BraceMaker

They're just the wrong boats to make "cheap" versions of.

Groups of buyers.

International - @BGrow76 sure a boat made and sold to places that don't want to pay for a US made boat to be shipped and imported and tariffs 100% great place to have an alternative to buying a SN or Mastercraft or Malibu if something made in mexico will play nothing would be better than the IWWF saying that Pista and Boesch and 100 other ski boats are IWWF certified and let the world stage drive the big 3 in the US into a corner.

Show ski and barefoot - Hydrodyne and sanger and whatever fast boats, outboard boats boats that go 60 and have provisions to pull pyramids, show ski, triple outboard rigs, and towers with extensions to do triple flips on your hydrofoil - don't need to be AWSA towboats and that's a thing.

Stripped down versions or 2nd tier versions of boats targeting AWSA approval your carbon pro, your ski nautique 200 - you have a ski lake you ski tournaments, you want a new boat, you don't care that you're not training behind or getting the support of being a big 3.

Buyers who live on ski lakes but the ski lake has a club boat and they just want to own a used one for less because they just use it on weekends with friends.

And then there's the HUGE market of public lake boaters who want a boat that does everything a true crossover someone stick a https://www.indmar.com/engines/23l-ecoboost/ in a DD hull based off a Prostar 205 from the mid90s or a Malibu TXi, reduce the engine cover as much as you can, modernize the top deck of the boat to get as much seating as you can, make the front bow as big as you can increase the freeboard as much as you can while just making sure it slaloms pretty OK at 28 MPH 15 off through 34 MPH 35 off and that's the boat.  You'll sell more of that than anything else that engine is 300+ HP it can have ZO off  I am your buyer.  I own 2 prostars a pontoon and an I/O.  We pull the I/O and put a second ski boat in when we don't have a ton of guests so we can pull more skiers.  Literally we need a ski boat that's not absurd to ski behind that can competently go down 1.5-2' chop with out soaking the seating and has speed control for lower speed activities.  Preferably with provisions to tarp and trailer.

JT has a good comment in the podcast not direct quote but to the effect of umps been there 50 years take your 43 the other direction.

11 hours ago, Killer said:

 

I don't think it would have made a difference in Nate's score for this event but from a safety perspective this should be a permanent change in the homologation of events, world wide.

 

That's the question really, personally I think the correct solution is a redesign of the skirt and backside of the jump ramp ignore Nate and 43 off for this argument how many brand new skiers have absolutely no clue where they are on a lake.  A rounded off edge on the ramp would 100% change the risk.  Round off that corner and have it curved and the risk of injury changes drastically.

In the same event minutes apart we have 2 skiers rounding 1 and S turning and you can see very clearly that despite S turning FW didn't come anywhere near that corner of the ramp.  It is impressive just how far down the course NS got.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cxng6HAOlC3/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

But can everyone recognize that a great way to get drowned at a ski lake is trying to manhandle a jump in sketchy conditions on a time crunch?  Moving a jump is not easy it is extremely heavy and well secured, it needs to be level and properly installed and unwieldy they are not commonly moved through out the year multiple times and what is being asked for is somewhat silly.  I mean I think the open bow malibu lawsuit makes a lot of sense compared to this.  No one is trying to install ski jumps on public water with ski courses for the public to run through.  This is a controlled sporting environment with athletes who pay to participate on a private facility. 

Safety curtain wrapping around the back? Sure - adding another ball to lakes that have a ski jump and changing the rules about a full ball score?  Sure easy.  Moving jump ramps repeatedly throughout the year so that skiers can be extremely late and score the point?

Don't get lured into thinking its just one problem sometimes several.

No chance a low pressure fuel pump is causing your gauges to go out.

One thing I'd be checking on first is simply output voltage on your alternator, takes juice to run the dash, fuel, and ignition and sometimes low voltage creates a "brown out" situation where there simply isn't appropriate voltage to keep everything going usually eventually causes a no start but not always.

@mbabiash the argument would be that if he could have put his ski out where the side skirt is that he might have made the boat guide.  An extreme example for sure.

If you take the many 3 event sites that have overlapping slalom and jump courses they probably are all following the published T/C handbook in terms of survey data for the position of the jump and jump course.

