Managing ski times at your lake

[jipster43]

I'm lucky enough to be a charter member of a new ski club with our own ski lake and Malibu promo boat.  The owners of the ski lake want to keep the membership at 10 for the first year so we can work all the wrinkles out, and then the membership will be capped at 20.  How do y'all work the time slots at your clubs so that everything is equitable and folks remain happy?  We are planning on having a day a week available for non-members, but the rest of the week will be reserved strictly for the 20 members and their paid family members, realistically most of those 20 members will be skiing with at least one other member during each set.  I appreciate yer help!  

 

JP :)

[Horton]

There are a lot of ways to organize this. I can tell you some of the pitfalls

 

Ski rides need to have a fixed time when more than 3 members are in line

Time between the end of the last ride and the start of the next is a big deal

With only one boat you do not have to worry about flags and such but you need to dictate if a skier can leave the dock and keep their position in line

 

Remember, you think all your members are reasonable people – they are not. Logical but strict rules are a good thing.

Can Ballers ski anytime? That is also important.

[jipster43]

Thanks for the valuable info Horton!  We haven't even started taking money and folks are already trying to figure out how they can pay less 'cause they "will be vacationing, working, parenting, etc..."  We're looking to make things as simple and concrete as possible, so there's no room for headaches.  That's why we really want to hear what systems other lakes have used and try to do it correctly from the get-go.

"Can Ballers ski anytime? That is also important."

The fella' who owns the lake (Matt) is pretty laid back and wants to develop a cool scene which includes inviting folks with more experience to ski with us - possibly putting them up in the historical Sacajawea Inn (incredible steaks), take 'em to Yellowstone, and generally show 'em a good time.  I don't have the authority to greenlight guests, but if you are skiing into 38 off and shorter Matt will probably want you there.  Heck, I've never heard Matt discourage anyone from coming out, but this year he's really trying to figure out how to organize the schedule so everything runs slick with no hassles and no hurt feelings.  I believe he's willing to allow non-members to ski anytime, but not behind the club boat - if this proves to be true I'm more than happy to give folks pulls behind my '93 Stars & Stripes with Stargazer.

 http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu45/jipster43/DSCN4765.jpg

JP :)

[ral]

First of all, I think that 20 members and their families might be a big crew. We made our calculations for 10 families for a theoretical maximum of 40 skiers (members and their families).

Rules. I cannot stress enough what Horton states regarding reasonable people. Most of your members and visitors will be reasonable. But the few that are not will be a PITA. Some members will think they own the place. Some regular visitors will think the same.

For schedules, get an online booking system.  www.supersaas.com is the best I could find. You need to be kind of software-savy for the initial setup, but then it works like a breeze. Be strict regarding no-shows, and be strict regarding show-up time if the lake is full. If you have issues regarding preferred times (e.g. everyone wants to ski Sat between 10 AM and noon), you will have to establish a rotation for booking that time slot.

Do not  accept lawyers as members (just joking on this one...).

Ballers. My experience might be different as I am not in the USA. I am happy to host any Baller/TWSF member that comes to Chile (maybe I will be banned after that...). That has allowed me to both meet exceptional people and have places to ski overseas. "Ballers" cannot be regular skiers of the lake, though.

Finally, almost for sure the person in charge will have rough days because of those 2-3 unreasonable people out of the 20 members. One recommendation: have a way of sacking a member when needed. One rotten apple can crap a whole case, and one crappy member can make life miserable for the other 19.

When the lake starts filling, Matt will not be that laid back. I speak from experience...

[kfennell]

I suggest only having 5 members who ski regularly, it works really well for us, then you also need to sign up some people who move away and dont ski as much, or really busy business people to help pay the bills, it works great at our lake from what I saw :)

[T-fromTO]

I am a member of a club with about 30 members and I rarely have to to wait for more than 3 skiers for my turn. Most often I just show up and go with no wait at all. I think you will be fine with the 20 members. kfennel is right about the members who pay then hardly ski.

One thing that bugs me when the club is busy is the time wasted between skiers. A guy might ski only 7 minutes, get back to the dock, but it takes 15 minutes until the next skier is out on the water. Why is that? This is totally avoidable, just need someone on the dock to "enforce".   

