Lake Owners and College Skiing

[FA]

Questions for Site Owners/Club Leaders who host tournaments,

Do you allow camping onsite for a collge tournament(why or why not)?

Do you have college tournaments(why or why not)?

Does anyone have extra liability insurance for underage drinking, can it be obtained, and what are your thoughts on this topic in regards to college skiing? (ie. NCWSA needs to do a better job of policing it, there needs to be some rules in place for underage drinking, who cares it adds to the atmosphere.)

 

Thanks

 

[jdarwin]

FA - I own a lake but no jump so I can't hold collegiate tournaments.  That being said, if I could, I would.  On-site camping is not a big issue.  The underage drinking is but I'm not certain what liability you would incur unless you provided the alcohol.  Each state has different tort laws regarding "host liquor liability" and typically your General LIability policy would cover you in the event of an incident.  The important aspect is to meet with the host team to make certain that YOUR rules are followed and gain a sense of confidence that they will abide/enforce those rules.  If not, don't go there.  Most college teams are comprised of responsible individuals.  Certainly, a few have behavioral issues but for the most part, they are good kids.  I wouldn't let any unfounded reputations deter you from consideration.

[Horton]

What is have seen that works is: NO camping and NO alcohol on site. I would not to it any other way.

Let the kids tear up a hotel, that is not your problem.

[FA]

I come from the midwest specifically Ohio. The midwest would not have as large of a competing field if we used hotels instead of camping. I am not a lake owner, I am just trying to get rules in place for MCWSA so we do not lose sites due to a group of students behavior or lack of judgement. We are just trying to prevent a lawsuit or some sort of tragedy. Any information would be helpful.  Thanks so far.

[RichardDoane]

The WWU ski team uses a lake in Bellingham, WA called Borderline.  They are very helpful to the owners when it comes time for labor related projects, and the owner's appreciate their help in trade for skiing at the site.  When they hold college tournaments there is camping allowed, but no alcohol consumption.  The college kids have learned to have thier Saturday night party off site in a farmers field a couple miles away.  We go up for the tournaments to help as officials, and it's a good time for all.

[FA]

 Its funny in all our discussions "no alcohol" was never an option brought up. I just wonder how the skiers will feel about this.

 

[MattP]

If they want to drink just tell them it has to be off site

[jdarwin]

FA - I stated in my previous post:

The important aspect is to meet with the host team to make certain that YOUR rules are followed and gain a sense of confidence that they will abide/enforce those rules. 

If your rules require no alcohol on site, so be it.  With the new sanction requirements placed upon LOC's from USAWS, I would think the "no alcohol" statute would be even more critical.

[Horton]

I assume that most events go fine but I have seen and heard stories about the sites getting trashed by drunk kids.

Generally these are not the kids that are there to ski. These are the kids that are there to party.

[Thomas Wayne]

 

"Twas ever thus.

 I remember tournaments at Crescent Bar, WA in the 70's where the Goodman brothers (et al) partied late into the night and the next day the camping area near the shore was totally trashed with empties.  That was unacceptable behavior, and something that we would never have condoned or participated in.  We were too busy over at Clint and Jamima's tent... um, bathing in an herbal smoke bath (it was an old Indian tradition).

Kids will be kids.

TW

 

[Horton]

Yea I am talking about more damage then cans and bottles on the beach.

[jdarwin]

Thomas - what's ironic is that today's generation "joneses" for product from Columbia - it's just that there's is coffee!

[eleeski]

I have lifelong friends from my association with college skiers. It is totally worth the hassles.

 San Diego tournaments are either in the bay here or out at Imperial. The tournament party in San Diego is at a private house (poor sap). At Imperial they camp nearby on BLM land - so anything goes until the ranger shows up. I don't have a jump so my lake can't be used any more - but it was remote enough that I was comfortable with a party on site when we did have college tournaments there.

Yes, the drunk kid that ran over my pipeline was a pain - but I took everybody's car keys to prevent exactly that (he must have had a spare). I made sure we had responsible designated drivers if something happened. The party was fairly noisy but the neighbors (at the airport 3 miles away) didn't complain. Everybody was 18 so they were responsible for their own actions - including underage drinking. I did not supply any alcohol - but I might have consumed some... At College Nationals this year, some of the judges were the biggest consumers of alcohol. Every activity has its share of issues - college skiing is no different.

The tournament party is a highlight of the tournament and college skiing - discouraging it too much could really hurt the interest in collegiate skiing.

Eric

[jlittle]

Ahhh, Crescent Bar... the good ole days.  C. Knox could get it done on a slalom ski to be sure.  Some stories are ledgend around these parts.  I watched T. Goodman jump mid 140's at that site which was a good poke for the day.  We towed the boat down there, free skied on the main river some, a little tourney action and a little golf.  Oh yeah, and some of that other stuff TW is reefer-ing to.

