Back of the napkin thinking… about boats

[Horton]

Thinking out loud…. Back of the napkin thinking….

Someone told me that roughly 80% of all tournament boats are sold as promos.

10 – 15 years ago the boats cost a lot less, weighed a lot less, were physically smaller, had lower hp engines and believe it or not were great to ski behind. These boats are still as good to ski behind as any of the new boats.  

A common theory is that a current hp requirement for boats is because of jump. What percent of slalom skiers need a 300+ hp jump boat? Seriously?  

Boats are bigger so they are easier to resell….. by the promo guys? This line of thinking is really ½ baked but: what is the point of the boat companies selling boats at a deep discount to guys who need to resell them at the end of the year so the same guys can do it all again.  

There is nothing in the rules that says you need a current year boat to run a class C tournament. I believe the current rule is for boats tested within the last thee years. What if the rule was 10 years.

Currently the boat companies reimburse the promo guys about $100 per tournament pulled and provide the boats cheap enough so the promo guys can sell the boat at cost at the end of the year.  

The assumption is that if there was no promo program, there would be no tournament boats. Who in their right mind would allow their personal boat to be used for a tournament?

Paradigm shift: what if we added $10 to each tournament ride and gave the cash to the boat owner. 100 rides @ $10 each would be $1000 to the boat owner. Suddenly the promo program is not the best game in town. The owner of a 5 or 10 year old suddenly wants his boat to be used in a tournament. OOoooo yea suddenly we can compete behind boats that we train behind.

Just thinking out load....

[eleeski]

It is our duty as active skiers to provide input to the manufacturers. I agree that smaller, lighter and less expensive boats are really needed in the market right now. Use whatever market contacts we have to advance this agenda.

I agree that the best old boats were great for skiing behind. And some of the "advancements" have been substantially worse than the old boats they replaced. I agree that I don't need a bunch of fancy (and heavy) upholstered seats. And I can throw in some weights for balance about as easily as switching the ballast tank pump (and I have a use for all those dead batteries). Some of the "new and improved" boats have been downright horrible (the old disaster craft and the current Nautique for tricks). 

But some of the advancements have been great. Perfect Pass was the best thing to ever happen to waterskiing as unskilled drivers were able to give acceptable practice conditions. ZO made the DBW boats work with an autothrottle and makes the unskilled drivers always get perfect times regardless of wind, magnets or any other variable (you will learn to like it eventually). However bad the current Nautique is for tricks, it is really good for slalom (especially with ZO).

We need consistency as much as the best possible pull. Our sport is a three event sport so a truly useful boat needs to be able to pull jump and tricks as well. Paying Kirk to bring his old 79 American Skier to tournaments might improve our scores at a local tournament but it is not a good thing for the sport - or our scores when we get to Nationals or Big Dawg. The three year rule (and exemptions have been granted) seems reasonable.

John, pony up the cash and get a modern boat! Do the promo thing to make the new boat a bit more affordable. Boat companies might even be able to sponsor some tournaments again!

Eric

[ForrestGump]

Now that's an interesting idea, John. Although I think $10 per tournament set might be a bit excessive. $5 and the gas would be more like it. Require 3 year and newer. You'd have people falling all over themselves to provide boats.

[mike55]

Frickin 'A' Horton after a a bottle of Big Sky Moose Drool I happen to check out the "Spray" and lo and behold an article that is more than back of the napkin. This is timely and your idea should be implemented. Now I may be partial to teamwalleys 97 Nautique Masters Edition with PP dialed in (310 HP GT40) and or Eddie's dads boat, an MB 190 Boss ugly as sin with the same motor, but WTF. I could drive a tournament of class 'C' bitches and nary a bitch with either one of those and the owner could justify it. A promo boat feeds the ego and the mfg nothing else imo with this economy. In a perfect world and economy where you can spin out of a promo without loosing your arse it makes sense. Someday again fine, but lets deal with the present.