[colo_skier]

Number 1 rule. When its your turn to go, you go! It's not your turn to get ready!!! This one really needs to be strickly enforced. Everybody will get the hang of it if it's mandated from the start and equal for everyone. Let it start to slip and thats when the good times start to turn bad. If there is a rotation going then make sure theres a way for everyone to know when its there turn(Sign up board etc...). Also might be a good idea to find out what each and every member of the lake expects to really get out of being at the lake. You may be surprised as to how odd some people expectations of sking paradise is. Also try and laugh at he odd things that will happen it's better than getting upset and a whole lot better for you.

[jipster43]

Thanks again for all the great advice fellas!   Let me be clear - if it were up to me there would definitely be an open door to all Ballers, and it very well may be a policy that Matt adopts.  I'm just not in a position to make that call.  However, at our last meeting it sounded like it had been agreed upon that you could host non-members behind your own boat, so in that case I'll be very stoked to give any of y'all a pull!

 JP :)

[Horton]

Simple math I learned in my ski school days:

Three /20 minute rides an hour gets you only 30 rides in a 10 hr day 
Four /15 minute rides an hour gets you 40 rides in a 10 hr day

Here is the important part: If you waste an additional 6 minutes per skier you lose 10% of your ski day. How do you lose 6 minutes per skier? Looking for gloves, talking, or generally not being ready. When it is you and 2 or 3 friends, taking your time is a good thing but when there are more than 4 on a lake the rotation needs to be orderly.

This whole thing is a mine field. I would want one person who has the power to make rules and change them as reality shapes your club.

Next you have to make rules about alcohol and dogs. Don’t forget unattended children or that one wife/gilrfriend who wears a G-String and upsets the other wives.

[Horton]

FYI - Stars and Strips 93.... what could be better. Old boats are the best.

I fixed your photo. That boat is beautiful and the water looks awesome. Where is the lake?

[MattP]

FYI - Stars and Stripes 84.... thats whats better :)

 

[Horton]

No. The 93 is better.

[Chef23]

We don't have a private lake but we try to keep things moving in the course. I think a good guideline is 6 passes or 15 minutes max when there are people waiting. When we have multiple boats waiting to ski the next skier up is suited up and ready to go so there is no delay between skiers. This makes things go faster for everyone. At the ski schools I have been to they make sure everyone knows what the order is and the next skier is gloved, booted and ready to go when the previous skier drops. This keeps things moving quickly.

[Guest]

We had a private lake for several years. It worked great for the skiers but, the owner was a non-skier and generally an a___ole. He ruined it for all the skiers. I was ready to go back to the public lake.

There were several groups out of the 15 families that skied different times. There was an early morning crew, a lunch group an early afternoon group and the late afternooners. If there were 4 family members, each family had to use 1 spot in the rotation. (if there were 5 people in the rotation, it would take 20 pulls for all 4 family members to get a set). It never worked out that way because other members in the rotation would not take that many sets. If a family wanted to ski in rotation then they would need to buy a membership for each member. Gas was always a problem. Some one would bring a 5 gallon can and 3 skiers wanting 2 sets each. NOT. Many times I would bring 5 gallons and ski 1 set, this is easily good for 2 sets. Show up the next day and POOF no gas.Do the math. Years ago we had a 300 gallon gas can that we used. Each set was a mark for the member, guests, family etc. At the end of the tank we would order a fill up and total everyone's number of sets. Then we would divide the total number into the cost of filling up the tank. Voila, we had a "cost per set. Multiply cost per set x number of sets and that gave a total dollar figure that each member owed. We always had gas and it was always fair down to the penny. Members watched their sets closely and collected from their guests accordingly.

I leased the lake the boat, we had a new boat every year. Always in warranty and always up-to-date. We split the maintenence and costs. If there was a loss the next year it did not cost much because it was split 15 ways. I worked it out. Insurance was included in the lease as was a detail at the end of the year.

It always worked better if skiers were on the dock and ready to go. Skiing out of the boat takes too much time.

6 pass sets, or 2 falls. When the skier went through the gates, it counts as a pass. When there wasn't a line, it didn't matter how many passes were taken as long as the skiers that were there were in agreement.