[boarditup]

I am a home site for a college team.  I was also the site for a conference championships this year.  I will never again allow a college event at my site unless the NCWSA comes up with an enforceable NO ALCOHOL policy.  Although the neighbors are 1/2 mile away, I still had the county sheriff at my door at 2:55 am.  The neighbors also went to the township board meeting and complained.  I am still getting negative feedback two months later.  In Michigan, the property owner is responsible for conduct involving underage drinking on his property - so I could have been cited.  Of course, I was informed about this at 2:55 am.  My rules included:  1.  NO UNDERAGE DRINKING.  2.  All alcohol must be consumed under a Liquor Control Commission permit.  Both were violated.  Friday night was very low key and respectful.  Some drinking, but very well controlled.  Saturday night was a blow-out kegger.  At 4:00 am some were still drinking even after two were cited for Minor in Possession.  Thankfully, I knew the deputy so I was cut some slack, one time.

 My opinion is that hosting college events is not worth the risk to your reputation as a criminal record is hard to shake.  The potential of a civil suit can ruin you financially.  For me, I will not put myself or my family on the line for anyone's alcohol consumption.  By the way, no insurance policy covers illegal acts.  The AWSA policy will not cover underage drinking or injuries caused by drunken skiing or hangovers.

 I am still the host site for the college team, but I will not hold any college events until the NCWSA steps up and gets control of its members.  My perspective is the NCWSA is responsible for the culture I experienced by not tackling this life and death issue and turning a blind eye to it.  It is not acceptable to attempt to push the responsibility to the site owner.  The organizer is responsible for setting the limits of acceptable conduct.  Since the organizer is a combination of a group of college students and the NCWSA, you have to have a set of rules.  They have them for the conduct of the on-the-water tournament, now they have to step up and have a code of conduct for the entire tournament time.  At 2:55 am, what was I to do?  Throw them off site while still drunk?  Skiing while drunk?  Skiing while hung over?

My site stank of puke, had condoms in the street, and one of the skiers who fell climbed out of the lake in my back yard, unzipped her wetsuit to reveal PLEASE F*** ME! written across her cleavage.  The host team restored the site on Sunday - they were very embarrassed.  For the most part, they are a great group of kids who got in over their heads.  Why?  There is no support from the NCWSA for off-the-water conduct.  No rules, no enforcement.

I was asked to host another conference championship and turned it down.  Even if the camping is off-site, I still would have a reputation damage issue because they are there for the skiing.  This is sad because I have one of the very few multiple lake sites in the region.  It is time for the NCWSA to act before college skiing evaporates due to the lack of sites.

End of rant.  However, you asked. 

[eleeski]

Boarditup, I'm really sorry to hear about your problems with the college kids. I'm even sorrier to hear your reaction.

We live in a crowded world with plenty of rules. Rules which are written to keep the lowest common denominator safe (or the touchy neighbor asleep). College kids are learning limits. Hopefully they push those limits in things like engineering, biology, computers, etc so that progress can be made. Sometimes they will push limits in ways we don't like. We, as their college coaches, site providers and mentors, have a duty to educate them on the proper way to deal with limits. "My site stank of puke, had condoms in the street" was really encouraging - the barfing drunk kids have learned safe sex - maybe the best lesson they can learn from college. "I will never again allow a college event at my site" does nothing to help the kids.

Alcohol is the great modern scapegoat. Most people can drink without becoming a raving idiot. Even underage kids. Note that 18 was the legal drinking age when I was in college. I turned out OK (although some might disagree, the alcohol is not a factor). Usually the jerks are jerks drunk or sober. Anytime you have 100 plus people together there will be some bad behavior - regardless of the alcohol. NCWSA already has a reasonable alcohol policy. Other concerned people (Karl?) need to set AND enforce any additional alcohol policies. Don't pass off that responsibility - especially to the cops!

The idiot who broke my pipeline did some real damage to me. But I fixed it and next tournament we made sure that we had ALL the keys. Since then the same pipeline has broken several times from "natural" causes. Why is it so different when some jerk drunkenly does the damage vs something that just happens? Repair the damage (or neighbor relations) and get on with life.

I am trying to develop and sell one of my lake sites. Chances are that one of the kids who got drunk (underage?) there will end up as a buyer. Several of the kids have worked for me - and their work for me has been extremely valueable. Plus the lifelong friends I've made. There are risks with hosting college tournaments but there are real benefits too.

College skiing is one of the bright spots in waterskiing. The future of the sport is coming out of the college ranks. We should be encouraging that as much as possible. Don't take all the enthusiasm out of the tournaments with restrictive and redundant NCWSA rules.

Eric

[Horton]

The problem is multifaceted. In truth we need college skiing. The health of the sport depends on a lot of things and college skiing provides one of our sources of new blood.

