Baller_ Wish Posted August 26, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted August 26, 2011 This may have been answered but is this an open bow concept. If so what about a hardshell top that snaps in water tight for closed bow look. Removed for friends/kids. I know most traditional skiers do not like the role bar/chin up bar/wake tower, but they do offer a way to store equipment out of the way. What about a hybrid version the creates very usable storage, a truly functional bimini, and a highish tow point secondary to the for mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Think more along the lines of a rumble seat. Havent even thought about a tower. Honestly with the look that I'm working towards it will be hard to come up with one that works with the lines of the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted August 26, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted August 26, 2011 Rumble seat is perfect. And i mean perfect. I get what your shooting for with the boat design. Not suggesting the chin up bar be made of shiny pipe. Think outside that box. Design the functional bimini (not suggesting traditional bimini) with storage options. Maybe u could get inspiration from the old woody cars from the 30s and 40s roof racks and all. Back seat??? Would be cool to have usable back seat that has a higher back when used and lowered for skiing be it a bench or corner seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 I just havent had a chance to even think about the tower yet ive spent most of my time working on the running surface. Your back seat idea would work, but it would break up the lines of the boat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted August 27, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted August 27, 2011 Seat is only up with people in it. With their butts in the seat, the lines of the boat are obscured anyway. Same with the rumble seat. Passengers leave (accept next to driver) and boat is back to looking cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 I dont know...thank you for the ideas though! It did give some inspiration of it it were going to move up and down to also use a multiposition hinge to allow it to become part of a sun pad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller behindpropellers Posted August 29, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2011 Check out the Ski Nautique 176 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 A boat that small creates a whole lot of problems for a designer because of the Coast Guards level floatation regs for a boat that size. What this means in basic terms is you end up putting a ton of foam where you dont really want to just for the boat to have enough buoyancy to pass. It is one of the reasons none of the major builders are doing a small boat right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Bulldog Posted August 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 30, 2011 I Disagree, they are not making small boats right now because the Wakeboarders are driving the market (I know us ballers don't like that but its true) and they like their boats big and wide!!! With really big wakes.. "Do Better..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted August 30, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted August 30, 2011 Back to the barrel back design, where will the skier sit on the transom to adjust boots, etc. while getting ready to ski? Most of the gang I ski with sit on the transom to get ready, mainly to tighten the binding laces/latches. Would you use the articulated sun pad as the transom seat? Great looking boat in the pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted August 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 30, 2011 C'mon MCskiFreak, you know that foam is cheap, light and easy to design with. Replace that 50 gallon gas tank in the rear with a 10 gallon tank and a bunch of foam. Ballast the swim step for the wakeboarders. Plenty of small boats work quite well. My tiny 79 American skier has one of the best technical wakes of any boat ever built. An old 76 Nautique running light was excellent also. V6 power might save weight while still having enough HP for jump. The magic can be in the materials - not the weird oversize hull designs in favor now. Spend some time on a tower also. A well designed tower that doesn't screw up the balance, interfere with the rope or bonk your head painfully is critical. And make sure the driver can pick up the released trick rope from the driver's seat. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 The Barrel Back will have a step over similar to the Svfara. The transom really is different only in shape from what is currently on the market minus a trunk, so no issues with sitting and putting on skis. @eleeski and @Bulldog the regs have changed alot since '79 and it is a pain to design a boat with usable space that will pass a level floation test. This test the boat is fully swamped and the boat must remain floating level at the gunnels. No offense but a.) people build boats to sell, and b.) the 176 only lasted a couple of years. Why do you think that was if all of the people on this board think there is such a large market. The boat that I am working on is approx the same size as a 196 or mid-90's prostar which gives enough room to be comfotable and useful while not being oversized like the current 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller animal Posted August 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 30, 2011 MCskiFreak What exactly do you mean by oversized? the 200 is only 6 inches longer than a 196 and only a bit wider. It does seem to be a much deeper boat with more interior finishings and weight. Is it running surface which is the issue? Is it weight that is the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Both the running surface and the weight are an issue, I see no reason to continue on with 3,000lb tournament boats. The problem is that the general public sees overly thick hull and thinks ahh well built, I see it as wasteful. I would love to be able to use cored lamenates to reduce the weight of the boat by a considerable margin, while retaining the quite solid riding feel of the boats currently on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted August 30, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted August 30, 2011 Taking a page from the auto industry, how about devising a way to build a boat at multiple lengths (could add width but that would be much more challenging) from the same mold (car industry lingo is platform). That might offer the BOS gang (us) that nice, short, light boat, but then allow you to manufacture a more general purpose boat off the same mold for the numbers generation and ultimately acceptable profit margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted August 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 30, 2011 DW, I can't see that working well as the running surface design for a boat 6 inches or 12 inches longer might be drastically different to achieve optimum performance in a given envelope. In a car, platform commonality makes a lot of sense from an economies of scale perspective. But in that case, you are talking about hundreds of thousands of units. In a boat, I see compromise written all over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 @DW that sort of thing is commonly done for boats that dont have complicated hull geometry. For example a 38 foot boat may be made with the same mold as the 42' model. This only works because they are a modified V hull that dont have spray pockets steps etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted August 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 30, 2011 One of the things I like about the bubble butt SN 196 I have w/tapered platform is that the slalom rope almost NEVER gets hung up back there. It does get caught on the square edges of the MC 197 and Lxi. Good driving during final pull out and shortening process obviously can mitigate it...but I still like the design. Light weight would allow lighter power as well, but I have to think tracking would suffer. The malibu sportster had a great wake, but could be pulled around. The CC 200 I drove this weekend was a hunkered down beast in terms of tracking...not sure I've ever driven a better tracking boat. I have to imagine size/mass/wetted surface has something to do with this...but also make it less efficient. Trade offs everywhere...tough to slot in the right boat in a small market. Kudos MCskiFreak for going after something different as market success will be challenging even with a good product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 While the weight does have some obvious effect on the tracking characteristics, the hull itself has the largest effect; which was one of the spoertsters problems along with only have 2 tracking fins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted August 30, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted August 30, 2011 The Gekko GTR I drove tracked very rail like. I think it was on par in weight as the 196 but much wider and longer. I would also say it was a very ratical hull design that I'm sure has everything to do with it's outstanding tracking. Ok ski wake not the best but kinda proves MCskiFeaks comment. I still say the most forward thinking hull design that was decades ahead of it's time was the 80s SupraTs6m. A very outside the box design from top to bottom. The industry copied every design aspect of that boat for the next 2 decades. Even the open bow version. Ironically the same guy designed the Gekko. Looking forward to saying the same things about MCskiFreaks design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted August 31, 2011 Supporting Member Share Posted August 31, 2011 Light is good, but the key point is smaller wakes at kids speeds and longer lines. My rudimentary understanding of boat design tells me that light weight implies that, but if it can be done with heavy weight, then I don't think I care about the weight unto itself. Beam can't be more than 91", though, for The Cochituate Mousehould Tunnel!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well here is a little taste of what ive been working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted August 31, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted August 31, 2011 Coooooool! Seriously. Can't figure out the back view. Is the platform folded up in that view? Will the windshield be frameless?? Or is that cause it's a line drawing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Sorry, uploaded the wrong drawing!! Here is one with the lines that dont need to be there erased. I changed up the transom shape so the right hand and left hand view dont really match because of the change in shape that takes place with the more radical barrel that I decided to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 @Wish , The transom is a barrel back design so as it moves to the real the boat rolls in on itself. The platform is represented there in both views. just a little hard to tell in the right hand view. The idea for the framless windshield came from this boat http://vandamboats.com/boats/don-don It is purely for cool looks right now since it would cost a fortune to do an actual windshield like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted August 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 31, 2011 Nice looking design. I like the lines of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted August 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted August 31, 2011 There are so may considerations for ski boat designs. I like the slanted transom on the 1990-1996 nautique verses the 1997-1999. There is more room to stand on the platform, and you can still sit on top of the transom. I am not crazy about the vinyl decks across the current model master craft, and 2002-2009 nautiques. More vinyl to maintain, and it is in a spot where it takes a beating. The 1997-1999 transom's plus is there is no way for a rope to catch on a back corner or platform. The 1990-1996 transom eliminates most of the rope catching on the back corner of the boat and platform. On my boat I can take out the center back seat cushion and put it in a compartment, and the lid becomes a carpeted step. The transom is easy to step over. I would like to see a back seat design where you could turn the whole thing into a carpeted step without having to take it out of the boat such as 3 cushions in 3 compartments. I normally leave the back set out of my boat unless my family is entertaining. In the cockpit I still prefer to have my speedometers and speed control in my line of sight. When I drive I want to see the speedos, tach, and course/path without having to move my head or eyes. There are times where I prefer to drive manually(barefooters, and beginner skiers). The manufacturers are skimping on the dashboards. I like a full complement of analog guages. I would have a GPS based speedometer that reads with an old fashioned analog style needle on its face. The new boats are too reliant on speed control I would still be able to have the means to drive a boat manually if the speed control happens to malfunction. If I were designing a boat. I would have the transom shaped like the SN200, the cockpit would be modeled after the 1994-1996 Ski Nautique. I would try to keep the weight of the boat under 2500 pounds, and keep it between 19 -19'6'' long and 91 inches wide. I would have the back seat fully removable, or devise a system where you can flip over the back seat and convert it into a carpeted step. The windshield would be set so the driver can reach over and grab a dock, or reach down and pick up a trick rope that has been released and hand it to the spotter. I would try to maximize floor and storage space. A "U" shaped gas tank along the transom and sides could potentially free up more floor space behind the engine. There are materials out there to make the boats lighter and structurally stronger than previous generations. I will add more later.