Turn and Burn

[Horton]

I skied a Turn and Burn two weeks ago at Cottonwood. I am now a proponent of Turn and Burn.

Turn and Burn is faster. Skiing two rounds back to back has to be faster than two normal rides. I am not really sure why we can not do all 3 rounds this way.

 If Turn and Burn is a skier advantage is debatable. For a skier who is on the verge of running a pass, I think it is. I get deep 38 all the time so I do not care about a score of 3 or 4 but extra shots at all 6 balls is very appealing to me.  

I think it would be great if Turn and Burn became a standard practice. If Turn and Burn remains the exception and not the standard I am strongly against it. I am not really against Turn and Burn but I am against any disparity in rules and formats. Turn and Burn requires a bit of a paradigm shift but I think it is a interesting option.  

If nothing else, I think it is a very good thing for us to look at alternate event formats. I think Joe deserves credit for making us and the rules committee think about new ideas.

Some of Joe's Text

This rule currently prohibits the use of an alternative slalom protocol under the Class C format colloquially termed "turn and burn."

What is "turn and burn?"  In this protocol a slalom skier, upon completion of a round can signal to the boat that they would like to go directly into their FINAL round now; i.e. turn and burn (T&B).  As an example, a skier who usually skis deep into -38 falls early at -35.  They then choose to start immediately at -32 for their third round and to proceed quickly to their goal of 5 or 6 at -38 or beyond.
a. Disadvantage to the Skier: 
o FATIGUE.  It may be better to take some time to contemplate their mistake and try again -  refreshed.
o SCORING. It also pressures a skier, by his choice, to perform to his/her potential in other rounds posting a solid score as needed. As the T&B round is an independent round, if the skier fails to run their new first pass, it is scored as a fall on an opening pass and not at a higher actual line length they were allowed to choose.
 b.  Advantage to the Skier:  Highly focused and very cognizant of the mistake; knows the correction needed and is ready to go. 

Current Stipulations of T&B:

A. It is limited to the FINAL round of a multi-round slalom event.
B. Class C tournament only.
C. Unseeded tournament.
D. Tournament, upon sanctioning, is declared as a Turn and Burn (T&B).

What the protocol is NOT:
E. It is NOT a mulligan; it is an immediate progression to the final round

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ):

 1.  Isn't probable that skiers could be waiting hours in the affected round; thus skiing conditions could change for later skiers?  While it is possible it is also possible that weather, equipment problems including boats and even skier injuries could also delay the event and result in different conditions.  There are many examples from regional and national tournaments where conditions changed significantly during a division's event.  Initial results show that it adds about 30 mins to a round based on many factors in a conventional slalom tournament.

 2.  Doesn't the skier really have a competitive advantage if he goes again - immediately?  The skier would certainly have similar water which could be good or bad.  But fatigue is always a factor and the reason for the fall, etc. in the just completed round must be clear and immediately correctable or there is no point in making the same mistake twice.  This protocol gives the skier creative license over their water time; it gives them the opportunity to develop the best strategy for them to achieve their goal.  Keep in mind that the boat doesn't go slower - the rope isn't any longer - the course isn't any narrower for that final round.

 3.  I think that the skier's buoy count would be higher from this type of tournament.  Is there any data for this?  Preliminary data has shown that out of 198 pulls over two days, there were 4 personal bests (PB's) as a result of T&B (3 of them were juniors). It was only utilized if the skier did not ski up to their potential in the previous round. Also, if the skier does not run his initial pass after opting for T&B in the final round, his score will reflect his score as an opening pass.

 4.  What happens if everyone chooses this approach?  Generally, only about a third (33%) of the skiers choose this because of either the FATIGUE factor or other equivalent issues.

 5.  Won't some of the officials be on the towers for a long time?  In addition to accommodating skiing officials the Chief Judge and LOC need to plan the tower assignments with this in mind.  A slightly longer tour in the affected round may mean no assignment for the last round.  All officials will be briefed on the protocol before they volunteer; appointed Judges shall be briefed and in agreement to the terms of the tournament upon appiontment.