[Horton]

Shane,

I spend $10 on RedBull for a tournament weekend. My Beer/margarita bill is many times that.

Forget the age of the boat. You, the organizer, pick the boat that everyone likes and make it worth the boat owners time ( plus wear & tear). Got a 87, 97 or 07 boat with PP that goes straight and puts out 16.95 or 16.08 all day long? Let’s use it. Since we are talking about someone’s personal (long term boat) it has to involve some cash.  

I would pay at least $10 extra to get a ride that is to the letter of the rule book (& intent) and does not suck. I would pay to compete behind a boat that feels like the boat I practice behind. Even without ZO, a lot of the new boats do not feel like what most of the membership skis behind.

[ForrestGump]

I guess my thought was that your plan adds $30 to the price of a 3 round tournament. Unless I'm misunderstanding.  Thats about a 40% increase.  A lot of the skiers in my area have families that ski. The husband, wife and 2 kids all enter. That's a $120 increase in the cost of a tournament and I don't think that'll go over too well.

[Horton]

Hmmm. You have a point. I never said my idea was totally flushed out.

Lets say the organizer would set the price or the maybe the boat owner. Point is what would you want in exchange to 16 hours on your boat?

[boarditup]

I have used the figure of $40-50 per hour to cover interest, depreciation, and general upkeep on a ski boat.  Obviously, this is a sliding target (first year depreciation, older boat upkeep, etc.).  I have typically lent out my boat for tournaments for the gas and a free pull can called it a day.

I think you are onto something.  The rules, I believe, were set up to sell boats on behalf of manufacturer/sponsors.  You are looking at a new paradigm where the support comes more from the skiers and depend less on the manufacturer.  I think there may be some resistance unless there is a age limit or a sliding scale to encourage the purchase of newer boats.  If the big three do not sell enough boats, we will all suffer the loss.

The small, lightweight, and cheap boats do not sell.  Look at Gekko - exactly that description.  They went bankrupt, but now are back in production under Centurion.  It skis great, but it does not have the backing and reputation of the big three.

[ktm300]

I like the idea.  When almost everyone agrees that the boats, if maintained well, will go 2000 plus hours without issues, why the pressure to buy year after year a boat with a steep depreciation curve?  Also, it stops the ZO conspiracy which has as its sole motivation the selling of new boats.  PP needs to start the "PP Series" complete with a championship and some prize money.  Let all those cats that love and practice behind ZO ski tournaments behind PP.  It won't make any difference in your skiing performance.  Really.

[ForrestGump]

I do think there should be some sort of age range. I'm all for opening it up more than just the current 2 years(which is stupid), but I don't want to drive an hour to get somewhere where they've got a jalopie of a 92 Malibu with 2500 hours to ski behind. Say 5 years from current model. That'd include a LOT of boats and would give people the incentive to buy something new. 

[ScarletArrow]

using older model boats would seem to go against the grain of USAWS determined mission of getting into the olympics...where - as i understand it - the variables in boat performance is one of primary obstacles to getting approved as a sport

 

not that any skiers at the local level seem to care

[Old MS Accout]

Somthing has to give.  Minnesota has 14 tourneys with at least 3 rounds per.

There are 3 MC and 2 Malibu promos and no CC. The Malibus are 08s.

That is 60 rounds that need to be pulled this summer. There will be some sites that will have 1 boat pulling all day. No Promo guy will like that.      

[Horton]

Speaking of cheaper new boats. I see that the "cheap" boats of the past have not done well but what if MC,CC or the Boo put out a boat of the same quality of as the current boat but just smaller and with less HP? Raw materials in the hull are a big cost and when you drop some pounds you can go back to a 260 hp motor and that is also way cheaper.

I am not saying that this is THE ANSWER but at least you guys are thinking about it.