It can be a pleasureable experience BUT, private lake ski groups always work better if there is a lake owner involved that skis. He can make and enforce the rules.

[skibug]

My BIGGEST pet peeves in our club is wasted down time between sets and people skiing too long / multiple tries at their challange line length; especially during the afterwork hours.  I think there is some benefit to having private owners; especially if you run two boats at a time.  You can be suited up, in the water, and ready to go as the other boat completes its set.  This greatly reduces down time between sets.  5 -6 minutes between sets throughout the evening adds up to about an hour of lost day light. 

[6balls]

You guys are making me feel really good about "the swamp".  My boat, co-owned lift/dock/2 courses w/one ski partner, rental payed to property owner annually.  Ski together most often, if one can't make it or want to bring a considerate guest or two, no problem. 

Wipe the boat, keep some gas in her and we're good.  Downside is some backwash off the shore, some buoy replacement d/t muscrats, and some buoy adjustments due to porta courses sitting on a muck bottom.  Those seem like bigger issues until I think about running a club...ugh.

Ski w/my bro at a club site at times.  Seems like people knock off buoys and don't replace, treat the boat like crap, leave it w/no gas etc.  It's that kind of thing that makes me never want to buy a club boat or ski school boat.

On a side note, both those classic Pro-star's are cool as hell.

 

 

  

[lpskier]

I knew Jipster43's boat had Stargazer. I could see the Perfect Ass.

[Horton]

HamBone,

What is the data on gas per ride? Do you now have a good rule of thumb?

As a non-boat onwer I think I should bring 5 gal per set to pay for my skiing and help the boat owner. (hope SkiWest Charlie does not read this ...) I am lucky that some think my coaching as value..... suckers

[eleeski]

OB Ral and Horton are off the mark with their love of strict rules. The Shrimp Farm ran really well for years with no rules at all. Write me a check, sign the release and play nice. Worked great, expenses got covered and skiers improved. Relax about timed runs and some trickers and wakeboarders might pay some bills. I'm old. I don't need an extra hour of skiing, I need to enjoy my time. My lake worked and my members are friends. And I think I'm a pretty good skier. Even if I coach skiing narrow. Eric

[ForrestGump]

Same as Eric.  There are 13 skiers at our lake, ranging in age from 8 to 55. There are times when all 13 are there plus a few friends.  No rules. Just be ready and alternate boats. There are generally only 1 or 2 days a year where we get in each other's way. 

[lottawatta]

More members = more headaches.  Less members = more fun.  I tell all my members up front: I am not in the business of running a ski lake.  If they put me in the business of running a ski lake by mediating disputes, or catering to thier needs, they will be asked to leave. I set reasonable rules. I expect help getting ready for and during tournaments / clinics / etc.  I only ask people to join if I think they will be a good fit and get along with everyone else. Every ski club needs a couple of people (besides the owner/s) who are are ready to get their hands dirty and take an equal interest in getting work done. If all the work is left to the owner, it makes for a bad situation for all.  I tell my club members they are NOT paying to ski at my lake, they are simply sharing in my expenses in exchange for use of the water. There is no way anyone could ever convince me that a ski club with 20 members+ familes can coexist peacefully on a sigle lake site.  My max is ten single / family memberships (each membership gets you one spot in the rotation), which works out to about 20 active skiers.  I am in the third incarnation of a ski club at my lake (2011 will be my 18th season of lake ownership), and before lake ownership I started a club on public water, so my opinions come from lessons learned. I have offered a club boat in the past, but few members saw an advantage to it as everyone had their own at the time. We have been lucky in the fact that some members like to ski afternoons, some ski only evenings, some ski only weekends when many of us are away at tournaments, so there are very few times when you show up to the lake and don't get to ski all the sets you want. I have a great group of members.  Everyone gets along, everyone contributes to the work, and problems are minimal.

 Jipster: my advice to private lake operators is to make the club just large enough to get the work done, keep the place up, and keep your direct expenses paid. If you are trying to make money, or make the lake pay for itself, the lake will be your second job. ONE person MUST be in charge. Shared responsibility for rules enforcement is a recipe for really bad feelings between ski buddies, disolution of partnerships, and alienation of friends and members. Simply posting the rules at the starting dock and expecting everyone to follow them doesn't work.