Advantages of the protocol:
 
1.  It allows the LOC to accommodate schedules – out of town skiers who have to travel home and juniors who have other commitments, as examples.
2. It allows the LOC the flexibility to accommodate more skiers thereby generating more revenue for both the LOC and the region.
3. It would be more attractive to skiers who cannot commit an entire day to an event.
4. Shortens the time of an event;  skiers do not "go down the line" with their final round.
5. Reduces fuel consumption – potentially by 33% - reduced cost to the LOC
6.    For smaller tournaments, it reduces the juggling of officials every few skiers.
7.    Makes the event more attractive to newer skiers and provide stimulus to our sport.

A future rules change could be along the following:

13.03 Additional Optional Tournament Formats (Note, there is no 13.03 currently; this would be new)
               (a).  In Class “C” and other unseeded tournaments and at the discretion of the LOC upon sanctioning, a skier may elect to begin his FINAL round of a multi-round slalom event  immediately upon the completion of his current round; i.e. "turn and burn."
 (b).  In this format Rule 13.01(d) does not apply.

[Mateo_Vargas]

Couple of questions for Joe:

1. When the skier begins the next round do they have the option of which end of the lake to begin?

2. Can the LOC plan the tournament and make it mandatory to use the T&B?  So for a 2 round tournament every skier only gets wet once.

[Chef23]

I skied turn and burn in my second to last tournament of the year and it definitely sped up the event. It was a three round slalom event and we did turn and burn in the final round so rounds 2 and 3 were back to back. It was a skier option and not mandatory. I thought it was pretty good. I didn't ski any better than my average but the conditions were crappy. My little guy didn't ski that well in his turn and burn round and wished he had opted to ski the regular three rounds. You do need to think about the judges and the drivers because they are in the boat or tower for a long time. I wouldn't want to have to turn and burn in a two round tournament I like the ability to get wet twice.

[ForrestGump]

Mateo, I can answer for Joe on this.

1. They have to begin from the starting dock end on their T&B round.

2. No, T&B cannot be mandatory. It is optional for the skier.  

[RichardDoane]

Shane - if it's a 3 round tournament, can a skier T&B their 2nd round right after their 1st ?   And then just wait for the 3rd round, or leave if they cannot stay ?

[lpskier]

I am not a fan of the T&B. I skied a T&B yesterday. I skied maybe 24/34 in the first round, waited for several hours to ski my second round while most skiers skied 2d and 3d rounds (the long wait being my biggest gripe). I found the long wait disconcerting.  I did not T&B, choosing to wait for the wind to settle down (not a bad wind, but wind none the less), waited about six skiers and skied my third round (my 38 off shorts were still wet, so I had to wear a different pair, with poor results predictably following). I left the ski site at dark and drove seven hours home. This is NOT a negative comment about the tournament. The site was fantastic, the people extremely friendly, the event very well run and hot coffee and  bar-b-q was included in the entry fee! Event-wise, it was as nice a tournament as I attended all year, and I would definitely go  back in a heartbeat. It is just how the chips fell using the T&B format. I skied three other T&B events this season with the same type of experience, either for me or my ski partners. Some folks were done early and left, other folks had to stick it out to the bitter end, sort of alone, because they didn't want to rush through the day. Some folks were all done early, but had to wait because their ride didn't T&B. All that being said, I would not take the T&B format into account one way or the other when choosing whether to go to a particular tournament.

[Than_Bogan]

I'm pretty neutral on this format -- assuming data continues to show little or no advantage in scores* -- but I disagree with Horton.  Or I think I do.  I think this needs to remain something that tournament providers can decide on, and thus whether or not it becomes standard would be up to the organizers.  There are some disadvantages to this approach, and some organizer/location combinations may prefer not to provide it.  I think it's fine to say it's an option for any multi-round tournament organizer, and that tournaments should publish in advance if they plan to use it.  Also, I think it should be allowed automatically if inclement weather is threatening -- to increase the chances of actually getting all the rounds in.

The one thing I don't want to see with this is people not hosting tournaments due to the (perceived?) increase in logistical complexity.

*I am still hopeful to get a hold of a big pile of T&B and non-T&B data and perform some analyses of my own.  I believe I can create some metrics that will be very convincing in terms of what advantages and disadvantages actually exist.  While intuition is always useful in determining things to measure, ultimately data rules.  I have already sent to jd what my requirements for that data would be, and have my fingers crossed it becomes available.