[eleeski]

Problem: the bigger boats have only a couple of hundred dollars in extra fiberglass. A marinized, catalyzed, fuel injected V6 is almost as complex (expensive) as the V8. And a smaller V8 is intrinsically no cheaper at all (same number of parts). For environmental and fuel economy reasons we are stuck with advanced fuel injected engines. The cheap old 260 HP carburated engines are gone.

Much of the costs in the big boats comes from the details. While I would prefer to ski behind a smaller boat, a small luxury boat will not help on a price basis. Stereos, seat heaters, massive upholstery and tricked out graphics cost a fortune. Do we really need that? (Does a black boat really look better? Do I need another padded bench on my starting dock because the back seat does not stay in my boats. A fancy tandem trailer just gives the methheads two extra wheels to steal.) Our current crop of ski boats is very luxury oriented. I do believe that there is significant potential to reduce costs - especially for a promo program. Lets ask the manufacturers.

I seriously worry about using out of date boats in all the local tournaments. Boats (and speed controls) are different. The tournament playing field needs to be level - even if it's a little more adverse than our optimal training boat.

I also worry about raising entry fees. Price is not a big factor for the M4 and M5 but it is huge for the M1 and M2 future of the sport.

Eric

[Horton]

Ok Eric,

Does anyone know what the weight is for a 99 MC?

Does anyone know what the hp is for a 99 MC?

Does anyone know what the weight is for a 09 MC?

Does anyone know what the hp is for a 09 MC?

Resin is not cheap. Chevy small block is cheap until you squeeze 340+ hp out of it.

Again not sure this is an answer but should raise some questions.

[boarditup]

Lots of issues with the price of the boats:

Raw materials
Skilled labor
Engine & tranny
Running gear
Electronics and guages
Engineering
QA/QC
Overhead
Profit (allows for continuing operations)

Whenever I see a tight market - where prices are not dramatically different between various high quality items and no more than a 25% difference between high quality and average quality - I know that only normal profits are being made.  Normal profit is the profit margin you can receive by investing an a large number of investments (typically 5-10% ROI).  Only when there is some restriction on entering and competing in the market is there a larger profit margin (patented drug, for example).  High profit margins always come down to normal in time.  We are in a very mature industry.  There will not be a significant drop in price anytime soon.  We, the market, will not support it.  We buy the boats with the luxuries and options and shun the bargain basement boats.  That is because the bargain basement boat buyer's market is typically the used boat market.  Nobody makes money on tightwads except Dave Ramsey seminars - and those people are in recovery.

 The question is how to grow the sport and inject more money into it so we all can benefit.  John's proposal is a great one.  I would be very curious, however, to find out the demographics of the typical tour team boat buyer.  I suspect it is the very occasional tournament skier who uses it more as a family boat than a course shredding machine.  That is why the manufacturers produce the boats they do - they sell.  The stripped down boat does not sell - and there are many struggling or deceased companies to prove it.

[Steven]

_{Our playing field used to be alot more level prior to being force fed Zero Off. IMO the difference between a '99 and '09 is un-noticable until you throw ZO into the mix. So no matter what, us poor individuals who can't afford a new boat will never be able to compete with some one who has a newer boat. The rule about being able to use an older boat is great and (I believe) helps to grow the sport. Promo's aren't always available!ÂÂ} 

[Horton]

Karl,

I am not sure what you mean by a "typical tour team boat buyer" but a large % of all high end ski boats go to the Promo team. So the factory and the dealers are not really getting what they should. In theory these boats  are used for a year at tournaments and then sold for the cost of the next boat. The promo guy gets a new boat every year for almost no cost.

[thager]

All for the smaller cheaper boat thing. Also have nothing against using older boats. CC hasn't significantly changed the hull of the 196 since 2002? Malibu in 4-5? MC since 2003? Should be able to use any of the manufacturers current hulls regardless of the speed controls. Advertise which speed control will be used for a tournament and get on with it. I for one wouldn't care if ZO never shows! If all else fails we could always have a tea party  and start a new organization. Isn't that the American way? Worked for the AFL didn't it?