So you're probably going to be saying that to pull slalom at a certain level the jump must be pulled but that's going to make quite a few single lake sites with jump ramps and slalom courses have to pull their jumps.  I can just see how many of the European sites wouldn't be in compliance due to the ramps being surveyed in similarly.  Could be wrong but I cannot imagine that thing isn't surveyed into spec I just think Nate sent it way further down course than would typically be expected and you're now stuck debating if there was a chance at all that he was going to make the guide or if he was just missing it anyway.

On a side note that corner of the skirt should probably just get rounded off?

2 hours ago, vtmecheng said:

On a related side note, I couldn't help but notice that Corey is sponsored by S-Lines but uses a Masterline handle. In most other sports, using a competitor's product on the world stage is a big fopaux for a sponsored athlete.

Few things to consider, S-Line's is also now the distributorship for KD Skis in the US.  So using those skis and that rope company is it really wrong to like masterline handles?  Might his ski school still use the S-Line product or might he just like the ski or might the ski come along with a rope sponsorship deal?

Famous examples would be CP riding skis "painted" like his sponsors skis despite clearly no being those skis.

But ya not great showing if your product fails even if the skier isn't your under your banner.  I can see how one could easily have a sponsorship by KD-Skis and S-Lines Ropes and still use a Masterline handle, we see countless skiers ride Goodes using Reflex or Radars while riding reflex bindings.  Seems like invented drama.

I've always hated the athletes who are clearly not enjoying their redbull.

52 minutes ago, ScottScott said:

You can tell in the 3rd frame of obrienslalom's post above that the jump is well up course of where a backward turn ball should be. 

When surveyed in the FACE of the jump ramp is where the turn ball would be.  The ramps are bigger than you think when you factor the front of the ramp surface extending under water and the skirts extending behind they take up a significant chunk of water.  And there is surely a safety issue with that.  The prosthetic "Flex Foot" that is now so common came from a waterskier who smacked a row boat.  That's a real issue in the sport.  Nate could have lost a leg from hitting the skirt and maybe the jump ramp should be moved or they should disallow combined slalom jump ramp lakes - but then again.... how many of the top ski lakes use the same surveying data to position jump courses and slalom courses together (all of them) So if what you are saying is that overlapping 3 event sites should pull the course to slalom that could be implemented if you mean it.  But how many lakes would have to stop pulling jump to avoid this issue?

I assume there was a TC and it was surveyed in the TC handbook spec

**simply move a jump ramp**

8 hours ago, swbca said:

My question was . . . at 43 off Nate was held inside the line of skier buoys by the rope.  How could the ramp be in his way ?  Unless it was inside the line of skier buoys.

it's in the way but it's basically where a backwards course turn ball would be so if you are close to hitting the ramp you're so far down.

the reference is in the TC handbook but when installed as an integrated course the jump course shares a few bouys with the slalom course and that dictates where the ramp sits so it would be in the same place on lake 1 at bennetts as well.

this is also what caught out Jim Michaels in bouygate as the two courses were surveyed into each other in line but when one moves compared to another line of bouys....

18 hours ago, B_S said:

I guess Nate didn't want to go last? That 41 was pretty much as good as it gets.

I think he has that Wipeout from the MC pro in mind.

You could always have something manufactured and welded up.  its a section of stainless tube, 2 pieces of steel plate and a dimension.  Trace out the holes in the hull and get a plate cut, measure the bearing size and order tube, then you just need to cut a bit of cardboard and cut out the filler and weld it up.

Two sides to every coin right?

As much as some people like driving I know several people (myself included) who often don't get to ski the course because our drivers find it stressful.  My wife for instance has bad eyesight, she has difficulty picking up on the course far enough out to get centered up and that stresses her out too much to find it enjoyable. This could be a game changer.  Even if it just tried to do a straight path from 55 to 55 that would generally get her on track confidently so she wasn't so nervous about it.  I could probably ski 2-3 more times a week if this tech was on my boat.  Maybe even more.  There are so many other people around me that can pull people behind a boat but I wouldn't have drive the course right now.  That's your target audience not people who pull L/R and have drivers rating they don't need it.