 When I was at NLU (now known as ULM) we never went to a tournament without a faculty member supervising us. To me the key is that the kids must not see a ski weekend was a “no hold barred” hedonistic party. With an adult adviser acting as a governor the problem is not 100% solved but is greatly reduced.  

[boarditup]

If it were about skiing, I have no problems.  However, my rules were violated and the cops were called out by the neighbors, not me.  My rules were a simple restatment of the township, county, and state laws.  Responsible adults should not have a problem following the law - even if they are college students pushing the limits.  Under the law in Michigan, I am responsible and can suffer the consequences of their poor behavior.  My reaction, although regrettable, is not incomprehensible.  It is, however, very sad.  All they had to do is follow the laws.

The NCWSA has allowed a culture of exceeding the limits of the law.  That must change for college waterskiing to survive.  We must have younger skiers filling the ranks but not at the expense of my liberty or property.  For me, it is not worth the risk.

Here are some questions about the used condoms in the street:   Who is supposed to clean it up?  Do I really want to explain what it is to my 9-year old after the dog takes it home?

While I still support college skiing and will continue to be a home site for practice, I am turning my attention to high school skiing.  I think we need to start earlier.

Finally, if you are selling homesites, do your prospects really want a college kegger party as neighbors?  Will that atmosphere assist in sales?

[Mbskier]

It is funny to hear stories of the "old days" at Crescent Bar.  I was a kid and went to all the tournaments there.  I was too young to participate in the after hours party, but remember the larg turn outs and all the good skiing.  There is still alot of good skiing at CB, but no tournaments, maybe some day soon.

[lottawatta]

Karl,

Where was the conference leadership when all of this was going on.  I held the GLCC in 2008, and when there was an issue, I got the conference chairman out of bed and he took care of it to my satisfaction immediately.  Where was the host team leadership?  If they knew your rules ahead of time and didn't enforce them, they are partially to blame.  Sounds like you went to bed while the party was still going on, big no-no.  Regardless of the host teams' supposed embarassment, they knew exactly what goes on at the midwest collegiate tournaments.  It wasn't their first rodeo, sounds like they didn't prepare you for what goes on.  Karl, I sympathize with you.

To all:

I previously had a very long and detailed post on this subject, however my window must have timed out and I lost it.  I will try to condense my response a bit.

In the midwest, the skiing has become secondary and the party is now primary.  The University of Cincinnati hosted a tournament at my site this year.  It went very very well.  UC scoured the site for every bit of trash, they were helpful and respectful when setting up and tearing down before and after the event.  However, I remain very uneasy about the out of control party.  It seems that the party goes later and later and each school is trying to out do the previous school in party length and intensity.  Unfortunately, I will no longer allow onsite camping at my lake.  I simply can not afford to lose it all to some freshman's parents who choked on their own vomit in a tent at 4am with a bottle of maddog duct taped to their hand.  This year, I really tried to discourage the partying by turning music off at 1am, lights off at 2am, they were still raging strong at 3am, and even 4am.  I finally forced everyone to stop at 4:15.  There were still 30+ who continued the party after that. The party was primary for these people, the skiing secondary.

For the past couple of years I have asked that only registered skiers camp on site.  I even put in the regional guide and all my communications to the host team that only skiers were welcome onsite.  I have been hosting colliegate events since 1990.  More than half of all incidents are caused by non-skiing team members, friends, housemates, boyfriends, girlfriends, fraternity brothers, roommates, and alumni who only come for the party.  This year, again, saturday night, people started rolling in from the local schools and alumni.  Just to party saturday night.  The party is primary, the skiing secondary.

In years past, the host team has spent more time worrying about what they were going to do for the party theme, make sure there is plenty of alcohol arranged, design t-shirts, etc than they have helping set up the site or clean up.  The party is primary, the skiing secondary.

I watch more and more skiers come every year to fall around one ball (or fail to get up on a ski).  They drive a long distance to camp in the cold, brave the frigid waters, pay an entry fee, etc.  They come for the party, not for the skiing.  Each year there are fewer and fewer serious skiers.  Each year the skiers expect more and more.  Each year the skiers are less and less appreciative.  These skiers get up early, can't find their equipment, end up borrowing equipment, come to the dock, get in the cold water, get up on the third try, fall going through the gates and swim in, while their entire team is still asleep.  When I was in school, I partied as hard as anyone.  My team partied as hard as anyone.  However, I was always up before the tournament began boat judging, dock starting, announcing, scoring, rope handling and our entire team was up and out of their tents when anyone on our team skied.  For us, skiing was primary, the party secondary.

The powers that be know what goes on.  Things will not change until there is an unfortunate accident.  The accident will be alcohol related.  It won't happen at my place.  Not anymore.  The powers that be don't want things to change.  The sheer numbers of skiers who come just for the party accounts for more than 50% of the skiers.  Their entries, team fees, etc support the organization.  Keep these people away and you lose half your income and half your numbers.