Good luck in finding 20 people and their familes that can get along on and off the water and everyone still get their ski time in.

offering my 2 cents: lottawatta

[9400]

35 members? that's a small tournament!

[eleeski]

Waterskiing is dying. We missed out on wakeboards. There are hardly any young adults skiing after college. Private lake policies have been blamed for some of the decline of skiing. Thirty plus active members is more about the club than the skiing. I ski my sites so my focus is skiing and fun. Not efficiency and money.

In its heyday the Shrimp Farm had ten boats and we were busy only a couple of days a year. We developed quite a few Regional contenders but didn't make a lot of money. I may be wrong but I'm not all wrong.

Eric

[jipster43]

Again, thanks for all the input!  It is duly noted.  How do you resolve issues of preferred ski times?  I'm assuming early morning before work and late afternoon after work will be high demand hours.

 

Horton, the S&S is pictured at Lake Cushman, Washington - due west of Seattle and across Puget Sound nestled in the Olympic Mtns. It's about an hour's drive from anywhere of consequence, so it doesn't get bad except for weekends.  Sometimes not even then.  It was magical when I was growing up, but now I live in Bozeman - 12 hours away, so we only make it out there one week out of the summer.

 

JP :)

[Guest]

After a stint with a private lake, I realize how much more that I enjoy the public lake. I have great ski buddies. 5 are excellent drivers. We all get along and have fun. Usually, there is a skier waiting on the next boat's platform and is ready to go. We ski about 5-6 per hour and if we are really boogying we can pull 7. When it gets too dark to ski, we hang out for a bit and have a few chilly ones. Then we load out the boats, wipe them down and head home. We love the lake. We are lake people. We have the option of going down the lake and just ripping some turns. Back to our roots. It doesn't get any better.

BTW Horton, My Malibu burns 2 gallons per hour at 55K. just under 4 gallons at 58K. There is a big difference in the fuel use and speeds.

[boarditup]

You have to establish a culture out of the gate.  I keep a lid on whiners and sea lawyers.  If you are not a happy person, find another place to ski.  I don't believe that skiing is dying, but evolving.  Some of the old, crusty skiers that have scared off most of the younger skiers need to leave the sport and are a little at a time.  Where those people are scarce, waterskiing does well because it is a lot of fun for kids and families.  Of course, I lump wake sports in with waterskiing.  If you look at total participation numbers, we are not dying but are fragmenting.  The goal of the rules should be safety first, fun second, and organization third.  Most people will get along if they know they cannot inflict themselves on others.  As soon as that is tolerated, all bets are off.

Happy people want to be with happy people. Get rid of the unhappy people and you are left with happy people.  Just be sure to tell them exactly why they are no longer included.  You are doing them a favor - although they will be mad about it.

 

[Jody_Seal]

Ham you hit the nail!! Even though I ski about 30% of the time over at Cory's the other 70% is at Deerpoint lake where it is public and we have a lot of fun. some times we have to put up with wake hoppers and some times we have to put up with tuber-freeks. but for all and all we operate 6-8 passes the next skier is waiting on the platform ready to go. One thing we do is see to it everyone has a chance to ski at both the private site and public "no on left behind".

Agreed their are a lot of Anal old whinny skiers left in the sport and they have run a number of potential young skiers off with a bad experiance's. If you want to ski with me remember to bring a smile and a passion for the lake life and take the snivilling elswhere.

[skibug]

There is something to be said about rythm and tempo as well; it doesn't have to be a blistering pace...but it needs to be a consistent, reasonable pace to the rotation.

[RichardDoane]

At the Ski Park, there are 4 owners, and the rest of us are "renters". The rented times are weekdays 8am - 5pm, and weekends 8 to noon. The owners can ski anytime there's an open time slot, and after the rented hours. When you "rent" a time slot, it's yours to ski in every week. During the months of April through September, you can only ski in your time slot, but in the off season it's open to all members any day. You supply your own boat, gas, and crew. Over 10 years ago I started with just one hour on a Tuesday afternoon, and our slot had grown to a 5 hour slot, but has now diminished. Everyone is supposed to be AWSA, and all boats insured naming the Lake as "add'l insured". At the Broho Lake, the memberships are limited in number to prevent over crowding. It's based on family groups, and you can ski any day/any time, or just weekdays. As others have mentioned, the time wasted between skiers must be minimized, and "happy skiers" are what we all strive to be.