Ya that part of the video not very impressive.  But on the flip side if its that or your wife won't drive you in the course.... I'd take it.

@Aoife wonder which of the pros who aren't on reflex skis/team have any sort of deal on the boots I'd assume if the skier isn't tagging reflex on their instagram and is using their boots that either they had to buy their binding or they get them from their other sponsor like a performance ski, wakehouse, or even D3/Goode both of which resell Reflex products.

The old ones had a buzzer not 100% sure on your vintage.

I hear the buzzer when I shut the boat off right after dropping a skier, then restart it quickly the heat soak will bring the temps high enough to trigger the buzzer.  I don't get that if I idle for a bit before killing the engine or wait a few minutes before restarting so you might be able to figure it out.  You could also pull the temp sender get a cup of boiling water and see what the boat has for an alert/alarm.

It might just be that waterskiing is generally speaking so safe compared to downhill skiing that trying to draw conclusions on safety is tough.  I'm certain if you took a single day at a ski resort like vail and cranked everyone's releases on their skis down solid you'd be seeing a line of ambulances from the mountain to the ER but there are plenty of people who have successfully used non-releasing bindings for years, and then there are those people who use non-releasing bindings and have injuries.

Joel Howley for example non-releasing fractured foot, this weekend you saw Nick Adams in from AUS he's on two fixed boot FMs, those are bolted to the plate with no release at all and he's been on that set up most of his career I believe, haven't heard of him having an injury doing it.

  Matteo Luzzeri releasing front with an FM EVO interesting system because the cuffs come off the boot no rotational release built in but lets you run a pretty supportive hardshell system that has a release but popped out of the front this summer and had to be cut out of the rubber rear - would have thought that is pretty safe lots of skiers on something like that who seem to do OK with it.

Then I think potentially the scariest type of set up would be the double reflex because to me very easily one of them could release and not the other, I've always thought if the double reflex had some sort of cable that would link the releases or maybe that the front release latched the rear boot that it'd be better but then we saw that they can release with Pigozzi just last weekend.

Summary I think is that it is unclear when an injury is going to happen and there may be a false sense of safety coming from the systems we use.  I've had a fractured femur not coming out of a simple rubber binding and I've had a fractured rib unintentionally releasing a hardshell.

MOB I think is the closest to a "safety" binding.  If a company were to come out with a Vapor shell with molded in toe and heel ledges for the MOB style release units and the ski companies were to install some extra inserts in the forebody and tail of the ski I think that is basically the closest to a "universal" DIN type system that we have with the least margin for accidental releases.

Double releasing hardshells your options if you want to be able to buy a new system today from someone and have it show up at your door.

FM Quattro's

FM EVO's

MOB System

Dual Reflex

Goode Powershell

Of those only the MOB has a toe release and of those only the Reflex and the FM Evo's require no fooling around with inserts or any sort of velcro or tape.

25 minutes ago, dave2ball said:

@BraceMaker I get what you are saying. I believe that would be a scoring nightmare to try to keep tract of.  

Could be.  But then again you really only have to hold the skiers accountable during the finals.  I don't think anyone things the lowest seeded skiers are going to show up and go well if I have 14 passes I'm going to ski 15-39 in 2 rounds to get the most skiing they're still going to ski a 32 opener and get to 38/39 and its no different than it is now but for the top guys the people with a chance at being in the finals who are expecting a score at 41 every round those people need to start budgeting and to that point anyone who's holding back for a crack at a 43 off score in the finals is really needing to hold onto a pass in reserve for it.

Because if coming into the finals you haven't held onto that pass you'd have the risk of a 6/41 no continuation if you didn't have it in the bank (Edit - Maybe you could still for the purposes of Class R allow people to run that 43 pass for world records but not for score in the event because I do still give Nate a thumbs up for coming back at 43 behind not his sponsor's boat bravo)

@dave2ballWhat if instead of capping the round you cap the event?  Its not 4 passes a round its 2 rounds of qualifiers and then the finals and you have 13/14/15 passes allowed.  So if you're going into the finals you have to at some point conserve your efforts.  You're allowed that 32 but you might need to use an opt up but its on your to decide how to conserve the passes to have whatever you want in the finals.