[ForrestGump]

RD, as it stands now, the way the blanket exception for 2010 is written, the skier cannot turn n burn their 2nd round immeadiately after the first. It can only be the 3rd round, immeadiately after the 2nd. 

[apodawil]

I believe T&B is not right because it is convenient for the skier. If a skier can not stay the whole tournament why did they sign up? why should i have to wait for you to ski two sets before i ski my own? A tournament should be fair for every person. Weather can change, different light conditions, Different boat drivers, different judges, ect...

 

We have all wetness the change of wind from the start of a event to the end. i believe this could be an advantage / disadvantage from skier to skier if the time in between there two rounds is different.

 

The change of light conditions from shadows to where the suns at could give a skier a advantage / disadvantage. And a person that knows the site will get move advantage then there already is.

 

Drivers... We all know that drives even now, some our better some our ok. If you have example (Just to name one) Will Bush driving for you in one round and another driver that something he has done you dont like (anything goes around the island to fast, pick you up to fast, in gauges ZO funny, pull soft, pull hard, Hugs one side more than the other) This could be a advantage / disadvantaged

 

Judges... We all no some people are more Russian than others and some judges look to pull gates more than others (i will not get into trick calling here). This is also an Advantage / disadvantage

 

Rule book that Im really going off of is

 

2.03 Schedule Changes

Changes in the schedule during the tournament shall be made only for weather, water

conditions, safety or a similar reason, and not for the convenience of any skier. A

majority of the Appointed Judges must approve the change, and all affected contestants

or their representatives shall be notified. Although schedule changes are discouraged,

the judges should not hesitate to make adjustments required for safety.

[Dirt]

I am a big fan of T&B even though I did not better my score. It allowed me to ski my last two rounds instead of getting one round in and T&B in the rental car for the airport. The way Joe Darwin does it, it Rocks! Some skiers opted not to T&B and waited for the wind to calm down. I heard it paid off for some of them.

[ForrestGump]

I can see where we wouldn't want anything convenient for the skier. :) I have skied 9 T&B tournaments this year. In those 9, in only 1 did I feel like I was waiting. But it was also the largest tournament of the year from a skier # perspective. 

[bmiller3536]

Apodawil,

All these advantages/disadvantages you described can be applied to a regular 3 round tournament as well. The beauty of the turn and burn is you do not have to turn and burn, if you want you can wait until the third round for a better driver, better boat, or better wind conditions you have that option. Your comment about some skiers having to wait for their rides since they did not turn and burn sounds more like a communication problem between the two skiers as opposed to a problem with the turn and burn format.

Who knows, The AWSA may look at the data and decide that the T&B format is not a good idea and decide to not allow it in the future, but at least people are trying different things to make this sport better and more skier friendly.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Who knows, The AWSA may look at the data and decide that the T&B format is not a good idea and decide to not allow it in the future, but at least people are trying different things to make this sport better and more skier friendly.

Just wanted to repeat that.  bmiller and I have disagreed on several topics here, but on this we strongly agree:  Big props to anybody TRYING to make this a better sport.

[jdarwin]

I have to disagree w/ John on one point – it should not be mandatory.  It should be an option for the LOC and be part of the sanctioning process for Class “C†and under events.  It’s funny how most view this as an advantage / convenience for the skier.  I drew up T&B to benefit the LOC.  It speeds up an event (allows more skiers to participate), allows some skiers to hit the road earlier and consumes less fuel.  Overall, the LOC makes more money from entries and spends less money on fuel.  A win-win.  My September tournament had 36 skiers on Saturday and 34 on Sunday.  With approx. 12 hours of daylight, I would not have enough time for 108 rides on Saturday so we started the tournament on Friday afternoon.  The 102 rides on Sunday would not have happened without the T&B option. 

I agree that T&B is not for everyone or for every site.  Logistically, it takes some planning on the part of the tournament organizer.  But if planned correctly and communicated to the skier’s appropriately, it can be an asset to both the LOC and the skiers. 