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 @GAJ0004 The boat there is 19'4" without the platform with a 91" beam. I have a similar goal of stripping as much weight as possible from the boat, and using cored laminates wherever I can. The dash I have been going back and fourth on what to do. I do like the 200 style dash but think it could have been done better, Im also in favor of KISS for the dash components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted September 1, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 1, 2011 If I designed a SN200 style dash I would have a heads up display that would show the speed and the buoy to buoy times, split, and full course times up on the windshield. That would come in handy for pulling barefooters too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted September 1, 2011 Supporting Member Share Posted September 1, 2011 Definitely like what I'm hearing so far, especially around size, weight, simplicity. If the price can come in noticeably under the other guys, I'd get very interested. I'm not much of a style guy, so I don't have a lot to say about the drawings other they certainly wouldn't turn me off. Does it come in green and tan? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller gregy Posted September 1, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 1, 2011 I can't get a feel of what the rear would look like from the drawing, but I don't like the barrel look on the back. Looks good on old wooden boats but I think a more traditional ski boat design looks better and would give a more effective utilization of space. I have a older American skier (besides the electronics) - My wish list would be an open bow of some kind and more interior room for gear. I had a early 90s Prostar that I really liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted September 1, 2011 Supporting Member Share Posted September 1, 2011 From a marketing standpoint, there is a potential advantage just to looking different, as long as at least some people really like the look. I remember some people thought the '97 Nautique's back looked weird because it was all rounded. I've heard it called "bubble butt," but I prefer "The Voluptuous Boat." Some people really liked it (including me), and I think there's something to be said for distinctive. Perhaps even more so if trying to "break in." Having a really unique look draws attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted September 1, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted September 1, 2011 Very attractive clean design. Nice to see compared to many of the angular, cluttered versions out today. Given the size, what is your target weight? I would guess 2100# should be attainable with many aluminum powertrains available (LS series V8's as an example), and a stretch goal of 1900# or under with some creative materials, designs and still have a quality, solid build. I have to agree on the use of (accurate) analog gauges, one of my peeves of the newer boats is a complete lack of an accurate set of instruments (too much reliance on speed control). The only two boats in the 6 I ski behind that have accurate speedo's are the ones with Airguides and they happen to be the oldest 2 (both pre 98), the others are simply wasted space (and are represented by all of the big three). Given the classic design, I see the potential of a wood dash, wood wheel & shift knob. . . that would really add to Than's green and tan combo. Malibu had that several years back and it was quite attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted September 1, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 1, 2011 Marinizing a Ford 3.5 v6 Ecoboost would be badass for something like this. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tru-jack Posted September 1, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 1, 2011 v6 tdi is the way to go. perfect torque and great on fuel. Just don't make it a $30k option like it currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 Tdi and EcoBoost would be really awesome but they are both super expensive options. Turbo engines also present a problem in such a small enclosed space with being able to efficiently cool the turbo's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted September 2, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted September 2, 2011 You would certainly want to look at a water cooled turbo option, plenty of cool water to accomodate it. You are correct, heat will be the key element on implementing that technology. TDI is certainly the wave of the future in powertrain development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted September 7, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 7, 2011 A two speed tranny would be nice. The first gear would be the gear reduction for pulling the skier out of the water, the it would switch to a 1:1 once the speed is set. It would keep the RPM down, give the boat more speed for barefooters. The new Chrysler Pentastar V6 could work as a base engine. It all depends on how expensive it is to marinize. It has 290 HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Two speed tranny = super expensive engineering = super expensive boat. The only way to really get a marine engine is if the mfg. has a marine division that will sell ones which Chrysler does not, nor does Ford. Im all about the torque monster diesels and electric power trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted September 19, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 19, 2011 I don't think you will see anything but GM