Trent talks about edge change and out bound to the ball.

[Horton]

Trent talks about edge change and out bound to the ball. Read it. 

Common Ground: Trent lays down some knowledge about getting out to the ball. http://t.co/4NT1tWK

[Razorskier1]

Read this.  Really good sh**!  Trent keeps it simple vs. some guys who say the same things but make it Phd level stuff that I just can't follow!

[Dirt]

Great article.

[Horton]

Simple but gold

[scoke]

 

i read it. unfortunately didnt understand a single thing said in it. i thought it was about motocross for a few sentences.

/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-frown.gif

anyone else not able to read it?

 

[Marco]

He lost me with the comment about the hips facing the direction of travel, and being closed to the boat.

[ski6jones]

Marco,

I had lessons with both he and Jodi Fisher this summer and both were preaching that, hips facing the direction of travel.

Upper body no, but hips yes.

Hips open to the boat always bothered me cause you can't do it very well (at all) on the weak side.

[A_B]

Scoke, allow me, I speak Jive...... Sorry, couldn't resist in honor of Leslie Nielson's passing.

 

 

I think the gist of it is that you setup the edge change by NOT trying to increase lean as you are in the wakes.

If you watch the pros, they load the handle going into the wake, maintain, then pop out of it right after the second wake onto an edge change. The hips below the waist have to be pointed on your line ( we use to say point with your peepee) but the shoulders can stay more open. Old school would have the shoulders rotated to the line of travel as well.

 

I am guilty all the time of trying to get that little bit extra behind the boat, and delaying my edge change transition.

[scoke]

 

i dont know what goggle crome is but here is the video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymMBEwtRZOg

 

[Marco]

Ski6Jones- This summer I was working on what Terry Winter was talking about in his article "Water Ski Lesson: 2 On Sides by Terry Winter".  He says...

"On our on-side turns our hips are naturally opened up, making it easier to keep the shoulders level, and get the lower body weight moving over the inside of the arc. The off-side is more difficult because our hips are closed up."

And goes on to say:  "By opening up the hips as much as possible into and through our off-side turns we can make the ski turn equally well on both sides of the course."

Is this new school concept out of date now?? Did I waste my whole summer chasing my tail??  Say it aint so.

[ski6jones]

Marco,

My reaction as well with Jodi, the first to tell me hips inthe direction of travel.  But I always try to keep an open mind during a lesson so I worked hard to do what he said.

What I took from that lesson was he was trying to improve the symetry of my skiing, which I thought was a real good idea.  I was having the problem that I would get stupid early on my good pull and often that would screw up my off side turn and pull.

It also always bothered me that I was supposed to open my hips to the boat, but could only really accomplish that on my onside pull.

So I'm still working on  this when Trent comes to our site.  I say nothing and ask no questions before we start and he never once tells me to do anything diferent with my hips.   His main comments to me were about my gates (good call) and to much load on the line on my on side pull (another good call).  He also mentioned the symetry thing.

All in all consistent with Jodis comments.

So far I'm sticking with it.  It makes sense to me.

[6balls]

My interp (also skied w/Jodi), is hips facing the front of the ski, and during edge change try to keep the hips facing the DESIRED direction of travel...which at this point is still outbound.  I believe this may help carry outbound better through the edge change and beyond.  It counters a bit the tendency to take the direction of my hips upcourse too soon, thus giving away width I can't afford to give up as the line becomes ever shorter.  Now if I could just be more patient and keep my head level on my damned onside turn....(among other things)!       

[Chef23]

Obviously Andy was using a RTP in September. Watching this made me remember Andy's video and when he talks about width I don't think he is talking about being wider than the balls but early. Andy gets great angle out of the ball and is very early for the next ball. Even at 39 when he needs to wait to turn he gets great angle and is early for the next ball. Great video it must have been awesome to be there.

[6balls]

Very cool, thanks for posting.  After the vid click below and another one of Andy is there where he runs thru 41 at 36mph.  Amazing stuff.

He seems to release handle a bit sooner than some others, but maintains amazing outbound angle w/just one hand while riding inside edge.  When my body is in that position, I'm skiing upcourse not outbound...grr.  About the only thing I have in common w/Andy is a RTP!

 

[lakeaustinskier]

Might as jump in here since I'm one of the people that has also taken lessons from both Jodi and Trent. I've also mentioned before that Trent trains in the area (Aquaplex) and I take lessons from him on a regular basis :). IMO Trent has very clear advice that I can understand.