Suggestions:

1.) Find an insurere to write event insurance for all onsite activities for the weekend (Good luck with this)

2.) The party and camping is for registered entrants only.  Give each skier a wristband when they register so we know who's who.

3.) Music off at midnight, final curfew at 2am. (not unreasonable)

4.) Each team posts a bond.  Any member of that team causes an incident, the bond is forfeited.

5.) Any incident of theft, destruction, or behavior that gives waterskiing a black eye, the tournament is over and scores are null and void.

6.) Any host team that doesn't live up to their end of the bargain with the lake owner is barred from conference, regional, or national cometition.

7.) Limits on the amount of alcohol brought onsite (good luck on this one)

8.)Security of some sort (sober host club members, lake owners, private security, rent as cops) at the rate of 1 per 50.

9.)No driving after dark. No one leaving period.

10.) Make skiing primary, the party secondary.

[lottawatta]

One clarification:  When I say this year's party was out of control I don't mean to say that it was a wild free for all that couldn't be controlled.  What I mean is that the skiers were individually unable to control themselves and many drank themselves into oblivion.  Individually, many were well beyond what anyone would consider responsible partying.  When you are too drunk to know where or who you are, when you have to be carried to a tent, when you pass out half in and half out of the water after puking, when you can't remember where your tent is, etc. Collectively, they behaved themselves much better than years past.  Thankfully, no arrests this year, no cop visits this year (breaking the long running annual tradition), no theft this year (my slalom ski was safely tucked inside the locked boat house), no destruction this year.  Again, U.C. did a great job.

It is my own worries over liability and what I percieve as a trend away from skiing, towards partying that are keeping me from allowing any more colliegate events. 

[boarditup]

Lottawatta:

 All good stuff.  I agree with your sentiment and where you are going with this.

I did go to bed.  I thought I had an agreement regarding the party - 11:00 pm for the music turned off, etc.  I was way to trusting, but this was my first college big event.  I did not understand the culture.  I had heard a lot, but no direct experience.  Now, I have a great education.

It is a fools errand to expect the college students to police themselves.  Nobody wants to be the cop.  That belongs to the adults..

[jdarwin]

Wow - I guess it's a little tamer in the South Central.  ULM and ULL have their fun but it's serious business on the water.  The other schools are mostly from Texas and are made up of pretty competitive skiers who take it seriously as well.  They have a good time but it is never out of control.  

[Old MS Accout]

I first met the Dawg, Horton, JD, Greenwood, Elee, Fitz and a few other clowns while drinking a few barleys after a hard day of skiing.

The stories I heard about some of the College tourneys were awesome. Cant repete any of it here without getting them in trouble.   

Now all of you guys wont let the next generation of skiers party and have fun. Your all old and dont want guys like Horton dating your daughter and hitting a 160 foot jump on the same night.

Times have changed. MADD and the likes have put the crimps on having fun as teenagers. The times they are a changen.           

[Horton]

We made as much trouble as we could but we had adults keeping us from going over the edge. Seems like the adults are missing these days.

[ForrestGump]

When I started driving for the Texas A&M team this year, the fact that there was no adult supervision was conspicuous. Don't get me wrong.....those kids were really organized and they all seemed like good kids.  But you send a group of 20 18-22 year olds together to another town/another state without supervision for more than about an hour and they're gonna be pushing the limits. 

[boarditup]

9-years old, 4-th grade, is a bit too young for that discussion.  Maybe in a year or two.  You have to be age appropriate.

The argument seems to be:  kill the underage drinking (or drunken behavior or legal age) and you kill the sport.  If that is the option and I have the only lake left in the US - the sport is dead.  I do not have the risk tolerance.  If the ski teams can act as responsible adults, sure, no problem.  However, the current culture around here is party oriented, not skiing oriented.  I host skiing events.  I do not host parties with alcohol for anyone, even myself.

[Horton]

In the long run we need College skiing for the good of the sport. Add supervision and we have a good thing. i think that someone who has something to lose (like a house) needs to be in charge of each team. If we stop the “free for all” I think we have a good thing. We do not need to stop the fun we just have to put up some fences.

I would guess that by now this thread has been seen by HQ and NCWSA. If any of you want to say anything else on the subject now is the time and Jeff S. if you want to chime in this is the time.

 

[eleeski]

I guess if you aren't terrified of alcohol, support the fun in skiing and believe kids need to learn about life before they get let loose, your posts get removed. Censorship of contrary opinions sucks and Jeff there is some support of the current NCWSA rules.

 Karl, it is NEVER too early to talk to your kids. Lecture early and often. Hopefully your kids will have learned enough to be the ones keeping the party in control instead of spiraling it into depravity.

Europe allows youth drinking when supervised by parents. Maybe we need to copy the Belarus model - at least to develop trickers.