I’ve been invited to attend AWSA’s National Rules Committee meeting in Houston in November to discuss T&B and the possibility of making a rules change to accommodate.   It should be an interesting discussion.

[Chef23]

Apodawil, if turn and burn lets skiers compete in an event that wouldn't be able to otherwise that is a good thing.  I have two children and only one of them skis tournaments.  I have had conflicts before that kept me from skiing an event because I don't have all day.  If using turn and burn I could leave the site by 1 or 2 I would have been able to ski.  Anything we do that gets more competitors at an event is a good thing from my perspective.

 I am not sure if I like turn and burn or not as a skier but I lilke the way it can speed up the event for people that chose to leverage it and provides options to people that my not have all day.

The event I chose to turn and burn I didn't leave I actually went to the judges tower for the third round so I didn't leave but chosing to turn and burn made it easier for me to help out.

[9400]

Joe and others, my only gripe about T&B is not knowing when I will ski my second round (I have to mentally prepare for my screw ups). I think it would be better if you had to declare you were going to do T&B prior to the second round starting so that the skiers behind you could have a better idea when they are going to ski. Other than that I have no complaints........about T&B.

[jdarwin]

9400 - that is certainly a concern and again, takes some planning to accomodate.  At my September tournament, I had a pretty good idea who would T&B on Sunday.  Therefore, added the approximate time to their 2nd round to give everyone a better idea when they would ski.  In fact, we were off only 7 minutes by the conclusion of the tournament. 

[6balls]

We just did T and B and skiwatch Pensacola--two 3 round tourneys.  Some liked, some didn't.  Speeds up the entire length of tourney thus can take more skiers.  Long middle round, though, for judges/drivers.  Also very long time for some between rounds 1 and 2, then 3rd round right around the corner.  I used it one day when I missed a 35 tail and ran it right back down in the tail.  The next day did not use it.  I like the option.

[skimom]

All, it is great to see all of the comments pros and cons.

This is exactly what our region (west) and the rules committee need to make decisions for all of the skiers.  Right now the Western Region has a few concerns about this format including inflated scores, official burnout and not knowing when the skiers will ski.

With our meeting coming in Nov. it will be great to have this feedback to offer the committee.  We, as a region, would not like to see this as a rule, but having this feedback is a great start to possibly changing things in the future.  There is currently an option for an exception and maybe more feedback is necessary.

Thanks and we do listen.

the Hot Girlfriend

PS maybe I will have the guts to go into the other thread of who we are, but I think I have already been ratted out!

[bmiller3536]

'the Hot Girlfriend'

Is that a self proclaimed title or an inside joke that I am just not on the inside of?

 

 

[jdarwin]

Skimom - having run many T&B events, I can address each of your concerns:

1.  Inflated scores - has not occurred.  Dave Clark is working w/ the data to confirm.

2.  Official burnout - in the T&B round (typically the 2nd), you MUST split your groups and swap officials.  This was in intregral part of my white paper to all who requested to run a T&B event.  If they failed to do so, it is NOT the fault of the format.

3.  Knowing when skiers will ski.  Again, I suggested to each LOC that they add 3 minutes to each skiers round in the T&B round in order to accomodate.  I've done this and my Sept tournament ended within 7 minutes of estimate.  Again, it's a logistical issue.

The only true objection that would prevent this from becoming a rule is the perceived skier advantage.  That's the only issue that crosses regional boundaries.  The other items are logistical and a site can choose not to implement or offer the format.  If the skier advantage fails to materialize, I see no reason why other regions/LOC's should not be able to at least offer this format as an option.

 

[9400]

I personally don't see inflated score as an issue. Most people can run what they can run under the rules in place, whether they have one shot, 2 shots or 5 shots. It might help some people who get a little freaked out about tournaments, but what's wrong with that?

[scoke]

 

I've skied quite a few T&B's and the skiers on the dock typically are asking the skier 3-5 ahead of them if they are T&B.

In Pcola, they even had a posted list skiers were going up to it and writing T&B next to their name. Pretty obvious how much the order was going to be affected, in a good way, plan accordingly and it's no big deal.