 

Jodo told me the same thing about aligning the hips with the tip of my ski. My "take away" was that by aligning the hips you were more likely to maintain cross course speed and outbound direction. I've also considered that Jodi was Mapple's long term training partner (always good).

 

Trent has always worked on trying to get me to aggressively move the handle to my hip starting from the pullout from the foam all the way through the course. At first I had a hard time reconciling Jodi's advice (alignment of hips) with Trent's advice (handle to hips) and then the light bulb finally turned on. If I come out of the turn with proper body position (stacked and connected through my hips and core) and place the handle to my hips........my hips are automatically aligned with the ski. Of course, I tend to lose it coming off the second wake.

[Marco]

Well...it sounds like I need to refocus my hip positioning when I get back on the water sometime next summer.  It will give me something to think about all winter long.

[Horton]

Brent's Andy video is now on the front page

http://www.ballofspray.com/video/82-pro-skiers-video/737-andy-mapple-montreal-clinic-in-september

 

[Horton]

I think the confusion here is a classic example of misunderstanding "West Coast/ New School". This kind of confusion is the reason that I say New School is dead.

 

If you are right foot forward and are going from 1/3/5 to 2/4/6, how does rotating your pelvis clockwise (right) help anything?

 

I think we all agree that a natural amount upper body rotation in this direction and a transfer of power to the right arm is optimal. As your pelvis rotates away from the line that your ski is on, you are forced to do “something” with your knees and ankles. Generally this “something” is a squat that takes your center of mass backwards.

 

I know I am no where near the best skier or smartest guy on this message board but I am pretty sure that you do not want to squat on your way from the ball to the wakes. If someone wants to try to change my mind, bring it on.

[Horton]

Did I kill this thread?

[scoke]

 

you just confused me even more.

 why are discussing this stuff anyway? lets talk about something else.

 

[Horton]

Scoke,

Are you sure you are a real Baller?

[jimbrake]

Horton - In answer to your question re: rotating a RFF skier's hips clockwise on his/her offside pull, I'll tell ya how it helps. It moves mass forward more over your feet and actually puts more ski in the water for better hold and better carry out off the 2nd wake. It also allows you to keep your hips down and the resulting ski edge angle is better. Rotating your hips the opposite direction (on the same offside pull) will not help this. I know water skiers think this is an awkward move, but it's not as tough as you might think. Yes, it's a bit more "twisted" than the natural position you have on your onside pull, but it still works and works well. Snow ski racers (and I know most of you aren't one of those) understand this hip rotation and what it does to your position over your ski(s) and how it biomechanically allows you to move your hips down without over-leaning your upper body. I really ought to do a quick youtube video on this ala RJM to demonstrate, but not sure enough people will understand or agree to make it worth it.

[kstateskier]

This article made perfect sense! GREAT READ!  Simple ideas are easier to focus on!  Good Stuff Trent!  Now I will have to think about this stuff and try and remember it two months from now when I finally get to ski again...  :(

[kstateskier]

Quick question... 

 Is the ability to change edges and continue your outbound direction without the ski starting to turn a result of a good pull OR staying on the handle with both hands and not transferring your weight to the inside edge?  Does that make sense?

 

The reason I ask is, i find it hard to change edges without the ski wanting to start its turn??

[Ed_Johnson]

What Jim is saying is absolutely correct. Keep in mind that first you want to slide or ski the hip to the handle, "Power Triangle Position." Hips now pointed in the direction of travel. What is important is that the pull from the boat will be directed to this area and lock in the Center of Mass, ( COM).

 

 

From this position you can do what Jim describes and try to force the inside, lower hip, COM, to swing in the direction of travel. There is no need for excessive knee bend. Shorter people may, in oder to lower their center of gravity for more leverage.

 

 

The twisting force you exert will increase edge angle and engages the rocker. This also increases ski speed causing the ski to move ahead and under you, while you maintain your lean during the transition, " edge change."

 

 

As Jim mentions, it does follow more Snow Ski technique, since it relies on COM movement and DE-weighting the ski during the transition.

 

 

Hope this helps, ED

[Horton]

Jim,

You caught me painting with a broad brush. I agree that what you are saying has merit. What worries me is that skiers will read this and try to rotate their hips excessively (RFF –  clockwise on way to 2/4/6). I guess I am on a bit of a crusade to scrub out some of the New School misconceptions that are so common. 15 years ago I was trying to squat!

My whole approach to skiing is shaped by what I learned (in another life) as a jumper.  Jumping taught me that there is a hierarchy of what is important. Own the core basics first. In this case being stacked, stable and comfortable is job # 1. If you have the skills to do these things consistently, then pelvis rotation to bring your center of mass forward sounds a lot more interesting.   