[RichardDoane]

I liked the time slot schedule because I could build the rest of my week's activities around it (work, kids stuff, etc.).  But if you're without a group you're sunk. 

[LeonL]

I've never given the "time slot" method much thought.  It would seem to cramp the style of our members.  I much prefer that people be able to come whenever the mood strikes them and stay as long as they want.  BTW we have (as of last season) 2 families of 4 skiers each; 1 family of 3 skiers; 1 family of 2 skiers, and 6 single memberships for a total of 19 skiers.  If everyone happened to be here at the same time there would be a long time between sets, but that never seems to happen.  We ski by boat rotations, so for the family of 4 it would take 4 rotations of everyone skiing before they got all of them a set.  Out fee schedule is $700 for individual skier and head of household, with $75 for each additional skier in the family, living in that household.  We once had an option for a discount if one was willing to help with grounds maintenance, but that caused more problems that it was worth.  (complaints about "he's not keeping up his area" or "he didn't mow last week".)  Also I've discovered that I spent more time maintenancing the equipment than it does for me to do all the mowing. People just don't take care of equipment very well.  Obviously I'm not in it to make a profit, just meet expenses and try to make a few improvements along the way. I have a few rules, and for the most part we don't have many problems.  Had a few last year and I need to crack down a bit this season.

[jipster43]

For those of you who do use time slots, how did you determine who got which time slots?  Y'all are gonna' make me look good at our next club meeting.

JP :)

[T-fromTO]

It seems like there are 2 types of ski clubs being discussed here. One type where there is a club boat and another type where the members bring their own boat. I don't think these two types can be lumped together and run the same way.

The club boat variety can sustain 30 members because there are not boat loads of families showing up. Members typically come alone for a set or two before work, at lunch or after work.

As for the time slot thing, I don't see how on earth that could work. People would be late, no shows, wanting to switch etc. You'd spend more time trying to figure out the time slots than skiing! And what about the weather? Say you book a time slot and a lightening storm comes up just then, you don't get to ski that day. Weather conditions are hugely important in this sport and I don't see how one could work time slots around that.

[RichardDoane]

Time slots at the Ski Park are sold to an individual, and he/she determine who's in the group. Referred to as the "principle", they pay the lake owners and then collect from their skiers. As people decide to not renew their slot, it becomes available, and a seniority basis is used. The reason I started with a Tuesday afternoon slot, is that was the only hour available at the time. From that hour we expanded as the groups in front of us, or after us gave up their slots. If the weather sucks, you're screwed, hence the need for heaters, hot water showers, and rain tops for the boat. If you're late, you screwed yourself as there's no make ups. It's a very structured system, but works very well. It's nice to know that when you get to the lake, it's all yours for the next couple of hours.

[eleeski]

Ski Park is one of the older sites. The time slot system allowed very open use of the site during your time. Most skiers in the Seattle area that I know spent time at Ski Park - even the casual skiers. By exposing so many guests to the sport (you really want your expensive time slot filled so invite a guest!) Ski Park and it's time slot system significantly advanced the sport.

Ths Shrimp Farm despite being a very remote site also had lots of guests. Our lack of rules did skew the skier development away from slalom. While many of  our skiers became very skilled slalom skiers, the sucess of the trick skiers and barefooters plus the fun the kids had was an important asset to the waterski world.

Slalom only mills that restrict passes, falls, minutes and guests are great for getting old guys their maintenence runs. But that is the perfect formula to isolate and stagnate the sport!

Note: West coast weather is very predictable so time slots can work well here. In California it is always sunny (are we ever going to get some more snow this winter?). In Washington it always rains (Zippy is the drysuit guru).

Another note: I had one rule - no tubes. I made the kids go out on kneeboards or boogie boards. After one ride they were hooked - especially if they were double or triple boarding. Tubers love it - sort of. Actually they get scared and seemed to avoid the lake after that. And the Shrimp Farm was too narrow for safe tubing. 

No rules rule!

Eric

[LeonL]

What is a going rate for a slot?  Are the slots hourly?  How many hours does the average "principal" own?