 

[Horton]

Joe & Richelle,

I think the logistics is a fair concern. With a bigger tournament it may require a change in the way we assign judges. All of the concerns besides scores seem to me as only requiring a little thought. We we have to rethink some things. If nothing else this is a really good thought excercise.

Miller,

the Hot Girl Friend joke is from a thread about Richelle' s boy friend  http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1240&page=1

[Than_Bogan]

I completely agree that logistics are a fair concern.  BUT I don't think that should be a consideration in deciding whether to approve T&B as an option.  I am an "assistant organizer" myself, and I seriously doubt we would do T&B at our annual tournament.  Logistical concerns (and laziness about figuring out how to deal with new unknowns) would be a part of the reason.

But that shouldn't mean that somebody else can't do it if they want to.

I think jd is correct in that the only fundamental reason to not approve this as an option is if scores are unfairly inflated by it.  Personally, my intuition is telling me there should be cases of that.  But I have learned over my lifetime that intuition is only a guide to what questions to ask.  Only measurement can tell you for sure.  If all data analysis show either no advantage or advantages that we deem "acceptable," then I see no reason not to approve the option.

[LeonL]

As a tournament organizer who offered T&B at two tournaments this season we saw 5 skiers utilize the option out of 30 skiers in the June tournament with only 2 improving their score.  In our Sept tournament there were 10 who opted to T&B out of 26 skiers with 3 improving on their round 2 score.  A couple of skiers came back at the pass that they missed on and did go deeper but failed to run the pass, so their score was 3 or 4. So, score inflation did not seem to be apparent in our instance.

[ForrestGump]

Than, you will find that there are a LOT of 0-6 scores on the 3rd/turn and burn rounds. In our 4 turn n burn tournaments this year at our lake which was over 300 pulls, I think there were only two increased scores attributed to a turn and burn round. My two times I T&B'd, I scored a whopping 2 buoys and 3 1/2 buoys.

[HO 410]

At a three round tournament, are all three rounds applied to the rankings, or is the high score the only one that gets entered?

[Than_Bogan]

Shane - Understood.  This is a great example of why data analysis must be done very carefully.  AVERAGE score would be completely useless, as it would be pulled down by all those 0-6 scores.

Also, one must factor in the possibility that 3rd rounds are just more successful, even in traditional formats.  (I believe this is the case for me personally but have never checked carefully.)

So, as an example of one measurement I would take, I'd want to see the percentage of time that the 3rd round was better than the 2nd round over a large sample of each of T&B and non-T&B.  And then look for a statistically significant difference in that percentage between the two formats.

In general, comparing T&B relative results to non-T&B relative results is where the information lies.  But even that must be done carefully and with quite a few measurements to test various hypotheses.

[Kelvin]

Shane, thanks for speeding up the tournaments =)

My last 3 round tournament scores were 1.5@32off, 1.5@28off and 2.5@35off (tied my TPB).  This wasn't a T&B tournament and my score improved in round 3 - so which format is an advantage to the skier?  Bottom line - your going to have those that get a better score in round 3 either way - it should be the skier's choice.  The rules need to change for the times!!!! 

[Than_Bogan]

I think everyone is aware of this, but I just want to re-emphasize:  A handful of individual experiences give very little insight into whether a format has advantages.  Each round has way too much variation for that to be the case.  Only in aggregate could any statistically significant advantage or disadvantage be identified.

Individual experiences remain extremely useful to help think up "questions" to "ask" of the data, though.

[ForrestGump]

HO410, Only the high single score in a tournament is applied to your 3 score average. 

[Gloersen]

HO 410: all scores entered, but only the high score is applied to the rankings. 

Overall T & B seems a good thing. In a September tournament (site undisclosed) just about 90% of the skiers T & B’d, making those whom opted to ski the full 3^rd round wait an incredibly long time, not to mention the judges sitting in the tower for a while.

 

Such issues can be addresses as stated in this thread. It does add a bit of decision strategy to those electing to T&B and to those whom do not (especially if a majority do).

 

Consistency in the rules is essential. At this September tournament in question, about ½ the skiers decided to T&B “on the flyâ€, i.e., after they fell in Rd 2, by waving the boat down, or staying in the middle of the lake until the boat returned; a bit disorganized & improper imho.

