“New School� is dead?

[Horton]

With all due respect to Mr. Brown and Mr. Winter: the ideas that are now known as New School or West Coast are so generally misunderstood and miss applied that it is simply time to put them to in a hole and cover  with dirt. I am pretty confident that Mr. Brown and Mr. Winter never told any skier to squat as low as you can get though the wakes or contort your body into some yoga position at the ball.

How many times have I read here and on other web sites stuff like: “I ride this ski (or not) because I am a New School skier ”, “I am really working on New School position” or “I do am not interested in that idea because it is New School (or not)”.  Unfortunately, I generally read this from skiers who are nowhere near a level to grasp the error of what they are thinking.

Just STOP! Get over it. No one really skis “Old School” anymore.  What is old school? Look 90 degrees across the lake though the wakes, reach as much and as early as you can, stomp on your front foot  in pre-turn to SLOW  the ski down so you can turn as hard as possible, and so on. If no one really skis “Old School” why is the more evolved skiing “New School”. To be fair when Mr. Brown and Mr. Winter first hit the scene it was radical and new.

While I am on the subject, if you have a DVD made by a Hall of Fame skier  (16 National Titles and 5 World Titles), I am not going to insult one of the greatest of all time but no. Stop.  Just take that DVD and put it away.  I do not even want to talk about it.

Last thing: If you can get fresh Brown or Winter. Listen to every word. I am not slamming the original ideas. I am slamming all the missunderstandings.  

[9400]

I agree, that's why I ski "Southern Middle School"...... I would also like to thank Bruce Butterfield for unlocking what is really important in my very vacant but also overcrowded head.

[A_B]

No matter how you rotate and turn, the real battle that gets won or lost 6 times every pass is the war behind the boat. Every body type has advantages and disadvantages in this battle, whether you need to be opened or closed to the boat, bent knees squatting, or locked out, but agree that the elbows in and handle down to your center of gravity is the biggest key to winning. My cousin told me to keep the handle low about 32 years ago, no charge. As far as bending the knees, years of basketball and baseball pretty much have ruled that out at 51 years of age. Just get it done however I can.

[Andre]

"Just get it done..." 

No points for style in that sport.

I like that!

[Horton]

Mmmm no I am not sure I am with that. You have to get stacked. How you get stacked is the question. Doing it with with huge knee bend is just impossible unless you are TW

[Than_Bogan]

You wouldn't call what Jamie does "huge knee bend"?

While I agree that "new school" and "old school" are terms that may never have made much sense, and now even less so, I still think there are some pretty different styles that skiers tune toward.

The one I personally am most aware of is what Jamie calls "angulation," which I believe is a snow ski term.  My "understanding" (if you can call it that) of this is that you roll the ski onto edge with a bend at your ankle and by dropping your knees and/or hips "down" (toward the water and toward the inside of the turn).  If you ski that way, then hard-shells may almost be required -- a rubber boot will dampen much of that movement and your ski won't respond as desired.

I tried out hard-shells for an entire season a few years back and I had serious problem on them.  In retrospect, I believe this is because any movement of my foot muscles or ankle joint is an accident -- I am not using that mechanism to direct the ski.  Roughly speaking I am using my entire lower body as one to direct the ski.  Rubber boots give me the right level of control; hard-shells amplify movement that I am making for balance -- NOT to direct the ski.

So this disctinction matters, because it can determine what kind of equipment will work best for a given style.

Importantly: even if everything I've said about angulation above is totally wrong, I still believe there is potential value in "naming" styles so that you can figure out what applies to you and what doesn't.  I don't think you are disagreeing with that, but seemed worth pointing out.

[Horton]

My real point is that the terms have lost their meaning and a lot of skiers chase ideas that are misconceptions.

[Than_Bogan]

100% true.

I feared that from the first moment I read about New School, because the layman's interpretation seemed to be to sit down during the pull, which I had just spent the last 5 years STOPPING (and had picked up 5 full passes by doing so).

It's very easy to severely misintrepret without a knowledgeable coach.

[A_B]

Not sure about the stacking. Depends on the build of the skier. I have a 6'4"'ski partner that only gets his handle "in" by accident he is just butt strong and puts huge leverage on the line. Maybe that is farmstyle?

[Horton]

I have to say of you are not stacked - you are not in the game. Watch ANY pro skier.

[Old MS Accout]

Its all timing.

If you can run 28 off, you know how to ski. It is just a matter of when you do all the things (that you already know how to do) needed at the right time.

[Horton]

I moved the Boobie comments so we can talk about skiing.