Alcohol is a nutrient in tiny doses, a medicine in small doses, a drug in moderate doses and a poison in large doses.

Eric

I may be clueless but I do have an opinion.

[RichardDoane]

I don't think you're clueless Eric, you make allot of good points. Lake owners need to be aware of what's happening at their sites, and take the necessary steps to keep things under control. The emphasis on the "party" instead of the skiing needs to be corrected. The College tournaments are good fun, and just need more supervision.

[Dirt]

I believe all of the posts are valid. I can see each person's point of view and I respect them. I have been a drunken collegiate skier puking on the side of the ski site and I have been a lake owner, very uneasy about having collegiate ski tournaments at our site. I agree with Horton about the supervision being important, even if it was Dr. Harsch.

I see Eric's point of view about having some room to grow up. Some of the best memories of my life were those college tournaments. I remember the pain of telling the adult (Fritz) that I didn't need to worry about the curfew and paying the price a short time later when he had me up to jump at 7:00am in the fog. The crashes that followed had a lasting impact on my life. I had a new found respect for listening to my elders.

[JoeyMc]

I don't knowif Jeff posted here being its no longer here... Here's my two cents.By no means whatsoever do I want to discredit anyone'sconcerns because I believe they are all very valid concerns. I wouldalso like to draw some delineations. NCWSA is more a confederationof regions, so every region is different; drawing comparisons acrossthe country is not nessicarily accurate or productive.

 

 

As a skier who has seen my fair share of collegiate tournaments, Idon't think the trend is moving away from skiing by any meanswhatsoever.  I agree with Joe when he says that the SouthCentral is actually not tamer, but you just have to take care of eachother.  I also was in charge of a tournament where for once, werarely camped an entire weekend.  The saturday night party wasin fact out of control, but the next morning, the site looked exactlyhow we found it.  The only issue we had at all was the fact thatsomeone invited friends and they decided to try to drive back at 2:30in the morning.  My brother dove through the car window while Iwas arguing with them and stole their keys.  They slept in theircar that night.  We were also in the middle of a field with noone around at all.

I agree with MS.  And just to play the black hat, lets runthe other scenario.  A zero tolerance policy on alcohol whereany team drinking at your site is immediately subject to disciplinaryaction. The thing people do not realize is that at least 75% ofcurrent collegiate skiers have never competitively skied. On ourteam and through out most of the South Central (ULL and ULM excluded)that number is closer to 95%. Collegiate teams SURVIVE by invitingpeople in who may not be skiing focused, and teach them how to waterski.  Sometimes it pans out, other times it doesn't. You try toget a college student to drive across four states and not have fun. Skiing is important by all means, but its so damn difficult for abeginner to get good at it in a four year period, there has to besomething else to attract them and get them to stay. Its not thealcohol; its the camaraderie. I've met the best friends of my lifein collegiate skiing and some of those experiences involved alcohol(sometimes too much). The matter of adult supervision is alsoproblematic. Everyone there is an adult. And being from the SCR, itmeans we interact with the ULL and ULM sponsors. The joy aboutcollegiate skiing is that college students get to assemble their ownteams, and run them how they say fit. If they have a sponsor, itloses that student leadership aspect which means the most to me. I've learned more from being the captain of a ski team than I canever learn in an internship. Its as 30+ hour a week job. I shot myGPA to hell trying to get my team a place higher at nationals. Manytimes, I spent more time on the lake coaching and driving than I didin class. If it wasn't for collegiate skiing, I wouldn't love waterskiing as much as I do. Ask any collegiate skier, and they will tellyou a similar story. If you ask the ones with adult sponsor, itsmerely a means to ends in some cases, and it feels like it loses alittle bit of the magic. If you banned these memories no one wouldbe buying your used boats or used skis.  If you look at thecollegiate water skiing membership numbers, hell look at USA WaterSki numbers. We are keeping your membershp premiums down by bringingmembers to this sport. Collegiate skiing would only exist in schoolslike the UL's.  We only get to field 5 guys and 5 girls. Have you ever tried to run a team that only has 10 people on it? Howabout we try to pay (in some cases, ridiculously high) site rentalfees for the opportunity to ski limited sets?  Or how about youdrive across multiple states like the midwest?  Or buy a 25,000+boat?  Does this have to be alcohol related? Not necessarily,but its what College students do. And I realize this sounds likesome sort of cop-out, but lets be quite honest. Its no different thanit was 10, 20, or 30 years ago. If you have a better idea, pleaselet us know, but its not because the “powers to be†have somesort of agenda. We are elected by our members.

 

And to Horton's comment about it being a possible source for thefuture of water skiing. I actually completely disagree. Thegrassroots program and collegiate skiing are the only hope. However,collegiate skiing should not ride this high horse and not live up toits obligations to its officials and site owners. We need to meetyou guys in the middle somewhere. In order to do this, we need toset some ground rules for your specific site. Establish them. Letthe region leadership know. I would be happy to answer any directquestions.  However, I should also preface this that my opinions are solely my own, and don't represent those of the NCWSA or any particular region.  