[eleeski]

A 99 MC was about 2000 lbs. An 08 MC is about 2500 lbs.

I can buy resin in 1 gal increments for $30/gal. I'm sure it's cheaper in 55 gal drums. A gallon weighs about 8lbs. The 99 MC sold for about 20K. The 09 is about 50K. The extra $1500 (gross overestimate) in resin cost is not the prime factor in the price increase. The 99 had a seat and indoor outdoor carpet. The 09 has upholstered front seats, padded storage bays, padded sides and a whole bunch of other heavy luxurious features. Lots of labor and materials for all this luxury.

Not all the cheap boats died. I remember when Malibu was a cheap off brand boat. And the luxury boat was the American skier and it's gone now. The market will support inexpensive boats.

Provided some people do buy new boats, the ZO issue will be gone soon. You will be able to get enough practice time behind ZO to adjust.

The promo program gives a fairer pull than random boat selection. And at a lower cost to the skiers.

Get rich and buy a new boat - or someone's old promo.

Eric

[DaveD]

What ever happened to the low cost options from the big three.  I really like the Malibu Sportster.  I don't see much need for all the electronics and bling in the high end boats.  The electrical system is the first problem most boats have and the last thing I want to see on a bright sunny day is crome on the dash. 

 

[RichardDoane]

I aspire to be a Promo guy, and at the end of every year get someone to take over the payments, so I can get a new boat for the upcoming season.  The perfect design will be to order the new boat in whatever colors/options the next owner desires. So if anyone out there wants a good, well treated, one year old 2010 Malibu/CC/Mastercraft for delivery in October of 2010, let's get together and make up a plan.  I'll be glad to pass the savings on to the next guy, since it'll benefit my family and all my ski buddies.

[Boody]

I am not that much of a believer in the promo program.  I had two different friends buy a CC last year, one from a promo and one from a dealer.  This dealer was adament that he could match a new boat for the promo price and he was right, the dealer had a much better deal and the guy who bought the promo was pissed.

Also why is Malibu and MC so much more expensive than the CC?  CC in high 30s and the other two in the mid to upper 40s!  Doesn't make sense.  They need to be more realistic with their prices, especially in this economy. 

[DW]

Part 1:  The watersports boat industry has gone through the same phase as the American car company and now is in the same situation demand wise.  Cheap credit allowed any buyer to buy or lease a Cadillac on a Chevy budget, so, guess what, that is what credit card and lease addicted American customers did.  The boat companies, like the car companies responded gleefully by supplying optioned out boats on credit to all the willing consumers  so Jr. could "show off" his blinged out boat in a continual one upmanship to his neighbor.  Optioned out vehicles are the best way to make a profit and if that is where the business is, it would be foolish for a company not to take advantage of it (One just better be ready for the shift).  Take a spin through any average "newish" neighborhood in any US suburb.  What do you see, well 2500+ square foot homes with at least 2 loaded high end SUV's sitting in the driveway.  Back up 25 years and the average house was 1500 sq ft and the car was a Chevy or Ford "wagon" and there was at least one less garage stall.

 Part 2:  Looking over some data, a mid 90's Malibu response was 2400 lbs (Sportser at 2200 lbs), powered by a cast iron 350 small block.  Today's Response LXi is 2800 lbs and is powered by an aluminum LS small block, has grown in girth and is loaded with all the bling and options that average joe buyer wants and can "afford" on his lease or credit card.  The MC line appears to be the same, the new 197 at 2800 lbs (with the aluminum GM LS small block) is the basic replacement for the early 90's basic 190 with a cast iron V8 at 2350 lbs.  Aluminum is roughly a 3/1 weight advantage to cast iron.  The US consumer basically demanded all the options that added lots of weight to the line up of boats.  Common parts and manufacturing spilled all that stuff over to the tournament ski boat, which the design tended to have to meet the demand of the more average US consumer, not the hard core addicts of this forum, who don't really want all that added stuff.  It would be interesting to take a survey to see how many 3-5 year old transitioned promo boats pull any skiers on a short line or send more time pulling a tube?