 

Additionally a hand full of T&B’rs on Rd3 dropped back to their opening line length. If I had known this was possible I would have T&B’d as well. I was under the impression that a skier could only drop back to the prior line length, e.g., fall at 12m, then opening line length of Rd3 can only be as long as 13m.

 

Personally I think the rules should be crystal clear and would prefer:

 

1.)    If opting to T&B; skier MUST announce this plan to the boat driver & judge PRIOR to starting Rd2. No midstream alterations, period.

 

2.)    The start of T&B Rd3 can only be at 1 prior line length (preferred). Consider limiting it to the line length at which the skier failed, that would make for interesting strategy and definitely shorten tournament times, as well as certainly not “inflate†scores.

[disland]

who cares if it increases performance. Isnt that the idea to try and ski better. Thats why we ski in the things. Its like saying its not fair that some skiers ski more tournaments than others. Hey lets make a rule that eveyone can only ski 4 tournaments a year so that no one has an advantage.

Trying to get an advantage is why people get on airplanes to ski at places like Ski Ranch and Trophy Lakes. is that fair? maybe we should make a rule you can only ski at Trophy Lakes once a year.

If you dont want to wait too long to ski, ski in smaller tournaments. Worried about wind. come to Princeton we have glass 90% of the time year round becuase we have a tree line.

 We had our own little local tournament at Princeton and did 3 rounds and were done by lunch. Did we have an advantage?

[9400]

I guess I need to ask the question "what is an inflated score?" When I think of inflated score, I think of something I may not normally be capable of, but that T&B would allow me to get that score. That's not going to happen. If we're talking about a better score in round 3 than in round 2...that could happen with or without T&B.

[Than_Bogan]

disland -- That is a completely valid viewpoint.  Similarly, 3 round tournaments are inherently advantageous over 1-round tournaments, and we are all accustomed to that.  I personally wouldn't support anything that makes 3-round tournament scores even more different from 1-round scores, but that's just my opinion -- there is no scientific reason that would be a bad thing.

9400 - I think the phrase "inflated score" is misleading.  Obviously nobody is going to ski a score that they are not actually capable of skiing.  However, most of us have a better practice best than tournament best.  There are a LOT of reasons for this, but one of them could be that we get to try a given pass multiple times.  So the concern is that doing two rounds in a row provides some advantage in getting scores that are closer to the absolute best we could accomplish with tons of tries.  But this is only a concern -- so far it doesn't appear to actually be true.  (And, as disland points out, we could choose to live with it even if it is true.)

[HO 410]

While it is technically possible that a skier could elect to go back to his or her opener, most anyone I've ever seen organizes the set to peak at the 5th pass. If you have the stamina to go back to the opener and ski up to 10 passes, God bless you. You are a better skier than I and deserve the water time. My opinion, you don't have to share it. I like my rules simple.

The statistics will be interesting but your fighting 2 things that will make it hard for scores to be inflated. First, you need to get a skier's high score to come out of the third round; porbably not all that rare. Then you need that score to deviate significantly from a skiers average score.

 

[eleeski]

T&B is a minor scheduling issue for local tournaments. It really is not a big deal either way. The course doesn't change for whatever round you ski. It is important that people stay to judge, drive and help clean up the tournament - whatever format goes.

Eric

[Horton]

I am for T&B. In fact I would benefit from all three scores in one round.  This is because all I want is to run freak’n 38. For me to go out and run through mid 38 and then get 2 more wacks at it should be an advantage.  For my second and third rounds I would go straight out at 38. If I do not run 38 in 3 tries, my only real score is the first one.

If I was a slightly better skier and was trying to get to 3 ball at 39, I would need to rerun 38 for every try at 39. I see this as a disadvantage.  I think I would opt to run 3 normal rounds in this case.  

I think these are the only kinds of issues & scenarios we should be talking about.  I do not see that we cannot rethink judging assignments and running orders. Heck, if judging assignment organization and logistics is driving the rules I think we have a bigger problem.

I know Joe disagrees with me on this but I still say that if T&B is only available as a rare exception it should go away. I am a huge fan of trying new things but in the end the sport needs to be homogenized. Hopefully we will see more T&B events in 2011 so we can make a smart decision one way or the other.