[A_B]

 

No biggie, comments are cheap, pictures would have been tragic....http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif

[jimbrake]

While we are getting away from terms, can we please get the f away from "toe side" and "heel side"? What, do we need to try to fit in with wakeboarding to be cool or something? Is that how we got started on that? JHC - our feet point forward. I get the concept of toeside/heelside, but we have a unique stance for a "board riding sport". We are more akin to snow skiing than wakeboarding, surfing, or skateboarding. Can we not stay with "onside" and "offside"? Are we afraid to say "offside" because it may be too negative a term for our sensitive ski psyches? My offside is my best turn (by far), but I don't know what else to call it other than my offside. I think I'm going to go with "big toe side" and "little toe side". I like turning on my big toe side and not my little toe side. Rant over.

[Horton]

I use Toe Side and Heal Side because I think it is easier to understand. Could be wrong. Best thing we could do is kill all leftys. That would clear it up.

[A_B]

 

Innie and outie?  Instep (offside/toeside) and outside (onside/Heal side) of front foot?

 

[jimbrake]

I don't know about AB and Horton, but I have toes on both sides of my feet and my heels are on both sides, too. WTheck do your feet look like? Please attach photos.

We could kill the leftys, but that would suck 'cause me, one of my sons, and Chris Parrish are leftys.

[Horton]

You could make more kids

[jimbrake]

yeah. I better go practice.

[h2odawg79]

"Come on Guy's, -it's all ballbearings these days"... 

[Horton]

Now you prepare that Fetzer valve with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads.

[jipster43]

At his clinic in June, Marcus was very clear that west coast wasn't a style, but rather a technique that you could apply to your own skiing. Regardless, the cornerstones were being stacked over your ski, being countered with your shoulders and hips, and supple with your knees. It seemed Marcus was a little concerned about the misconceptions associated with the term "West Coast Style" as well.

 

He's the real deal when it comes to coaching though. It would be easy for one of these pros to just show up and go through the motions, but Marcus was 100% engaged. His movement analysis is incredibly honed. Nothing gets by him, and his remedies tended to be simple and easily digested. The combination of both Marcus and Jen makes their clinic an incredible value fo sho!

 

JP :)

[Thomas Wayne]

Sadly, Gregory McDonald died a couple of years ago - but Fletch lives on.

That said, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the terms onside and offside.  If you have a toe & heel fetish like Horton you can always consider that those terms could very easily be referring to the side you are leaning onto your toes (onside) and the side you are leaning off of your toes (offside).  As for the heel part of the fetish, JTH, you might have to be on your own with that one.

TW

[Chef23]

I have to admit the heel side/toe side always confused me.   I vote for onside/offside and I definitely need a refresher course.

[thager]

On a ski I have a front big toe on the right and a left big toe in back, so now both turns are toeside and explains why I suck at this game!!

[Ed_Johnson]

I really believe that a lot of people confuse West Coast or New School with this supper compressed, twisted type position. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is all about efficiency of movement. It pertains to Center of Mass in the direction of travel that gives you EFFICIENT acceleration. In other words, it is not lean against the boat that gives you acceleration, but lean in the direction of travel that gives you acceleration.  Also, it is not angle that gives you speed, but speed that gives you angle.

In Marcus's own words, he states the most efficient "New School" skier is Chris Parrish. Why, because he has no wasted movement. He uses counter rotation and COM Movement in the direction of travel. Being 6'5," inclination gives him the greatest leverage behind the boat. With a shorter person, such as Marcus, it is necessary to use angulation , with a lower center of gravity, to achieve his greatest leveraged position.

I hope this may help to clear up some misconceptions.

Best Regards,   ED

[skibug]

new school....old school....anyway you cut it, I am getting an "F"

[skidawg]

Toe v. Heel makes sense bc it is standard wo being l/r specific. "what, u been doin some stunt flyin or sumthin"

[Horton]

Ed,

I totally agree. The problem is all the confusion

[skidawg]

Off v. On makes one sound good one bad, my toeside is ridiculous while my heel side causes my more trouble typically! Makes sense to re name

[ScarletArrow]

Suddenly, I feel like singing...."Moon river!"

[Bud Man]

I have read this thread and offer a term I have not seen. I have always heard and used “offside†and “onside†and have thought nothing of it being negative, but I can imagine it is not at all self explanatory to someone new to the sport. Behold, I give you OPEN TURN and CLOSSED TURN. This of course refers to your lower half. When I teach someone new to the sport, I always have them compromise by having the upper closed to an open bottom and vise versa. I did not know any better and was well into the course before I knew, so I am left foot forward and left hand under. I have heard of people switching hands mid career. I think one of the LaPoints might have.