engines. I was told by a mechanic at a marina that one of american auto makers could fill orders for engines for the entire marine industry in a week. He told me it all comes down to which engine is the easiest, and least expensive to marinize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted September 19, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 19, 2011 Another design consideration would be paddlewheel sensor speedometers with an analog face instead of an LCD display. The paddlewheel gives you a measure of speed across the water. I would also add a windsheild defogger like you would see in the back window of a minivan or SUV, but make the wires thin enough as to not obscure the view for the driver(for boats that don't have a heater). I was thinking of boat designs I have liked over the years. I would have the dash/cockpit of a 1994 Nautique. I like the transom of the 1994-1996 Nautique because it has plenty of room for standing on the platform, you can easily sit on the top of the transom, and the shape eliminates most of the rope catching on the back corners. When the back seat is out it is very easy to step over. When it is in you can convert the center to a carpeted step on my boat. I would use the hull shape of the SN200, but keep the 19'6'' footprint. To make the boat lighter I am wondering if a carbon fiber stringer system, or aluminum stringer system would work. I would only use them if they are stronger and lighter than a fiberglass stringer system. I would have the entire dash in black to eliminate sun glare. I prefer white face guages. A panoramic mirror above the windshield would be nice too. I like the transom saver on the Master Craft teak platforms. On the ski pylon I would have a pop-out hook for attaching a shock tube just below the point where you attach the slalom line. When not in use it would be completely recessed so you could add an extended pylon if you do have to pull a kneeboarder or wakeboarder. I would minimize the vinyl to the seats and the engine cover. I would not have coaming pads. I would have the gunnels shaped like a step with a non skid surface for boarding. The current Master Craft gunnels are not good to use as a step to get in the boat. I would have some type ski racks along the sides of the boat like they used to have in the late 70's and early 80's except I would have them so they could fold out of the way when not in use. I would also have a tunable rudder, dripless packing seal. I like the floor of the Carbon Pro, but I would combine that with the snap in carpet I have seen in some Master Craft TT boats. I like the back seat system on the SN 200. I would divise a similar system that would allow you to flip it upside down to convert the back seat to a carpeted step without having to remove it from the boat. I would still want the floor in the back to be completely flat. I would have the floor at the stern wide enough to lay a slalom ski across the back of the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted September 19, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 19, 2011 I was thinking what it would be like to ski behind one of those Dodge Hemi engines.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 Wow lots to answer here. There are plenty of marine engines available out there, GM does dominate the market with pleasure boats in the US but there are plenty of marine diesel powertrains out there that can be used. The problem with using a carbon fiber stringer system is that it has much different physical properties from from fiberglass and the hull would basically become the weaker of the two structures, another problem with Carbon Fiber is because of its high stiffness it transmits vibrations very well and that means all of the vibrations from the drive train are being transferred to the hull and floor. Like I said before I am all about simplicity of the instruments as well as redundancy so simple gauges are fine. I've worked quite hard on a new hull form that is unlike anything else on the market and has much less drag than the 200 hull which in my opinion could have been done in a way that didn't have a large spike in the fuel consumption which in coming years is going to gain importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted September 20, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted September 20, 2011 Would your hull include a step bottom?? Or some way to break up water surface tensions?? Seems to be the new direction for some ski companies. Successfully I might add. To me it would make sence to make the boat move forward with the least amount of resistance via hull design and rely on running gear design to keep it straight and true under skiing loads. Of course I'm completely speaking from a non engineer perspective and have enjoyed being educated by you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 I'm not really ready to comment on what the actual design entails on the web because it is different and I dont want it to be picked up and used by some company. I will say that reducing resistance was a high consideration of mine in the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Some of you in the local New Orleans area may be interested in this. On thursday Ron Tanis the former owner of American Skier will be speaking to the Naval Architecture dept. about production boat building. If anyone is in the New Orleans area and would like to stop by you are more than welcome to do so, just drop me a line at mwelton at uno dot edu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted September 20, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted September 20, 2011 Not in New Orleans but the discussion sounds fascinating and I would love to "attend". Do you know if there would be a possibility of a Webx or call in opportunity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 we dont really have anything like that set up in our ship design lab where the presentation is given. I could video it and post it up, or take notes and provide a detailed write up of the presentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted September 20, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted September 20, 2011 Video would be very cool, notes would also work. I am jealous! Enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted September 20, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted September 20, 2011 Hmm!!! Hemi? Seen a marinized one once! could one be in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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