Its just people who have no clue what something is, surprisingly common with adaptive equipment people don't realize how much of this stuff is serialized and identifiable.  So they steal it and then pitch it when they start trying to sell it.

@Broussard that was directed at @tjs1295 to see someone running 39 from shore is cool but to see someone from the boat is a real event.  First big jump I ever saw from the boat was one of your coaching staff down there.  I get it's not realistic but he's a fan of the sport it is definately something people should get chase down and you're right the only way is going to be to go somewhere like bennetts or JT or swiss and take sets and see if you can ride along.

Man you need to ride in a boat with someone doing 39 off and someone jumping real distance it's impressive.

5 minutes ago, DW said:

@lpskier Sad to say, when I tuned in to the TWBC MC pro event the little icon showed 480 viewers (I can only hope that was wrong). 

Its probably inflated, I had up to 3 devices streaming it upstairs TV, workshop TV, and then I use an old cell phone to stream stuff on WIFI onto my Bluetooth when I do yardwork.  I also watched some from my cell phone while at the store so 4 different MAC addresses over the event. But I'm not going to sit in my living room for 8 hours watching skiing.  I did have it up and running and listened to a bunch of it and then if something happened you hit rewind and watch it. But that means at times you should divide that number by 2 or 3 because I would imagine most of us did something similar.

But then again some people might have been at a ski lake and had one TV streaming and 20 people watching. So its hard to get the total number.  TWBC probably has an idea how many unique viewers 

Waterski needs a captive audience it needs to host events at sites that hold people the old Malibu open Veteran's park is a great example -  been to their beer fest in that same park.  They regularly sell it out at 5000 tickets. That's 5000 people milling about in the same park get the event back and then coordinate to have the event through the beer fest and do social media to reach those people.

Ski lakes are often also large fields with lots of parking things you could host there music festivals or events, car shows, motorcycle shows.  What could the venues be used for to get people there.  Imagine a large food truck event our local park district has those on thursday nights with usually 8-10 foot trucks and about 1000 people attend over the course of a few hours.  If your lake is near enough to a population center can you use those food trucks and their media to draw people in If you're ski lake is in an area with great gravel roads or trails can you host a tough mudder event and have people start/finish at the lake with a ski event going on. 

Venn diagram skiers, mountain bike enthusiasts, 5K runners, IPA drinkers, foot truck frequenters, classic car enthusiasts.

If you were doing social media and wanted to explode the exposure in terms of people who atleast watch a summary reel or check into it you have to not just be looking at the people who are already willing to go or watching TWBC you have to make reasons for people who normally wouldn't to check in on it.

@MegaVega first things first you never ski a course before you do atleast one pass through it.  Particularly a portable you want to eyeball it that the course is straight and even if it is you always idle through it, stand up wear polarized glasses clip your lanyard on or get a buddy to stand and idle the whole length make sure the booms aren't broken, the course is intact and nothing is in the way on public water this includes logs.  If you've ever skied a course on public water you'll find things including intentional sabotage as well as just logs and debris that hang up on the course.  You don't want to hit that with the boat and you most certainly don't want to hit that with your skier.  

The cables mainline and boom should always be attached with breakaways this means zip ties or plastic clips at the balls and elastic cordage.  If you've ever wrapped a rope at speed you should be aware that it will stall your boat out but it shouldn't stop the boat.  Never seen it not sure if that could happen IMO nothing is that well anchored to stop the boat that hard.

And in several of the facebook posts a person familiar with the scenario has indicated driver error slamming the boat into reverse.  

On 9/8/2023 at 11:38 AM, markn said:

To make a skiing analogy....if I missed 38% of my opening passes over 5 plus years, I think I would seek a different approach.

I'm not sure that's a good analogy if you're missing 38% of your openers maybe pick an easier opener.  But where does it say administrative closures are bad?  Their website indicates the majority of administrative closures are due to the complainant not responding to the accusation.

It also indicates that in those cases the accused receives a letter of admonishment.  Would them sanctioning 100% of the accused make you feel better?

Sure reads as if the athletes would like a more effective system with more strength and more resources not less.