 

Also, someone asked me to look at their West Coast Slalom DVD and see what I thought. After watching, my impression was that some people that were used to the sport of surfing or skate boarding got on a slalom ski and used techniques that were already ingrained in their muscle memory and did well. They look like natural athletes and might do all things well. I don’t know that it would be the best way to teach someone that did not have the same background to start slalom skiing that way.

 I find it hard to agree that the following applies to water skiing; “Center of Mass in the direction of travel that gives you EFFICIENT acceleration. In other words, it is not lean against the boat that gives you acceleration, but lean in the direction of travel that gives you acceleration.  Also, it is not angle that gives you speed, but speed that gives you angle.â€Â 

All of that seems to apply to a gravity driven sports like down a mountain or down a wave. (Before I go any further, I am not any type of engineer and I have no education in that field.) Think about this: if you grab the other end of a rope for tub-of-war, would you lean into the rope or the direction you expected the pull to come from? I think you would lean away from it. If someone where tall, they would probably want to stay tall and lean away. If they were short, they may choose to squat and sit somewhat off set so as not to give way to the pulling force. Isn’t the boat something like tug-of-war? And as for speed angle and angle speed: if I am being pulled straight behind the boat and turn my ski at an angle, I should accelerate. So didn’t the angle give me speed? Also, if I am being pulled straight behind a boat and the boat speeds up, then I would speed up. That added speed would not give me angle.

 

My point is that after watching the DVD, I got the impression that a bunch of words were put together for the reason to market a concept. That is my uneducated opinion.

 

I think the sport is advancing and the equipment is advancing because people are sharing thought and ideas and helping each other and that is great.

 

And as far as the old tapes of ski coaching; I think they would still apply to the old skis make way back then. You know; “pull longâ€, “split radius turn†and all that. They sure don’t apply to the new fast effortless skis being made now.

 

I am in awe at how easily some people flow through to course like it is as simple as a walk in the park. Sure gives me something to shoot towards.

[Than_Bogan]

"In Marcus's own words, he states the most efficient "New School" skier is Chris Parrish."

In light of this quote, I must pick:

a) I never had even the remotest clue what New School was

b) The term "New School" is completely obsolete

c) all of the above

It's hard to imagine a skier who is more clearly "old school" than Chris Parrish.  If he is now the poster child for how to do new school, then I must conclude the two philosophies are now one.

(That's not a bad thing, btw, and in part was what I think Horton was getting at in starting this thread.)

[Horton]

CP is very efficient. His mass is always centered. He gets the most done with the least effort.

My point is  - I seen skiers trying what they "think" is New School and screwing themselves up.

[Than_Bogan]

I think I kinda like Open Turn and Closed Turn.  It only took me a second to figure out which was which.  (Closed better be off-side or else I actually didn't understand these terms and therefore I don't like them anymore!)

And those terms seem even more obvious on the pull.  One way is very much closed to the boat, and for some people they pull really well like that (my ski partner does; I sure as heck do not).  The other is obviously open to the boat.

[Than_Bogan]

(The following is not an argument; just a statement.)

Efficiency is a requirement, not a method.  If you tell someone "Be Efficient" you haven't told them anything they can act on.  The question is HOW to be efficient.

[Horton]

agreed

[Ed_Johnson]

How to Be Efficient ?????  This is precisely what WC or NS is all about..... It has to do with control of COM, "Center of Mass Movement."..... ie: When you learn, through handle control, to be pulled through COM, you eliminate being pulled through the arms, shoulders, and back. Thus the boat does the work for you, making you more EFFICIENT !!!

 When you learn not only to lean, but to lean in the direction of travel, you accelerate better, thus being more EFFICIENT !!!

Also, Speed not only generates Angle, but it generates Angle with LESS LOAD, thus being more EFFICIENT !!!

For me this form of skiing did away with Back Pain, by being pulled through the COM..... It did away with OTF's, by being more solid through the wakes,  leading with the COM and not the shoulders...I only hope some of the misconceptions concerning massive compression and angulation can be dispelled.

Best Regards,  ED

[Boody]

Well said Ed.  I just watched the Marcus Brown's show and he went into the physics of skiing, aka west coast.  There are a ton of misconceptions, due to a lot of things, inlcuding the DVD.  Interesting to hear him talk about it.  Its not a style, a style is what we all have and its all different.  Notice the top 10 skiers in the world have their own style?  Its physics.

[Stevie Boy]

Does it matter as long as you get the job done, everybody ski,s different, I know a guy who has the most appalling style and looks horrendous on the water, and gets away with it, but he score,s 4 to 5 @ 38 off on a regular basis, if you are 6 years old then I guess you could be schooled to ski a pacicfic style, can you really teach an old dog new tricks ?