Part 3:  Looks to me as though the industry has to go through a transition and revert back to a more basic and affordable business model.

[toothboy]

Bring back the MC Sport Star. The late 90s saw Midwest Master Craft selling lots of these boats. They were great basic ski boats with trailer for 20g. Their demise was that the ruined the used boat market. Who wanted to by a two year old boat when you could buy new, cheaper, with warranty.

 

My brother just bought a X-14 MC which lists for 68g. He is part of the 25g "rebate". You don't get your money back for three years, and if you submit your request during a one week window three years from now no money. I hear a lawyer shuffling papers in his office.

[Horton]

Are you sure about the rebate thing?

[D Wolters]

The MC Sport Star had an excellent hull w/o bells and whistles. No spray from the boat at short line and a small carbureted engine. It would pull 95's all day long w/o sucking the tank dry like most MC's do!

[toothboy]

Yes, the details are as such. 1. Boat show only 2. You have 10 days from the purchace of your boat to register by website and fill out paper work which needed to be mailed in. 3. Three years from date of purchase you must hit the one week window to claim your rebate. Boat was purchased at the Detroit boat show.

[ForrestGump]

Yeah, the MC Sportstar was an awesome little boat. The last of the affordable, real ski boats. 

I went back and looked through my files. I bought my first completely loaded Nautique in 1996, brand new for $23,500 with trailer, bimini, stereo, etc. Holy cow, that same boat is $45k now. In 09 Dollars, that 23,500 equals to $36 ish. Ok, I could deal with that for a loaded out 196. But $45?!?! And MC is even worse! $52k for a PS197?!?!

 

[GAJ0004]

I noticed the trend in the boats getting more fluff on them since the late 90's through the early 2000's. 10 or 20 years ago most people who bought a Master Craft, Malibu, or Nautique or similar boat bought them because they were serious skiers. Now I see people buying them as a status symbol. On my lake there are tons of inboard ski boats, which sit on the lift most of the time, or just pull kids on tubes on a Sunday afternoon. Being a hardcore slalom skier, barefooter, trick skier, and keeboarder I don't like the open bows or towers. Every dealer I talk to says they can't sell a closed bow boat, so they always order them with all the extras. I will ski on any boat that was AWSA approved at the time of its manufacture. Skiing the course behind a 2008 Master Craft, or my 1994 Ski Nautique with Stargazer all feels the same. If I were buying a new boat I would order the base model, pick my colors, pick the 350 HP engine, get the closed bow, get the regular single axle trailer(Master Craft for an MC, or Ram-Lin for a Nautique). I bet if you ordered a closed bow boat with the options for hard core skiing only you could probably keep the price down. I would get a teak platform. I am not sold on the fiberglass platform. I have never seen one after it has 1000 hours on it. The boat companies are trying to make more money. They cannot survive staying in our little niche market which is why they add all the fluff.

[roda]

 

I believe in the wake boats Axis is tied to Malibu in some way.  They are selling boats for quite a bit less than the big 3.

http://www.axiswake.com/

 Wonder if they have been asked to produce a ski model???

[skidawg]

Here is food for thought, I finally have a buyer for our 07 MC team promo boat (at a ridiculous low price) and there is no new promo's to purchase, a few overpriced 08's, and 2010's are being made in july (i.e. no boat till fall.  Do we A; sell and quit for the year. B; keep the boat another year and hope for another buyer in fall.  C; move to minnesota and take up ice fishing w/ MS

[Horton]

Ice Fishing

[skidawg]

Ok, but how do you keep your worms warm!!!

[ForrestGump]

You and MS can hold hands? ;)

[Old MS Accout]

I can drive my 08 down to you this week. We have lots on our lake if you want to take up ice fishing.