[454SS]

I realize that sometimes when you want you have a large number of people who want to ski on a lake that some rules are necessary, but in general to many rules and regulations change the whole atmosphere and culture of the sport. It becomes more about money and making sure everyone is getting there fair share, and people begin to lose sight of the reasons that they started skiing in the first place. This is bad for the sport for two reasons, one it prevents people who are interested in the sport from not participating, case in point myself. I have never learned to ski around buoys it seems like anyone who has a ski course in my area has a whole list of reasons why I can't ski at their site, we can't teach you how to ski the course it will mess up everyone's rotations, it takes years of practice to be able to drive a ski boat through this course, so and so gets this many sets at this time and he already payed, your not insured. Believe me I've heard it all. The second reason being that it drives people currently involved in the sport away from it. A good example of something like this happening is the snowboarder Craig Kelly he turned down multiple sponsorship and contract offers because he just wanted to tear up the mountain and not have to deal with the politics of having to compete in snowboarding contests. I just don't like the rules and politics of belonging to a club, I guess that kinda of makes me an outsider in this sport.

[eleeski]

Rules suck. People who make the rules necessary suck more. 454, you are welcome to come play with us- maybe you will learn the course. We are developing a club at Mecca in Southern CA. Contact me if you are a Socal native or visiting.

Eric

[danbirch]

Some rules are necessary. Here, (at Canyon Lake) we have a boat rotational "rule", and 6 passes = 1 turn "rule". These are important to help ensure that everyone will get his/her turn, within reason. We always like and encourage beginners, and it is fun to have them at the dock. Without these "rules", you might really get mad, as you could come to ski, and the others ahead of you could take all day, and leave you out. Now, that wouldn't be good, so in this case, the "rule" is what ensure's you'll be getting your turn! What's wrong with that???

[lkb]

You have to have rules. Lot of members calls for lot of rules. Few members calls for a few rules.

I try to keep it to the bare minimum of rules though. At the end of the day, I want all my members to have as much flexibility as can be allowed and everyone still enjoy the experience. But you will always have members who don't jeehaw, you'll always have some who won't do any sweat equity, some will jump at the chance to pitch in, some are observant and don't have to be reminded of simple procedures(like being ready when their slot comes up on a crowded day) some even though they probably are well-meaning people, have to be told the obvious.

But usually, it seems like all of my members have something unique and desirable that they contribute to the big picture though...be it plumbing skills, totally dependable punctuality, very positive attitude, historic knowledge of the sport...whatever it may be they all have something.

[jjackkrash]

In my experience, some rules are necessary to manage expectations and fairly distribute a scarce resource--the lake and course--but no set of rules will make up for bad attitudes or simply having too many members. For the most part, if everyone in the group has the goal of making sure everyone else gets their sets and has a good time, then everyone will have a good experience, and the rules can be applied more flexibly, unless there are too many members. If some or all in the group are just selfish or there is fighting or personalities that clash, the club experience will suck, and it will suck proportionally more with more members. Also, new people and beginners should be encouraged, but you don't want to bring a huge group of beginners at peak times when everyone is in a hurry to get in sets. That is just not fair to the group and the beginners will feel the tension and not have a good time either. At my last club there were not that many members, but we had to work around a ski school. No one ever had a problem with bringing in one beginner as a guest on any given day, but if we wanted a full-on hacker day we would call around and let everyone know in advance, and everyone was cool with with this usually. (If there are too many members, and the lake is always full, and there is no off time, then there may just not be any time for a hacker day.) What gets people upset is surprises or people who always seem to try and take advantage. I think the comments above that its the culture that counts is spot on. Good culture=good time, as long as there is not too many members.

 

454SS, ski courses are simply a scarce resource. If you really want to learn, you need to be a little bull headed and find a way to get time on one, and understand that there is some need for rules to divide up a scarce resource. Or, you can buy your own course and find a place to put it and also maintain it. Good luck with that. Either way, it may not be worth it to you to make the effort or put up with some of the hassle. I wish more courses were available to more people, but that is just not the case. I think its worth it to make the effort and find the right club, but its not worth it for everyone.

[jipster43]

Thanks again everyone for all the information.  It's much appreciated.

JP :)