Joey McNamara

 

[lottawatta]

I am not upset at all with anyone, any team, any leadership, etc.  As a matter of fact, I applaud them for taking an interest in what other site owners think. Somewhere around 8 years ago, under Jeff's leadership, the midwest seemed to have kicked the theft and destruction problems all of our sites were experiencing.  The explosive growth of the midwest is a curse as well as a blessing.  Great for the sport, but hard to control.  C.K. has continued in Jeff's shoes and continues to do a very good job of organizing and keeping the reigns in hand......a very difficult job with the ever changing leadership at each school and so many midwest schools to control.  If someone took my comments about the power that be as disparaging, I am sorry, the printed word often doesn't convey the inflection or tone intended.  I am quite sure the administration doesn't want ANY unfortunate incident to happen. I only wanted to point out that they know what goes on.  That is it.  The cost of implementing some of the suggestions I made will reduce the numbers.  They have a tough decision to make.  Jeff, if in fact you did post, I am sorry, I don't mean to say that you or CK or anyone else is condoning the problems, simply that the leadership is aware of the issues.  The fact that the USAWS insurance policy has been pared down to nothing, the litigious mindset of society, and my opinion that the skiing seems to be overshadowed by the party, has led me to the decision to have no more camping on site.  I didn't come here to complain or slam anyone.  I came here to respond to FA's request for opinions.

However, I still stand by my statement that the party is primary, skiing secondary.  Last year, one team came to the GLCC, just to party.  They traveled three hours and brought several car loads of students just to join in the party, but didn't want to pay any fees to ski.  For them, the skiing wasn't primary.  I fully realize these students are living the life and making the connections and relationships that they will carry on for many years.  I have many fond memories and many friends that I still keep in contact with some 16+ years after graduation.  Several of the members of my college ski team are members of the ski club at my lake.  Anyone who has been to my lake after dark knows after a few frosty malts I enjoy sitting around the fire with stories of my college ski team days. Far be it from me to discourage these kids from enjoying the college ski team experience.  However, the liability exposure from the night time activity is too much for me to ignore anymore.  It is my opinion that students are coming to college tournaments in more and more numbers, just because they know it is a place they can party with no worries and no supervision.  I just can no longer be the place they can party like that.  I have personally spoken with three other site owners who agree with me, however they either don't want to talk about it in the open, or aren't aware of this discussion. One has already disconnected himself from the colliegate skiing scene. One doesn't allow camping on site for all the reasons discussed here.  The third just prays nothing happens

As far as site owner's responsibility to set and enforce rules:  I simply do not have the manpower to control a crowd of 300 partiers all night long after I keep a site running all day.  Three years ago I hired private security to assist.  For the past two years, my family and a few club members (Like the person who started this discussion:FA) handled security.  My site is pretty unusual and there is a lot of ground to cover to keep an eye on everything.  I let the host ski teams make arrangements with the adjacent VFW hall to handle the main party.  This year was the first year since 1998 (when a good amount of theft and destruction took place) that the VFW was unhappy with the party.  They were very disappointed, I will just leave it at that.  I simply don't have the manpower to control a party that lasts for over 8 hours each night. When I do have an incident that isn't resolved to my satisfaction, or when the cops show up, I get the leadership out of bed, front and center, to deal with it alongside me.  In the past 6-8 years, the conference leadership delt with the problems and I defer to them for any penalties.  In recent history, all incidents concerning skiers have been minor.  Most of those incidents have delt with friends/roommates/etc. that "didn't know the rules" and were just there to party.

One last comment: 2008 was the very first year I made money at ANY of the previous 20+ college event I hosted. I had always charged the host team a nominal donation that covered my portable sanitation facilities and some incidentals.  The host team always kept the purse.  So anyone who wants to say I don't support the colliegate ranks doesn't know me.

[lottawatta]

One more point:  If someone feels there is not a problem let me just point out that midwest colliegate skiing lost one of the nicest venues in the midwest......after just one event......and at least partially due to the concerns I am addressing.   My site is a garbage dump compared to his.  While I have not been there, I have seen enough of SueDV's pics to know how nice it is!

[boarditup]

Just so everyone knows:  I did not charge a cent for the use of my site.  The college team still has access to train at the site - at no cost.  They assist with the maintenance of the courses, the jump, towers, and jump.  I pay for all of the materials.  It takes about 3-4 work afternoons to get the site in shape and taken down every year.