[Ed_Johnson]

Stevie Boy,

Since you brought up the subject of Old Dogs, that is something I am highly qualified to comment on, since today is my 62nd Birthday.

While I agree there are lots of ways to skin the cat, an important consideration is longevity. Skiing efficiently is paramount if you want to keep skiing short lines at a ripe old age.

Two prime examples are:

(1) Getting pulled through the Center of Mass (COM) not only allows the boat to do the work for you but bypasses getting pulled through the arms, shoulders, and back. Thus eliminating back pain.

(2) Learning to lean in the direction of travel with your COM is very stable and virtually eliminates  OTF's.

I know just how valuable switching to WC or New School has been to allow me to keep skiing at a high level. I even sold my Goode Power Vest.

Best Regards,    ED

[Than_Bogan]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ED!

[Ed_Johnson]

Thankyou,

 Remember, any day on the Water is a good day !!!!!!

[Steven]

Happy Birthday Ed! What are you doing sitting by a computer? You should be skiing!

[skispray]

Have to say I completely agree with Ed.

When learning about "West Coast" technique, consider that the concepts used to teach it emphasize what is different between it and old school techniques.  The heart of the technique is having your upper body open to the boat and countering in the turns, allowing the most efficient stacked position attainable (with ski, feet, hips, and shoulders all aligned).  Think about how crazy some of the old techniques sound now that we are better educated in the physics of skiing (thanks to Marcus Brown and Terry Winter).  We needed the technical theory of "West Coast" to help us understand the physics of skiing and why all that stuff was wrong, even if we can ski efficiently without knowing a majority of the minor nuances they emphasize. 

As to the "speed generates angle, angle doesn't generate speed" quote: I believe the key concept that is emphasized by that statement is that carrying speed through the turn is the only way to ensure the ski will finish with the desired angle and the minimum amount of load.  That is the ultimate goal.  If you have angle but not speed, you have load, which is inefficient.  If you have speed and angle, you have a light line, which is what we desire.  Taken completely literal, and applied where it was not meant to be applied (from a standing position behind the boat), the quote makes little sense.  This tells me that the way West Coast slalom has been taught was to emphasize concepts in the hope of educating people and to change the way people understood the physics of skiing. 

Anyone who believes that West Coast technique doesn't work has overlooked an area of the course where almost everyone uses the concepts: the pull-out for their gates.  I don't know any course skiers running shortline anymore that don't open their shoulders and hips to the boat and lead with their hip in an outward direction on the pullout.  That is west coast.  If you do it, you have implicitly endorsed the technique.  To call it "dead" is to ignore the fact that it has influenced how almost all of us understand movement through the course.

I agree that it takes a lot of additional "homework" to really grasp the heart of what West Coast is.  And no, we aren't all thinking about step ahead or step behind counter rotation or angulation or whatever, but the mainstream way of understanding technique now relies on efficient movement of mass.  No matter where I've gone across the U.S., I notice the coaching almost always emphasizes being stacked and open through the wakes, ensuring the hips are not trailing the rest of the body, and countering through, and especially at the finish, of the turn, keeping shoulders level and open.  These are the primary tenets of "West Coast".  This is now the norm, and without the efforts of Marcus, Terry, and Mike, there would be a less understanding of this.  Their technique educated an entire generation of skiers.  The fact that their technique has been integrated into what is considered the "norm" in slalom technique doesn't imply that it is "dead", I'd say it implies that it has been successful.

 

P.S. I was going to post this on thewaterskiforum, but there is no link that I can find to sign up for that website.  When I go to "post", it says to enter my name and password, but there is no "sign up" or "register" option, what gives?

[skispray]

I want to add that I realize that one of the important components of west coast, "ensuring the hips are not trailing the rest of the body [through the wakes]" is not a new concept.  I believe that what West Coast thought added to this element was the idea that the best way to achieve this goal was to open the shoulders to the boat during the pull, which allows the "stacked" position with less effort than trying to simply force your hips higher.  Ultimately what West Coast has done is emphasize the easiest way for the body to acheive the desired position, even if that desired position is nothing new.

[Jody_Seal]

Here in the south we practice the get-r-done style! And do it with a big grin!!!!/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif

[jimbrake]

"Closed" has a negative conotation for me. I don't like to think of my offside as being closed. Closed sounds like rotation. Closed sounds like finishing a turn with too much load, which I won't be able to hang on to or I'll get pulled into a lousy inside, fast line into the next bouy. I'm going with "open side" and "openest side".

 

 

[Horton]

I am saying.... if all u leftys would switch we could go with 1/3/5 & 2/4/6.

[MrJones]

Why should we be the ones to switch? Other than you being a righty of course. (Full disclosure: I am a leftist only in skiing and am fully right wing otherwise)