I am passionate about this because I see so many skiers skipping basics for the latest cool new fad.  Don’t forget that the readers of this site vary from guys who see 41 off to guys who just want to run 6 balls at any speed.

[jayski]

It's pretty hard to fully rotate your hips on your offside pull but the desired effect is to keep your shoulders level and facing down course, level shoulders both ears facing the boat, safest, strongest position. Also I think maybe moving into a "squatting" position as you come out of the ball will aid in a decrease in load as you come to the wakes. This of course benefits with ZO because if you load early your going to pay for it...

[colo_skier]

Something I have noticed is that if I try to really open my hips to the boat I then get the comment from the boat to stand up, stop squatting and get off the back of the ski. I also seem to be narrow. I seem to be in a lot better position if I really work on the hip up to the handle and shoulders open to the boat and just forget about really trying to rotating my hips  Being one of the "I want to run six at 15 off at 34"  guys I like to understand the basics that I need to get right.  Hips more facing the direction I want to go seems to make sense.

[Chuck_Dickey]

I think this pic shows a great skier doing a bit of hanging off the back edge. Will Asher at 41 off, going from one to two ball, RFF

Hips are open to the boat somewhat. Knees are bent allowing his rotation.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4-6ay9R-bLE/TP7vzQE87uI/AAAAAAAAEjc/AOuhZOigZCA/s640/Asher%20MO%2005.jpg

[jimbrake]

I didn't say squat about squatting. Although, I get where you are going JTH. I agree - basics first.

Jayski - agree on position. To me, overloading comes from too much upper body effort lean and not enough lower body lean. I like to develop more edge angle with hips and legs and have less upper body load.

Colo_skier - if facing the boat is making you squat, putting you on the back of the ski, and making you ski narrow, then something else is amiss. Got any video of you?

I like that Will Asher pic. He and Jamie B. are the men. So's Parrish, too, though.

[6balls]

In the pic, his hips face the tip of the ski...his direction of travel.  Jodi preaches this technique.

[Chuck_Dickey]

6balls,

 Looks to me like his hips are open to the boat. Look at his hip angle and look at the direction is front foot is pointing (which IS his direction of travel). It looks to me like there is a lot of rotation. It looks to me as if his mass is a bit off the back edge of the ski. Yes, No ?

[thager]

JTH,

 

15 years since you've tried to squat? No wonder you're so full of crap!!!!!

:)

[Horton]

What I is see in the photo (and we all see something different) is that his hips are turned a few degrees. It is subtle – not radical.

[skier2788]

Colo_skier, 

Where do you ski at?  I am moving back to Colorado and have a private lake I have been on for years there. It is between Fort Collins and Loveland. I might be looking for a ski partner for next summer. If you are close you can come by and take a ride with me.

[skibug]

What I notice in the picture is that it is not "ME".

[h2odawg79]

Please clarify!

Are we saying to "point with your pee pee" and not fully open your shoulders to the boat? 

Or slightly open your Hips to the Boat and fully open the shouklders ? 

Willie seems slightly and equally opened with both... 

[jayski]

My perception is if you can pull off both that would be great, but realistically, offside is hard to rotate your hips that far  beceause of placement of feet and how much outward rotation on your back foot, if you're back foot is straighter on the ski the easier it is to  create the "openness" on your offside, regardless, if you rotate your shoulders in any direction your hips will follow unless you activley try to inhibit them.

[RichardDoane]

AndyMapple coached being less "open" on your off side, that way you would have better direction on your weaker side

[Steven]

If we're trying to be more open with our hips on our offside would it be better to rotate our front boot slightly towards our little toe and keep our rear boot straight? I'd be interested in hearing theory about this???? Wouldn't that make it easier to be more open?

[RichardDoane]

I've never tried rotating my front foot, but don't think it'd be a good idea, anybody else ????

[Gloersen]

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_slLg_3Cyrvs/TQVPgybDA_I/AAAAAAAAAuU/XpuPYh3SQEM/s144/Asher%20MO%2005%20%282%29.png

[Steven]

I've never done it either but remember reading somewhere that both Jamie and Rossi "used" to do it. I don't think that it was much, 1/8" or less.

I'm sure Gloersen is trying to show us something??? What are we supposed to do with that? copy and paste?

[Steven]

Can someone put the Asher article on BOS? I'm out in B.F. Egypt and don't have adobe on my computer and it takes for ever to download anything. AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!