Today was the planning meeting for the 2010 season.  Although I will have several events here, none will be college skiing with any kind of party.  We will have alcohol served under my site policy - a Liquor Control Commission permit with a licensed server.  Last year the pro event we held - the Global Invitational - went off without a hitch with over 900 people in attendance.  2010 will see two tournaments specifically designed to attract first time skiers.  We will hold this concurrently with a wakeboard tournament on Lake 2.  The goal is to attract the whole family.  Tearing a page from John Horton, I anticipate holding a WUSS round on August 7 - just for fun.  Any and all college students are welcome to come and ski.  I just will not tolerate a party on site, any underage drinking,  or anyone under the influence on the starting dock.

I believe we have to get kids skiing before college to grow the sport.  I want to start a high school ski club (s).  Parents can buy the boats, the students cannot.

[MattP]

A high school ski club would be an amazing thing! As a high schooler myself it is so hard to get my friends interested in the type skiing I do. They always have heard that my brother(who mostly wakeboards) and I ski(only), and they are like thats cool, then they see videos of me skiing and think it is amazing and I offer to take them out and teach them but I rarely get any takers. And the takers only want to wakeboard. I think it is because they are to intimidated or is skiing not cool? I just do not know. But I am off to College next year and hopefully I will be continuing my skiing on a team!

[eleeski]

NCWSA policy is well written - "underage drinking,  or anyone under the influence on the starting dock" are already strongly prohibited. Enforcement is the issue.

Prohibition was one of the greatest failures of American law. We should not head down this path again.

The response of some lake owners to inevitable problems may be as inappropriate as the behavior of some partygoers. Has there been a lawsuit against a lakeowner for a college party? Or A felony conviction? The fears seem to me to be overblown.

Karl, involving high schoolers is fantastic! Best of luck with that. High school, grassroots, junior development and college skiing are the only way to keep the sport alive. Allow your site for all the uses - including college skiing. If you are uncomfortable with the party, close the site when the skiing is done and send the kids elsewhere.

Eric

[boarditup]

Enforcement is key for underage drinking.  However, I cannot possibly police 300+ college students all night long and still support a tournament with buoys, magnets, jump water pumps, jump cameras, boat fuel, and a complete scorer's computer system the next morning.  That is what the LCC permit is all about - adult supervision that the college students were supposed to pay for (wait, the underage kids can't drink then).  That is my policy - LCC permit.  Period. The NCWSA policy has no detection method, responsible person, or threshold limit identified.  The policy is window dressing, has no teeth, and was completely ignored in my case.

Nothing is impossible for those who do not have to either perform or pay.

Everyone will risk anything for someone else.  When it is their butt on the line their thinking suddenly gets clearer.  Anyone who wants to buy my site out can do with it as they wish.

In Ottawa County, MI, there are several people in jail for hosting parties with underage drinking.  With two large colleges in the county, enforcement had to become stricter.  I will not be the first site owner cooling my heels in jail for the sake of a college party.

In my community - I am "Mr. Waterski."  If there is a party that attracts the wrong kind of attention connected with my site, my reputation suffers along with my ability to sell high-end lots.  With the high level of attention and the official displeasure from both the township board and the county sheriff, the college skiing community had their one warning.  Until there is a way to eliminate the risk, preferably with a policy from the NCWSA that is realistic,  I will not participate.

I believe (like a proud father) that I have the best skiing site around.  What is wrong with skiing? I am an enthusiast who has taught literally hundreds of people how to ski, wakeboard, surf, wakeskate, and barefoot over the years.  My commitment has boundaries - I will not sacrifice my family or their security.  Asking me to put that on the line is going too far.  Just come out and ski, board, have fun on the water and leave the booze back at your house.

[eleeski]

NCWSA has control over the skiing only. The appointed officials are responsible for what happens during the tournament. But I haven't seen problems during the day with college kids. The tournament is not the problem - it's the party.

Ironwood hosted College Nationals this year. Once the skiing ended, the site was closed to the kids. The enthusiastic cheering noise is really hard to complain about during the day when it doesn't interfere with sleeping - especially at a site with noisy boats operating all day normally. The party moved elsewhere and Ironwood had no liability or complaints.

This thread was a question on how to deal with college tournaments. The party and camping is a judgement call on whether it is appropriate on site. Everybody respects the choice not to allow the party and camping on site. That is a separate issue from hosting a tournament. Not allowing a college tournament because they might drink somewhere else seems overkill.

Eric

PS As a landlord to college kids, the host of the party will go to jail. But the host is the one who supplies the alcohol - not the landlord. I do understand Karl's issue because I personally do get blamed for the party as landlord by the neighbors. But jail is not an issue for a reasonable landlord.

[lottawatta]

Eric, I agree, the tournament is NOT the problem, the party is.  However, no one wants to use my lake for a tournament unless there is camping and a party.  When the tournaments only go to those sites willing to put up with it, the same tournaments, same host clubs, same teams make all the money.  The midwest has been very good with spreading the wealth around to the teams.  Any team wanting to host a tournament is pretty much guaranteed to get to host one every other year, if not every year.  When sites start drying up, the same teams and same lakes will get all the tournaments and the money will go to the same teams for boats, equipment, coaching, and recruitment.  Not very fair.  But I guess nothing about life, or skiing, is.

