Coaches who also drive at the same time

[Thomas Wayne]

I'm in a discussion with Wade Williams over on the ProSkiCoach forum about which ski coaches drive while they coach and which ones have a separate driver so they can watch the skier directly.  That discussion can be found here:

http://www.proskicoach.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=5013#p5013

For whatever reason this topic has been separated from one that had other posters involved, and has become a discussion between just myself and Wade, but I'm very interested in knowing what other skiers think about this subject - so I'm raising it here.

It seems to me that when a ski coach also drives the boat he must absolutely be unable to give the best coaching possible, since his attention must obviously be divided between the two tasks.  For my money I am interested in finding a coach (or coaches) who prefers to have someone else drive the boat while they face rearward and watch me ski.  Wade seems to have taken the position that a coach who isn't driving at the same time he's coaching taking the easy way out, is "lazy", and isn't giving the skier the best coaching available.  I can't actually say I even comprehend that logic, but that seems to be what he's saying.

My position is that someone who's driving the boat can't possibly see everything I'm doing - in fact, he/she can't even see 25% of my skiing - and is therefore incapable of telling me anything beyond what he/she can't feel or sense from the drivers seat.  In other words, I think if your coach is also your driver you are either getting bad driving, bad coaching, or both.

i have further thoughts on the subject, but what I'd like to know is:

1) What do other guys think about this subject?

and

2) Which coaches are known to use boat driver - specifically in climes that are favorable during the winter months (Florida, Texas, etc.)?

TW

 

 

 

 

[thager]

TW,

 

If I had a choice I would chose having a coach watch with someone else driving. It's been a pretty hard thing to find since about 2001 or so but I have had both Drew Ross and Alan Hendrickson instruct with and without a driver. Seems to be an availability/economics thing but It's a toss up for me. I have been amazed at the subtle things these two have seen and sometimes felt while driving me. Visual input in my case hasn't been the only cue a coach has had to draw from as one can feel a lot from a skier when driving also. My .02 cents.

[Thomas Wayne]

If is actually is an availability/economics thing I would happily pay extra for a driver.  I agree that a knowledgeable coach can tell a lot even when driving for a skier, but I have a very hard time buying the idea that a coach who isn't watching you ski can provide better input than one who is watching.  That just makes no sense at all to me.

[This opinion also valued at .02]

TW

[Marco]

I agree that you will get better, more complete coaching from a coach facing backwards, but I do'nt believe that you will necessarily get "bad" coaching from a coach who is driving.  I have received good information from a driver/coach as well.  Given the choice, I would always choose the separate driver option.

If there are 2 or more of you going to get coached, you could probably provide your own driver if needed.

[bko]

After having spent more than 10.000 hours pulling waterskiers I see it the other way 'round: coaching as a driver impairs my driving abilities! Striving for the perfect pull in the slalom course I refrain from coaching; only if my skiers insist I try to give them clues.

But I am aware that some renowned coaches (e.g. Jack Travers) are driving & coaching simultaneously with good results.

bernhard

[Boody]

I agree with TW

Swiss Ski school always used a driver when I was there in May.

[Deke]

Seth Stisher has a separate driver.

[ScarletArrow]

Jodi Fisher does not have a driver.

I've gotten good advice from both...but if I have the option, I would prefer a driver.

As the customer, I would have more confidence in the advice being given and thus probably be more receptive and open to change.

[MattP]

SA I was down at Jodi's not long after you, (saw the guest book) , he drove and coached me and i got great advice from him, also he had some one else drive and he would take video and coach from the spotters seat. I would say that he is really good at doing both at once. but if i had a choice and it did not cost more i would have a driver

[Ed_Johnson]

I would like to take this one step farther. I have been coached by both methods and both have been effective. I now spend time coaching skiers switching from Traditional to West Coast, most of which feel intimidated to go to the top named coaches. I would prefer to be in the observers seat, however, that is not always possible. While large issues are easy to spot, I find the most effective way is to video tape every session. Afterwards, we can set down in front of a Big Screen TV, and in slow motion, review every pass, including the comments made from the boat. This is a totally effective tool for analyzing EVERY MOVE. I feel it really accelerates the learning process.

GOODE SKIING, ED

[eleeski]

Nick LeForestier sets the throttle, hops out of the driver seat and sits in the observers seat to pull release for tricks. And people give me a hard time for putting a loop in the release line so I can foot trigger the release.

I have a huge Rawly mirror and I can see quite well for tricks. For me there is very litle difference between driving or spotting when coaching tricks.

In slalom, the only thing that really matters is the portion behind the boat that is easily visible in the mirror. As a driver you get to feel this really well which is as important as the visual information. Quality coaching can happen from the driver's seat.

Eric

[swerveit]

I skied with Jodi and Tom Asher was his driver...

only ever saw him drive when Tom coached jump.,

[scoke]

 

Chet Raley has a driver 90% of the time. just have to make sure Wim or someone else is there.

 

[Sethski]

I am not sure if it is appropriate for me to weigh in on this, but as a coach, I can only assume that an opinion from the coach's perspective might be a nice addition to the thread.  I have always made sure I have a driver even though it costs me a little more.  If ever in the past I have coached without a driver, I have only charged for a ride or a discounted price and it has only been in pinch.  I know lots of schools who do it and I can only assume it is to save money.  However, the one other excuse might be that you can put the boat exactly where you want it when you are driving yourself.

 I know there are many people who claim they can do it well and many skiers who will say they have had good results with coaches who do this.  I don't want to throw anyone under the bus who works this way, but I will say this:

1)  There is no way to see EVERYTHING a skier is doing when you aren't sitting backwards

2)  I can make an educated gues as to what happened through the transition (when the driver/coach looks from mirror to "over the shoulder"), but I don't feel like an educated guess is what a skier is paying for.

3)  If you aren't seeing everything the skier is doing and you spout off about the rules of slalom and new cutting edge techniques you might as well (as a skier/student) be watching an instructional video.

4)  Driving can't be perfect while watching the mirror...it might feel good to the skier, but that is because the skier always gets the benefit of the doubt in this situation.

5)  In the late fall I let people know in advance if I don't have a driver and offer sets for almost $20 less than normal.  I don't pretend it is as good of a product I am offering, just an unavoidable fact in the slow season (and by slow season I am talking about December, January when I hardly have any skiers at all.

**  I can only assume I will create some coaching enemies with this post, but that is not my intent.  I am merely trying to convince even other coaches that it is not effective enough to warrant the cost of a the coaching...just my philosophy I guess.  Does your hckey coach run the zamboni? (not a great analogy, but at least kind of funny I think).

 

Thanks guys, and sorry to butt in.

 

Seth Stisher

 

[Sethski]

Oops, meant to say "sorry" to butt in.

[Bulldog]

Thanks for the honest comments.

[robscholl-OF]

Seth, thanks for your comments.  It is nice to hear from the other side.  Being a police officer, I always hear and read things from the perspective of people not working in law enforcement.  When I hear them and am able to tell them the other side of things, it is amazing how their perspective many times will change.  I appreciate your honest oppinion and know if I go to a ski school, yours will be top on my list.

OF