[Horton]

I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread and the one about how we use the rule book, friendly.   These things can get heated. That does not help and I do not allow it. I firmly believe this is why BOS has risen to be the biggest and best site/forum on the InterTubes.

[jdarwin]

John - the reason I do not like the idea of "all or nothing" is simply political in nature.  If I had pushed this as an "all or nothing" scenario, it would have never taken flight.  Would I oppose this idea in the future?  No.  I believe once the logistical concerns are addressed w/ most LOC's, the format will become the norm if allowed to do so.  It just makes too much sense in too many ways.  I've seen it run successfully too many times.  But forcing a format change to ALL Class C tournaments is a tall order.  I agree w/ your premise but it takes time for new ideas to evolve and be accepted. 

[Horton]

100% agree & it pains me

[RichardDoane]

You should all plan come to Seattle for the 2011 Memorial Day 3 rounder @ the Broho for some T & B !

[jdarwin]

Richard - that's assuming that T&B is approved as a rule change OR the rules exception is extended for next year.  At this point, the blanket exception was for the 2010 calendar year ONLY.  As stated earlier in this thread, I will be attending the national meeting of the Rules Comm in Houston next month.  I'll provide updates as warranted.  Hopefully, this will become a permanent option or at the very least, another year of exceptions for the collection of additional data.

[dvskiing]

I have been against t&b from the begining.  After participating in a T&b I see I was against in principle and for all the wrong reasons.  At this point I do not see the harm in allowing an open exception for host clubs that want to coordinate the event.  I would rather not show up and and have to deal with it every time I ski.  The excuse of better performances etc I feel were unfounded based on my observations.  I would vote to continue to allow the exception and keep everyone happy.

[6balls]

T and B is no more advantageous to a skier who skis just a few tourneys than skiing a pile of tournaments is to a skier in composite score.  I can ski as well on any given day, sometimes better, than skiers w/better composites than me because they ski so many tourney's.  They have many rounds from which to obtain 3 great rounds for composite...I may have only 3 tourneys, period.

If we are not to limit # of tourneys as an advantage, it would seem we shouldn't limit T and B, either.  We need more involvement in our sport.  It's anectdotal...but I ski w/a  guy who on a good day runs 35...maybe 10-15 times total/season.  He doesn't go to tourneys...but might w/T and B thinking that if he has 2 shots in a row at 35...his chances improve.  He has said in the past that if a 3 rd tourney meant he could run 32 and take 3 cracks at 35, he would show up.  It's a different mindset, but if it's the same for all...it's fair.

6 

    

[skiray]

We just moved this year and have not had many opportunities to ski.  Consequently, my consistency was way off and I did not ski tournaments.  I did not know about the T&B format.  If I would have, I would have given a T&B tournament a shot.

[Dirt]

The way Darwin does it, it rocks. He has it planned out what time everyone will ski and it is very accurate. I am not sure everyone else is as organized as Joe but this is a great option. I am a big fan, even though it did not increase my score.

[GK]

I have not yet skied in a turn and burn event, but my initial concerns have been official growth.  It's already a bit of a struggle not killing the few officials all day long and now you're telling those most dedicated skiers that they need to hang around until the end while everyone else knocks out their 2nd & 3rd round and take off.  What if those you're counting on to officiate in the 3rd want to T&B and leave?  I like the idea from a skier standpoint and would probably utilize it as a skier, but I'm not convinced it's what's best for the sport?  Do we really want to encourage people to ski and leave?  Isn't that one of the things that's been effecting whether a tournament is FUN?  My guess is that the BOS view is going to be tilted pretty far to one side with deep shortline skiers who are more likely going to a tournament to get a "score" as opposed to enjoy the tournament as a whole?  Instead of speeding tournaments up, maybe we should be slowing them down?  More awards, more chances to EARN additional rounds, more emphasis on FUN instead of scores, etc?  T&Bs sound great to me as a fun alternate format from time to time to keep things fresh but I'm not convinced it's a good idea long term for the majority of tournaments across the country.

[Kelvin]

T&B allows more skiers to ski in some of the popular tournaments around the country, like those JD hosts.  That's a good thing for the sport.