After long consideration I believe I have been looking at this the wrong way.  I now change my mind.  The problem is not the NCWSA's, nor is it their responsibility to regulate a party.  The problem is mine as a lake owner.  I had previously thought that the entire reason for this thread and the ongoing discussion on another site was to try to come to some sort of middle ground through discussions, suggestions, and guidelines so that the camping and party could continue, and the concerns of the lake owners addressed.  I was wrong.  Now that I have been set straight, I agree my comments are way out of line.

My personal solution to my problem is to end camping on site.  When approached to bid for next year's tournaments, I responded that I would continue to host, but no camping on site.  The ski clubs wanting to host tournaments went elsewhere.  The collegiate skiers  that have responded to my comments either in person or by e-mail, have all said that if camping was eliminated on site and they had to stay in a hotel, they likely would not attend.  By their own admission they were paying to enter the tournament primarily to camp and party. If there was no camping or party, they didn't want to pay just to ski. I was even told I am the one who is giving collegiate skiing the bad reputation, discouraging parents from considering ski team schools, and making it hard to get sponsors.  So I apologize.  THAT IS NOT MY INTENT. The camping on site and the evening party has been the main stated reason for the growth of the midwest......not the skiing, team development, and recruitment.  The mindset continues to be party first, skiing second.....bring the masses for the party, and hopefully they get hooked on skiing.  Best of luck, I hope it continues for your sake.

JH, feel free to delete all of my comments from this thread.  I meant no harm or disrespect to anyone or any team.  I was merely responding to the original post and throwing ideas out for consideration.

I'm done on this issue.

[boarditup]

It is the owner's responsibility to protect their interest and property.  Although I am a strong supporter of all skiing and boarding, I will protect my property and interest.  When the culture changes, my response to the culture will change.  It can come from the top or the bottom.  The top takes leadership, the bottom will take either a death of a person or the absence of sites.  I am a fan of leadership.

[ForrestGump]

This is just me, an outsider to the situation, who doesn't have a dog in the hunt.  If collegiate skiing is the future of our sport, then the NCWSA leadership(in every region) needs to lead. You can't put it on the site owners and say that if they don't allow this activity that the sport will suffer. Talk about passing the buck. They are only trying to protect their significant investments, their livelihoods, and their families. 

[eleeski]

Lottawatta, If your site is offered without camping and the colleges turned it down, you should have absolutely no remorse. The use of a site is a generous offer which is strong support of the sport. I'd be more upset by the kids' unkind responses. Those individuals will be gone (in at least 4 years) so don't give up forever. Offering a site without a party is reasonable leadership which sends a good message and will force some creative problem solving onto the kids. As a site owner, you are a leader and that is positive leadership.

My sites are remote. Neighbors are not a problem. There has been some physical damage to my property from the kids. The hosts have always taken care of the problems they create. But the methhead burglars or the weather have done much more damage to me. I'd rather have my sites used by people I know than ruined by random bad guys.

My liability risk is much smaller from a kid who has signed a liability release and does something stupid of his own making than from the hunter who trespasses, slips on the shore and shoots himself. Or the methhead who chops his foot off with a pick while digging to steal my wire. At least when the skiers are putting me at risk, the other risks are not there. Everything in life carries risks.

College skiing, while strong, does not appear as vibrant as it used to be. Only a few kids come out to our training days. Maybe it is too much party (or reputation). Maybe it is wakeboard half points (the worst rule ever written - but that's another thread). I hope it is not a response to hostility from the established skiers.

Eric

[GK]

I just read through this thread for the first time.  As an active supporter of collegiate waterskiing and the organizer of a number of collegiate tournaments over the past 10 years, I think that the lake owners expressing concerns have good reason to be worried.  They've worked their entire lives to build up to owning their own lake and no one should expect them to risk it all so that a few idiots can get obliterated on a Saturday night.

I worked with Lottawatta and UC to host the Bearcat Buoy Battle this fall and it went extremely well.  We were hoping to hold it again, but when we found out Lottawatta was no longer going to allow camping, we decided to move our bid to our home site, which is a two lake site, and put in a bid for conference.  The reason we didn't use our home site to begin with was that they too will not allow camping.  Without camping, we might as well utilize the two lake site as opposed to Lottawatta.  We're seriously considering utilizing downtown Cincinnati for hotels and let the party happen as it may in the downtown area.  Let's the bars worry about policing the underage drinking and partying.  It will be interesting to see if less skiers show up since they'll need to stay in hotels (assuming we win the bid).

Lottawatta is one of the best places in the midwest to host a collegiate tournament or any tournament for that matter and I have a feeling we'll be attempting to hold more collegiate events there in the future assuming we don't need a multiple lake site.