locked & loaded) behind the boat (centerline), his countering and resistance to the forward motion of the boat as he moves out off the 2nd wake & into the apex will allow more line tension off the 2nd wake into the turn which should be starting at the white water off the 2nd wake. The line will be slightly pulled from him at a few feet before the apex. and he can reach toward the pylon or where the line is coming from. An advanced movement on the offside is to reach by starting with the elbow locked to the hip and reach down (offside reaching down 1st will bring more weight over front foot because our COM is back, our hips are not as countered naturally on offside due to the way we stand on the ski) then forward or to where the line pull is coming from, on the onside start with elbow locked at the hip and reach forward or where the line pull is coming from, but not down. On the onside your hips are naturally countered already (which puts more pressure on the front foot in the preturn/transition with our COM over the fronnt foot) because of the nature of the way we stand on the ski so the ski will come back under the line easier. Thats why its our onside. Its also why we can fall back after the turn on the onside and get too much angle. We want to stay with the ski as we come around the corner (turn) on the onside and resist the urge to let our hips fall back. That takes patience and will slighltly slow the turn down allowing us to be closer to the white water at the completion, which allows us to carry the outbound direction into the next turn. I hope this makes sense : I just wanted to illustrate that most problems occur 2 to 3 steps before they recognized. As you can see all these movements are linked together. If one of the movements are left out it can cause lots of problems. Wholesale changes in timing are sometimes needed and you have to take 1 step back to make some BIG leaps forward in your progress.

here you go, when you gate out you need to come up with your hips more. Once you get out you seem to keep pressure on your lead (left) arm. I would turn in a little bit more (with upper body,head) look at the left corner at the back of the boat and allow the ski to carve into angle more, you start fairly hard from out wide, let the ski carve in a little more, think roll in and try not to load untill you get to the white water. Keep the lead arm more straight and loaded at this point, at the white water. push your hands down more. as you get to the 2nd wake keep the lead arm straight, resist and start to counter, do not allow the right shoulder to move or get twisted towards the boat. Resist as you go out (think right shoulder counter) stand up over the front foot with your hips as you approach the apex, this will get you going outbound and maintain tip pressure. Feel the line go behind you or advance your upper body over the line. Your right arm will be straight your left arm will be bent as you approach the apex, some coaches have called this "the pull up" I believe it is a function of keeping the lead arm straight, having the upper body advance over the line as you move up on the boat, which causes the inside arm to bend. If this is done correctly the line will start to be pulled from you as you arc out, that is how it should feel ( you have to be careful not to over load out wide at the start or you won't maintain outbound angle unless you are AM or superman, think resist) As the line is pulled from you, you will also find if done correctly it will roll out to your finger tips and feels very light, the ski will come under the line. As your 2nd or right hand comes on the handle, resist, don't pull, and ride the ski, don't fall back (it can feel good to allow hips to fall back on the on side) this will cause too much angle to soon and will effect outbound direction off of 2nd wake into next turn. At the white water begin to feel the load on the lead arm, keep lead arm straight and low, anklesbent, knees bent, repeat outbound direction instructions. As you can see your "handle control" is one of your biggest problems. Think about linking turns, start the turn at the white water and have a large arc all the way back to the white water. Using the discription I have given you can accomplish this kind of arc. The biggest resistance is off the 2nd wake, where most skiers relax, and not right after the turn, where most skiers "pull" the hardest, when they should just be resisting. I hope this all makes sence for you and it helps you to reach your goals. You have the athletic ability, just change your timing and handle control and you will be on your way. Good Luck!

Rich Storelee

Thanks Than, I'm glad my writing has worked for you. Believe me as I have said, I really feel it 1st then I put it into words. I have been very fortunate to have skied with some of the best skiers in the world over the last 40 years. It has also taken me a longtime to fiqure out what short line slalom is really all about. At 5'7" it is a challenge. I will share with you that 38 is not that difficult when done correctly, impossible if you do to much in the wrong places. I do know that at 38 it is a combination of great technique, a great ski, good boat driving, and great fitness. I can run 35 on any ski, behind any boat driver within reason, in bad conditions. 38 is the dividing line where you actually go faster. 15 through 35 are almost the same as speed generated is concerned. I believe that you go 3-4 mph faster at 38.

@sooner1123 try the AM33, it is a fantastic ski